Ethics of Real Estate Investment, NIMYism and the Housing Crisis

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

...and LOTS of landlords DO CARE.

As a person who has spent most of my adult life giving my tenants the absolute best I was able to at the absolute lowest price I could afford, you have no idea how offensive that comment is.

 

Please go visit any slum area. And see what I'm talking about. 
I do happen to agree that good property management means long term capital gains. But either a significant portion of your fellow land lords didn't get the message, or they don't believe the message. 
    I had an uncle who's whole career was short term gains.  He died a very rich man. But extremely lonely.   He'd use all the equity in his property to put a down payment on other property.  Maintenance was seldom attended to and only enough to keep the city off his back. 
      
I'll grant you there are good landlords out there. My father tried hard to be one. Lawns were mowed sidewalks shoveled  etc etc ( by me ). 

In reply to

Visit a slum? You think that represents the majority of land lords? That’s like going to a VW repair shop and proclaiming most cars are unreliable.

93EXCivic said:

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

I don't have a personal wage problem. I have no debt other then a house, two nice salaries in the household and plenty in savings plus a job that is in high demand particularly in the town I live in. Really I should be fine with status quo. It is working great for me but I see too many of my friends just getting by/ struggling despite having college educations, despite trying to make good choices with their money, despite having jobs that in previous times in American history would have made for a comfortable life (or had jobs before Covid hit). 

Also we as a society need a lot of the jobs that are in these lower paying brackets. We need food workers, we need grocery store workers, we need janitors to be a functioning society. 

I understand that it's natural to look at what other generations have had, and expect that to be normal, but I think it's pretty clear at this point that the US from 1945-1975ish was a historical anomaly. It's a tough pill to swallow, but we probably shouldn't base expectations for our lives on something that only happens once or twice every thousand years or so where a single nation has most of the global wealth. 

After WW2, the US was the only standing super power on the planet, and they conveniently had massive manufacturing abilities and the military might to police global trade. All the other major economies on the planet turned to the US for their stuff as they rebuilt and money flooded into the US creating the middle class. From that time, as those economies have rebuilt, they've become less dependent on the US. Simultaneously, the US has gotten very comfortable buying stuff from those other nations. The end result is all of that excess money returning to a more even distribution across the globe, and the middle class in the US is eroded. Basically, we're moving closer to historical norms where those at the top have most of the wealth and comfort while most people have more difficult existences. It's more than a US issue, its global.

pheller said:

How do we build more houses in the places where people want to live?

How long can you do that before it becomes a place that people don't want to live?

You're bothered by the people from outside of your area that are buying real estate and driving the price up. But those people are doing that because:

1) It's cheaper than where they're coming from (Coastal states with super high cost of living, or foreign countries with  unappealing local investments)

2) or there's something about the location that makes them willing to pay more to live in that place (this is just supply/demand, and obviously the wealthiest can afford to pay these premiums more easily than others)

There's no historical precedent for the lowest third of earners to be able to afford home ownership, and that's ok. In places where home prices are high, it's often a better deal to rent anyway. 

In reply to 93EXCivic :

I don't have a personal wage problem. I have no debt other then a house, two nice salaries in the household and plenty in savings plus a job that is in high demand particularly in the town I live in. Really I should be fine with status quo. It is working great for me but I see too many of my friends just getting by/ struggling despite having college educations, despite trying to make good choices with their money, despite having jobs that in previous times in American history would have made for a comfortable life (or had jobs before Covid hit). 

Also we as a society need a lot of the jobs that are in these lower paying brackets. We need food workers, we need grocery store workers, we need janitors to be a functioning society. 

Working hard and being in a profession that society needs is great, but by no means entitles a person to success. We need janitors, food workers, and grocery store workers (for now.) But anyone can do those jobs. And none of those jobs should be careers, unless you plan on moving up in the company. But if your life’s plan is to be a grocery store checker for 45 years, don’t complain about what you don’t have. Just be thankful your job hasn’t been taken by a self check kiosk yet. As SVREX has said repeatedly, make yourself indispensable, make yourself valuable. If you are just going to be a body, well, anyone can do that. I’ll add to that two other vitally important skills to get ahead. You need to be aggressive, and push for raises and promotions- being mindful that you better have the job performance to back it up. The meek may inherit the Earth, but they won’t get many raises or promotions in the mean time. Don’t be afraid to negotiate. Why should your employer value you if you don’t value yourself? You need to be willing to take risks, get out of your comfort zone. Seek out jobs that have more opportunity rather than which entry level job is better. 

