Elio again - Saabkyle04 did a video

I am still hoping they can pull this off. I want one wrapped in Gulf livery .

Ian F wrote:

mtn wrote:

Ian F wrote: In reply to mtn: Did you watch the video?

Yeah, what about it? That is a single vehicle using what appears to be drivetrain and interior bits from a 20 year old car.

Then watch it again. Ignore the review of the car (which is pointless) and pay more attention to the interview with Elio.

You mean the parts where he makes vague unsubstantiated claims that add up to nothing but more smoke an mirrors. Or where he says he's working with the 4 largest auto suppliers who don't want to deal with small companies (not true). BTW the top 4 are Bosch, Denso, Contie and Magna. Interesting as Bosch and Denso have each covered so I'm not sure why he's need to deal with both.

Second verse, same as the first...

BTW, on the fuel economy thing- two things need to happen- got to get the drag down to be roughly 6hp at 50mph (half as much as a good car right now), and the engine needs to make 6hp really efficiently. Which isn't as easy at it seems.

Possible to do it, but certainly not easy.

In reply to mtn:

In some ways I agree - I don't see it either. But at the end of the day, it's his ass on the line and his name on the car and it seems he's busting his butt to make it happen.

I'm not sure where the "end of the year" deadline comes from. Elio seems to have avoided setting any time goals and seems to be just letting things develope at their own pace. This makes sense as there are far too many variables he doesn't have control over what could affect any self-imposed dead-lines. Maybe we'll see somethign by 2016, maybe we won't.

In many ways, I'm the target market for a car like this. I need to have a large vehcile to haul my toys around, but I also have a long commute where I'm usually just moving myself. The marketing idea behind the Elio is that the commuter car is so cheap, I could have both.

mtn wrote: But I really don't believe anything he says. At the end of the day, I don't see how he can produce this for something that is significantly cheaper than a real car, and I also don't see how it has any real advantage over a real car unless he can do it for a good price. Do we really think it would be better than a Chevy Spark at $13,000? I doubt it. So what advantage does it have? At current prices--actually, even at European prices--it doesn't have near enough gas mileage advantage, unless it can somehow do an electric engine and battery for really cheap.

IF the Elio really costs 1/2 what the Spark does, and gets nearly double the mileage, that is a pretty significant difference. $500 a year less in fuel costs (15k miles/yr) and $6500 initial purchase makes for a very large difference in TCO over the course of a few years.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Thing is, I hear and see a lot of folks calling his claims and ideas as B.S., but they offer no more evidence to the contrary than he is offering.

To me, it all sounds like a lot of chest-beating I don't understand. Why do you care? Do you have money on the line? Did you place bets in Vegas on when Elio will fold? Elio is an optimist. Hell, anyone who tried to start a car company from scratch would have to be. He's going to focus on the good bits and gloss over the bad.

Is there a chance Elio will fail? Sure. Of course. What he's attempting is incredibly difficult with a high failure rate. What I don't understand is why people who have no vested interest in the project want to do the internet equivalent of throwing dirt on him when he's not in the grave yet.

ProDarwin wrote:

mtn wrote: But I really don't believe anything he says. At the end of the day, I don't see how he can produce this for something that is significantly cheaper than a real car, and I also don't see how it has any real advantage over a real car unless he can do it for a good price. Do we really think it would be better than a Chevy Spark at $13,000? I doubt it. So what advantage does it have? At current prices--actually, even at European prices--it doesn't have near enough gas mileage advantage, unless it can somehow do an electric engine and battery for really cheap.

**IF** the Elio really costs 1/2 what the Spark does, and gets nearly double the mileage, that is a pretty significant difference. $500 a year less in fuel costs (15k miles/yr) and $6500 initial purchase makes for a *very* large difference in TCO over the course of a few years.

Here's the conundrum- If you are driving 15k a year in a car, would you want a small car like this, or something more comfortable?

I drive roughly that, and am tired of getting beat up in a small car. This car is even smaller. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would benefit from a B(Fiesta/fit) sized car, but end up with a C/D(Fusion/Accord) car for the comfort.

Then the other question- this car is for short commutes in tight spaces- which implies the owner isn't doing 15k/year. So for the target audience that they are suggesting- the fuel economy benefit will be less than $500/year.

At least in high volumes.

Alfa - my impression of the target audience is the opposite. I see it as a solution for someone with a long highway commute. Someone who is doing 20, maybe 30k a year. Purely for the reason you are describing above... the fuel economy benefit will be much larger.

Ian F wrote: In reply to Adrian_Thompson: Thing is, I hear and see a lot of folks calling his claims and ideas as B.S., but they offer no more evidence to the contrary than he is offering. To me, it all sounds like a lot of chest-beating I don't understand. Why do you care? Do you have money on the line? Did you place bets in Vegas on when Elio will fold? Elio is an optimist. Hell, anyone who tried to start a car company from scratch would have to be. He's going to focus on the good bits and gloss over the bad. Is there a chance Elio will fail? Sure. Of course. What he's attempting is incredibly difficult with a high failure rate. What I don't understand is why people who have no vested interest in the project want to do the internet equivalent of throwing dirt on him when he's not in the grave yet.