In reply to STM317 :

Except we are still one of the wealthiest nations in terms of GDP per capita. The policies of the US since Regan have just built a larger and larger income inequality in this nation. Leaving more and more people behind. Which is why populalist politicians have been winning more votes. It is not healthy for a nation to continue down this path. If you look through history, you see what happens when the citizens of a country feel trodden on by the upper class 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I am not an entry level worker. 

In reply to 93EXCivic :

You are missing the point. 
 

It doesn't matter if these things apply to you personally. They are still the answer to your question, and the solution that needs to be communicated to people who are feeling down trodden. 
 

This isn't a government problem. It's a personal pride and action problem. Yes, the gap is widening. But at the core of that is an attitude that someone else needs to take care of me. The government should fix this, my employer is at fault. The answer is that I am my own worst enemy, and if I allow it to, inertia will consume me.

If you have a concern for others in your generation, that's what needs to be shared with them.

93EXCivic said:

In reply to STM317 :

Except we are still one of the wealthiest nations in terms of GDP per capita. The policies of the US since Regan have just built a larger and larger income inequality in this nation. Leaving more and more people behind. Which is why populalist politicians have been winning more votes. It is not healthy for a nation to continue down this path. If you look through history, you see what happens when the citizens of a country feel trodden on by the upper class 

It's not just the US. Populist/nationalist politicians are increasingly common in a bunch of the prominent European nations too. I won't get any deeper into that tangent due to board rules.

STM317 said:

pheller said:

How do we build more houses in the places where people want to live?

How long can you do that before it becomes a place that people don't want to live?

 

You're bothered by the people from outside of your area that are buying real estate and driving the price up. But those people are doing that because:

1) It's cheaper than where they're coming from (Coastal states with super high cost of living, or foreign countries with  unappealing local investments)

2) or there's something about the location that makes them willing to pay more to live in that place (this is just supply/demand, and obviously the wealthiest can afford to pay these premiums more easily than others)

There's no historical precedent for the lowest third of earners to be able to afford home ownership, and that's ok. In places where home prices are high, it's often a better deal to rent anyway. 

A better deal to rent?  Perhaps in the short term. Never in the long term.  What home ownership does is fix your payments for the next 30 years.   Inflation will constantly raise rents. A mortgage will remain the same. 
Rent will never build you equity. A mortgage will.   Yes taxes can and will increase ( prop 13 in California even helps there)  but usually at a rate equal to inflation. But if it's higher and you object,  run for city council. No reason a city can't implement their own prop 13. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to 93EXCivic :

....This isn't a government problem. It's a personal pride and action problem. Yes, the gap is widening. ...

Just to be realistic, unfettered, un-regulated, capitalism will eventually result it one person with all the wealth / power (e.g. the barons of the early US). The US of course could in no way be considered un-regulated.  As with most things it's a matter of where you draw that line.  Too much or too little will only make things worse, but government does have a roll here.

I honesty don't know an entirely realistic solution to the piling on at the top issue. Heavy taxing is only effective if they have no where else to go (unlikely).  I would like to see some concept that encourages / eases competition in areas that are clearly getting close to monopolization. E.g. the only reason Amazon still has a $20 rather than $40 free shipping minimum is because Walmart has a $20 minimum (btw, no, I am not naive enough to believe any of it is "free" and realize that if I pay for shipping, I am paying for something that is already built into the price in most cases).

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

I am sorry but I am never going to argee that the whole solution is for people to pull themselves up by the boot straps. Sure should personal pride be part of the solution. But I believe most people want to work and would like to better then themselves already. But at the very least there needs to education reforms to make it easier to do that. I don't think that is enough but that is the very least that I think must be done. College debt is a boot hanger hanging around too many people's necks and our lower education is not doing enough to prep children for the working world.

I as a general rule think that a high school education should include an introduction to the trades always.

A lot of people sleep on that career option

In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :

Agreed. Vocation programs seem to get constantly cut and high schools only metric of success seems to be how many kids go to college

93EXCivic said:

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

I am sorry but I am never going to argee that the whole solution is for people to pull themselves up by the boot straps. Sure should personal pride be part of the solution. But I believe most people want to work and would like to better then themselves already. But at the very least there needs to education reforms to make it easier to do that. I don't think that is enough but that is the very least that I think must be done. College debt is a boot hanger hanging around too many people's necks and our lower education is not doing enough to prep children for the working world.

No disagreement.  Education needs vast improvement.  But even education is controlled at the local level, and people need to get out to the board meetings and make their needs known.

I spent 15 years of my life volunteering to help people in third world countries have better housing.   I couldn't tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.  Most had no boots.  Many had no feet.

But sitting back and crying "They" should fix this is" absolutely not a solution either.

The answer when I was working with impoverished people in housing was "teaching to fish".  But we are in a very low time, where everyone has forgotten how to fend for themselves.  And the truth is you can't help someone who won't help themselves.

(I don't think I've ever used so many adages in a single post). 

93EXCivic said:

In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :

Agreed. Vocation programs seem to get constantly cut and high schools only metric of success seems to be how many kids go to college

It's kinda sad really. There's people that are struggling in life making $8 an hour and I'm offering $20 to start out.

But a lot of people somehow view the trades as distasteful and that you can't succeed in life. I literally had a talk with someone that went a little like this:

I have no money

Have you considered the trades?

You can't make a living there!

Tell me a little about yourself life and how it's going. Housing? General stuff?

I rent a 2 bedroom apartment with 5 people . We do ok but I'm running out of stuff to pawn, the Xbox my mom got me for Xmas got me $100 for rent this month but I'll get it back once I can start selling blood again, you can get great money doing that!

​​​​Ok so, what about a car?

Cars are expensive man! What am i, made of money?

Ok, well let me walk you thru a bit of my life here. I own 2 houses, me and my wife have a summer car, a winter car, a few fun cars, a project car and various work trucks. I went on a 3 week vacation to Australia and routinely get 2 months off work. I have about 9 hobbies.

Dude! How do I get that?!?

I do concrete for a living.

Bro! You can't make it doing that,no one wants to dig ditches for a living!

I don't dig ditches, I finish concrete

But bro, that shiznit is hard!

How many hours do you work a day?

Well the grocery job is only 35 hours a week but the night job I have gets me another 20.

You work 55 hours a week? How much do you bring home a week?

I'm hoping for more from my main job but I'm already the guy with the most hours already. I make $350 a week take home.

I make that a day almost always. I work 30 hours or less a week usually.

Dude, no way! 

Yeah. Wanna come to work with us?

No way man! Digging ditches is how you hurt yourself! 

No one digs ditches here, it's concrete work

But my dad's uncle's friends cat once dug a ditch and all his limbs fell off, and then they exploded! Phalangic shrapnel everywhere!

That didn't happen

Yes it did! I don't wanna get hurt!

Is wasting 55 hours a week making nothing and never getting ahead ever really worth it to you? I've worked in this field for decades and I've never seen someone's limbs explode.

You can't make it in the trades, I need to go back to school and get my degree in Flower Arranging in order to get ahead, they make almost $30k a year!

Obviously embellished but you get the idea

93EXCivic said:

In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :

Agreed. Vocation programs seem to get constantly cut and high schools only metric of success seems to be how many kids go to college

Standardize test scores all they care about. 

93EXCivic said:

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

I am sorry but I am never going to agree that the whole solution is for people to pull themselves up by the boot straps. Sure should personal pride be part of the solution. But I believe most people want to work and would like to better then themselves already. But at the very least there needs to education reforms to make it easier to do that. I don't think that is enough but that is the very least that I think must be done. College debt is a boot hanger hanging around too many people's necks and our lower education is not doing enough to prep children for the working world.