Agreed. Let's watch. It's a neat idea.

alfadriver wrote:

ProDarwin wrote:

mtn wrote: But I really don't believe anything he says. At the end of the day, I don't see how he can produce this for something that is significantly cheaper than a real car, and I also don't see how it has any real advantage over a real car unless he can do it for a good price. Do we really think it would be better than a Chevy Spark at $13,000? I doubt it. So what advantage does it have? At current prices--actually, even at European prices--it doesn't have near enough gas mileage advantage, unless it can somehow do an electric engine and battery for really cheap.

**IF** the Elio really costs 1/2 what the Spark does, and gets nearly double the mileage, that is a pretty significant difference. $500 a year less in fuel costs (15k miles/yr) and $6500 initial purchase makes for a *very* large difference in TCO over the course of a few years.

Here's the conundrum- If you are driving 15k a year in a car, would you want a small car like this, or something more comfortable? I drive roughly that, and am tired of getting beat up in a small car. This car is even smaller. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would benefit from a B(Fiesta/fit) sized car, but end up with a C/D(Fusion/Accord) car for the comfort. Then the other question- this car is for short commutes in tight spaces- which implies the owner isn't doing 15k/year. So for the target audience that they are suggesting- the fuel economy benefit will be less than $500/year. At least in high volumes.

it really depends on the way the suspension is set up. If you notice, it has a fairly long wheelbase... so with the right spring and dampener set up, it might have a fairly comfy ride

ProDarwin wrote: Alfa - my impression of the target audience is the opposite. I see it as a solution for someone with a long highway commute. Someone who is doing 20, maybe 30k a year. Purely for the reason you are describing above... the fuel economy benefit will be much larger.

Ok, but who is that? Everyone I can think of would either fly or is carrying too much stuff and/or people to be in something that small. Otherwise, don't you think the Insight would have taken off?

I'm sure there are folks like that out there, but I am extremely doubtful that there are enough to produce it in a scale that makes it anything less than $10,000.

EDIT: Just realized that would have been me 7 months ago, I was at 20,000 miles a year. I guess I may have been interested if it was there, but I know think the fuel savings wouldn't have worked out compared to a CR-Z or a Volt. One of which was about 3 times the vehicle of what the Elio may be, the other a lot more fun and available for $11,000 used.

In reply to alfadriver:

That is an individual question each buyer will have to make, likely dependant on one's comfort to gas budget ratio/desires. It's sort of like the veggie-oil for diesel thing. For some, the idea of saving a lot on fuel costs out-weighs the hassles of dealing with veggie oil. For others, it does not. How many guys here use $1000 beaters as their DD?

mtn wrote:

ProDarwin wrote: Alfa - my impression of the target audience is the opposite. I see it as a solution for someone with a long highway commute. Someone who is doing 20, maybe 30k a year. Purely for the reason you are describing above... the fuel economy benefit will be much larger.

Ok, but who is that? Everyone I can think of would either fly or is carrying too much stuff and/or people to be in something that small. Otherwise, don't you think the Insight would have taken off? I'm sure there are folks like that out there, but I am extremely doubtful that there are enough to produce it in a scale that makes it anything less than $10,000. EDIT: Just realized that would have been me 7 months ago, I was at 20,000 miles a year. I guess I may have been interested if it was there, but I know think the fuel savings wouldn't have worked out compared to a CR-Z or a Volt. One of which was about 3 times the vehicle of what the Elio may be, the other a lot more fun and available for $11,000 used.

There are lots of people that have crazy long commutes. Several have already posted in this thread with ~80 miles a day. The car would work well for them for sure. Just like the Insight would. It doesn't mean they will buy it though. I'm not arguing that its going to do well, just pointing out that it is certainly a viable solution for the commute crazy.

I fail to see how the fuel savings wouldn't have worked out compared to a CR-Z/Volt. And even if fuel costs were roughly equal, you're talking about a car that is 1/3 the price.

In reply to Ian F:

I don't hate on the idea of something like the Elio its just that the Elio has been around for close to 7 years now with no real progress.

A couple of years ago someone linked to a line by line study of the business plan debunking each and every step.

Many people, in and outside the auto industry, questioned Tesla, but they've done it so far, although arguably they are an energy company who happens to sell a few cars. But guess what? In the time Tesla has gone from talking about making cars to having launched several ever better and successful models, Elio is still talking about its first with the same unanswered questions. I have no doubt that either an existing technical manufacturing corporation and or a proven successful business person could launch a company making a vehicle like this if they thought there was a market, but 7 years down the line all Elio has to show is a tired prototype with a 30 year old engine design in it. To me that reaks of optimism over ability.