There were education reforms that made it easier to go to college because people demanded it.  They made it much easier to find and qualify for the loans to do so.  Now people are complaining about those loans being a burden.  Sorry, you can't have it both ways.  Many people want to better themselves, but there are a good amount that just want to make excuses why it's not thier fault.  You can't help the 2nd group because whatever you do is never enough

In reply to 93EXCivic :

Except we are still one of the wealthiest nations in terms of GDP per capita. The policies of the US since Regan have just built a larger and larger income inequality in this nation. Leaving more and more people behind. Which is why populalist politicians have been winning more votes. It is not healthy for a nation to continue down this path. If you look through history, you see what happens when the citizens of a country feel trodden on by the upper class 

I think you can’t see the forest thru the trees.  The rich are getting richer. True. The gap between the rich and the poor is getting wider. True. But that does not mean that the lives of the middle class and the poor are getting worse- they just aren’t improving as much at those at the top. Most of those at the top are there for a reason. And most weren’t born there, most of the wealthy in our country are self made. Contrary to popular belief, we don’t have a caste system in this country- you can move from poor to middle class, to upper middle class, to wealthy. Even skip steps. Most people do that over the course of their lives. Because everyone in this country has opportunity that most humans in the history of civilization would die for (and have died for.) But many people on the bottom tend not look past their own nose, and see what is in front of them. Putting a lid on those at the top won’t bring the bottom any closer to them. It just knocks everyone back down the ladder. The problem with being on the bottom is if you only look up, you tend to forget how far you have already climbed. Our lowest wage earners have luxuries that top wage earners never would have dreamed about 70 years ago. It’s funny, so many people are concerned with society closing the income gap, and trying to figure out how to do that. But the answer has been right in front of us the whole time, and strikingly obvious to many- you close the gap one person at a time, by taking advantages of the opportunities right in front of you. 

In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :

I work in the construction industry, and can back this up 100%. The greatest concern of the dozens of contractors that I work with is finding reliable people that want to work. These are good paying jobs, with lots of opportunity to advance, but very few takers. I witness first hand motivated, hard working people shoot past better educated, higher potential but entitled and less committed employees. I also see a lot of people getting very good jobs that they are not qualified for, simply because they go for them. Many make the most of the opportunity and start a good career. But that will never happen to someone who just sits back and waits for a minimum wage hike. They will just be left in the dust, complaining how things are unfair. 

When I say things like this I often get accused of being heartless and cruel for wanting to deny people of being paid “what they are worth.” But the way I see it, is it cruel to believe in people, to see that they are capable of more than they are doing? Or is it more cruel to believe that they just aren’t good enough and would fail without outside help? 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

You are right,  but some people have been so kicked in the teeth they just put their head down and stumble through life.   On the other hand a raise in minimum wage usually results in every worker getting a pay raise. Because you can't start paying the new guy $15/ hr if the guys with experience are getting less.  How's it go?  A rising tide floats all boats?  
     There are other good decent paying jobs out there. Waste management for example. You can have a felony on your record and they will still hire you.   The stumbling block there is to get a commercial license to drive those trucks. ( usually a class B or better but should have air brake endorsement) 
   Just about anything that requires physical work has a tough time finding good employees.  

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to 93EXCivic :

Except we are still one ☝️ of the wealthiest nations in terms of GDP per capita. The policies of the US since Regan have just built a larger and larger income inequality in this nation. Leaving more and more people behind. Which is why populalist politicians have been winning more votes. It is not healthy for a nation to continue down this path. If you look through history, you see what happens when the citizens of a country feel trodden on by the upper class 

I think you can’t see the forest thru the trees.  The rich are getting richer. True. The gap between the rich and the poor is getting wider. True. But that does not mean that the lives of the middle class and the poor are getting worse- they just aren’t improving as much at those at the top. Most of those at the top are there for a reason. And most weren’t born there, most of the wealthy in our country are self made. Contrary to popular belief, we don’t have a caste system in this country- you can move from poor to middle class, to upper middle class, to wealthy. Even skip steps. Most people do that over the course of their lives. Because everyone in this country has opportunity that most humans in the history of civilization would die for (and have died for.) But many people on the bottom tend not look past their own nose, and see what is in front of them. Putting a lid on those at the top won’t bring the bottom any closer to them. It just knocks everyone back down the ladder. The problem with being on the bottom is if you only look up, you tend to forget how far you have already climbed. Our lowest wage earners have luxuries that top wage earners never would have dreamed about 70 years ago. It’s funny, so many people are concerned with society closing the income gap, and trying to figure out how to do that. But the answer has been right in front of us the whole time, and strikingly obvious to many- you close the gap one person at a time, by taking advantages of the opportunities right in front of you. 

Oh?  Can your kids get into Harvard?  You do realize that the number of open spaces for the rest of us is extremely tiny, limited by the legacies?  Straight A students from public schools usually aren't selected. Even straight A students from well respected schools can't get into top Ivy League schools.  It usually requires the right endorsement and proper  after school activities. 
   Why do you think there was such a big deal made of the admissions scandal this year?  
     

pheller said:

mtn (Forum Supporter) said:

And there we have it - A landlord who will not be a landlord where there is too much government intervention. 

 

Lets fix it by more government intervention!

Rent Control is poor solution to a problem that is much deeper. Local governments and cities are hamstringed into only having a few options to rectify housing costs for low wage workers. 

Rent Control might be leveraged by cities to create more liquidity in the housing market, allowing public entities to buy up property at discounted rates. 

I think the next big political movement is going to be "living wage" laws. Not just a minimum wage, but actually forcing employers to pay above poverty level in various cities. I don't think this any better. 

Our cities and suburbs drastically need more density. Employers need to spread the eff out a little. It's crazy how freakin packed California is with the largest number of high paying employers. 

A classic example is Jeff Bezo's  2nd richest in the world. Is paying some of his employees wages that are so low they qualify for food stamps. ( Snap) these are people required to be under close supervision so they are working at a maximum their full shift.  Yet they work for poverty wages. ( and pay taxes ) 
     He gets away with it because some states and cities are so desperate for jobs they turn a blind eye to laws that should protect.  Locations that have to offer tax breaks and subsidies paid for by the citizens of that location to attract his distribution centers.  
 Successful firms and businesses are taxed so Jeff Bezos gets richer. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Oh?  Can your kids get into Harvard?  You do realize that the number of open spaces for the rest of us is extremely tiny, limited by the legacies?  Straight A students from public schools usually aren't selected. Even straight A students from well respected schools can't get into top Ivy League schools.  It usually requires the right endorsement and proper  after school activities. 
   Why do you think there was such a big deal made of the admissions scandal this year?  
     

Thank you very much for illustrating- to the extreme- a top behavior holding many people back. So what if you can’t get into Harvard? It’s not an all or nothing proposition- Harvard is not a prerequisite to being successful and having a good life. Most successful people have not attended Ivy League colleges, or any college at all. For most of the people struggling today, not getting into Harvard is probably pretty low on the reasons for their current situations. So what is your point? Everyone should go to Harvard? If some can’t go, no one should go? Please share your solution- it’s much harder than listing problems and excuses. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

93EXCivic said:

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

I am sorry but I am never going to argee that the whole solution is for people to pull themselves up by the boot straps. Sure should personal pride be part of the solution. But I believe most people want to work and would like to better then themselves already. But at the very least there needs to education reforms to make it easier to do that. I don't think that is enough but that is the very least that I think must be done. College debt is a boot hanger hanging around too many people's necks and our lower education is not doing enough to prep children for the working world.

No disagreement.  Education needs vast improvement.  But even education is controlled at the local level, and people need to get out to the board meetings and make their needs known.

I spent 15 years of my life volunteering to help people in third world countries have better housing.   I couldn't tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.  Most had no boots.  Many had no feet.

But sitting back and crying "They" should fix this is" absolutely not a solution either.

The answer when I was working with impoverished people in housing was "teaching to fish".  But we are in a very low time, where everyone has forgotten how to fend for themselves.  And the truth is you can't help someone who won't help themselves.

(I don't think I've ever used so many adages in a single post). 

You make a valid point SVreX

Some people won't try. Maybe they have tried real hard in the past and got their teeth kicked in repeatedly. 
Maybe they don't know how. Maybe they don't have a good example. Whatever  

  But a rising tide floats all boats.  Raise the minimum wage and wages ( and prices ) go up.  Not just for those on the bottom. But everyone above .  
    The only negative I see is those who bury their savings ( bury as in a bank or other non rewarding investment )   
     Yes those living on a fixed income can suffer but that too can be dealt with.