Also, if a company wanted to make something like the Elio, then why not market it in a country where gas isn't dirt cheap and they have space issues in their cities? Ibsee the market for something like this. Also, why not make it electric?

In reply to ProDarwin:

Lots and lots of people with long commutes.

And IF long distance fuel economy was THE thing, the B sized car would be all over the freeway. It's not. Which is my point- the people who want +40mpg in spite of the comfort seem to be about the same number of people who are enthusiests- which is to say not that many- under 50k/year. Factor in the apparent want of utility- # seats, trunk size, etc- and having a car that is pretty much only fuel economy over long distances gets less.

That's why I think it's more a city car than a long commute car. Where the SMART car is right now.

Ian F wrote: In reply to alfadriver: That is an individual question each buyer will have to make, likely dependant on one's comfort to gas budget ratio/desires. It's sort of like the veggie-oil for diesel thing. For some, the idea of saving a lot on fuel costs out-weighs the hassles of dealing with veggie oil. For others, it does not. How many guys here use $1000 beaters as their DD?

I take no data points from this board for who and what they buy. This board is very not representative of the new car market, especially one that needs to be big enough to sell 100,000 cars per year. At least that many.

As I've pointed out- based on actual sales and average commute distances, the C/D car is chosen over more economical cars, and have for decades. Comfort is very important.

alfadriver wrote: And IF long distance fuel economy was THE thing, the B sized car would be all over the freeway.

Correct. Again, I'm not saying its going to be successful. Its viable, and makes sense financially... but that doesn't mean people will want it.

And RE: B cars... with B cars having so much frontal area now and short (length) bodies, they don't really outperform large sedans on the highway by any significant amount (or at all). So I don't blame someone for getting a Mazda 6 (40mpg highway) vs. a Mazda 2 (35mpg highway) for a long commute.

FWIW, when driving alone, I don't find a big car any more comfortable than a small one. I do find a big car much more annoying to drive than a small one.

IMO it would be foolish to market this for dense city areas. Many B cars are going to have the same footprint as this with 10x the utility (A Mazda 2 is 4" shorter and the same width)

ProDarwin wrote: FWIW, when driving alone, I don't find a big car any more comfortable than a small one. I *do* find a big car much more annoying to drive than a small one.

Same here- I don't see myself as someone that is being marketed to on a massive basis. The three top selling vehicles are pick ups, C/D cars, and C/D platform Crossovers. The latter has surpassed the explorer thanks to higher gas prices. None of those are even close to my radar.

I'm a massive small car fan, and always have been. But I can't see myself in an Elio.

I'm a guy with a long commute (raises hand) 72 miles round trip. I would not buy an Elio, or any plain vanilla boring commuter car for that matter. I ride my k1300s most of them time and when weather is crap I take my truck or one of our other cars. I know some of my fellow commuters would be interested in something like this, but most would not.....It's just too much of a compromise IMO. They would rather commute in a mainstream 40+ mpg commuter car while I simply prefer my 45mpg 175hp bike.

ProDarwin wrote:

alfadriver wrote: And IF long distance fuel economy was THE thing, the B sized car would be all over the freeway.

Correct. Again, I'm not saying its going to be successful. Its viable, and makes sense financially... but that doesn't mean people will want it. And RE: B cars... with B cars having so much frontal area now and short (length) bodies, they don't really outperform large sedans on the highway by any significant amount (or at all). So I don't blame someone for getting a Mazda 6 (40mpg highway) vs. a Mazda 2 (35mpg highway) for a long commute.

Several B cars are getting high 40's on the freeway inc the 3cl Fiesta at 47mpg. They are selling well enough, but not in the #'s to indicate people are buying them just for their freeway fuel econ.

In reply to alfadriver:

Most new sportbikes all have catalysts now.....even though they typically had better emissions without it all than contemporary cars.

In reply to Cotton:

Lucky bugger, I only get 26-30mpg from my bikes......granted, one makes the same as yours without torque and the other one probably makes double everything. LoL

Not that I give a E36 M3 as I drive less than 40mi a day.

yamaha wrote: In reply to alfadriver: Most new sportbikes all have catalysts now.....even though they typically had better emissions without it all than contemporary cars.

Uh, no, they don't have better emissions than contemporary cars. Not sure where anyone can come up with the idea that a non-catalyzed engine is cleaner than one that is, regardless of displacement. Cars in the US quite a bit cleaner than bikes. (I'll check tomorrow when I get to work, but without a doubt, the motorcycle emissions are much easier than cars. Just having a catalyst is good.

I guess if we are comparing 70's cars to 70's bikes. But not 2015 bikes to 2015 cars.

edit- looking the rules up- bikes after 2010 have to meet: HC + NOx 0.8 g/km (1.28 g/mi) and CO of 12g/mk (19.2 g/mi)

The average federal car right now is closer to 1/10 of that.

And I'm sure Elio will take full advantage of that.

In reply to alfadriver:

Strangeness......most I've seen will easily pass a sniffer.