Ethics of Real Estate Investment, NIMYism and the Housing Crisis

In reply to pheller :

While I agree with you in principle I think you are going about the wrong way.  
 People hear government this, government that, and they worry about their taxes going up.  
   Don't appeal to their better natures. Some don't care, some have fears, and they don't want to think about it.  
   Appeal to their self interests.   Taxes not paid by the wealthy have to be paid by the working class. 
    People paid not enough by an employer( minimum wage) the difference has to be made up by the rest of the tax payers.  In effect workers are subsidizing business owners.  
    Finally poorly paid people  make poor workers.  If they eat gruel, wear Goodwill,  and live in rat infested slums. They won't be reliable trustworthy or creative.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to Duke :

Think more than 1 step Duke; 

Food,  clothing,  and shelter are the minimum requirements. Any job that doesn't pay for that,  The tax payer has to make up the difference.  
  So in effect your taxes pay for his employees. 

I often say that sub-livable wages are effectively a giant unorganized corporate welfare system for this reason.

I don't know about the "near homeless" people you guys talking about.

However, I know between 2010-2020, in these 10 years, we have had over 30 friends/family move to Texas. They were all middle class, 2 job, 2 car payment, 2 kids type of households in CA. About 5 of them owned a house. Rest all lived in apartments/condos/townhomes.  Some were Toyota engineers, who couldnt afford a house in Irvine, and now doing it big in Plano.

80% moved to Dallas. Keller, Irving, Frisco etc.  All are home owners now. Many are single income now, and their SO can help with kids and give more family time Few of them, now have 2nd, 3rd, and 4th investment properties. 

20% moved to Austin. RoundRock and further north. Some have multiple properties and doing quite well. 

Whenever I see local people here saying they are struggling, can't get ahead, etc, due to foreign money, investors, etc, I always give concrete examples of above, of people I know who are making a better life elsewhere. 

I know years back, I saw lots of people sell their CA houses and go to AZ/NV. 

Last 10 years, I have seen them all go to Idaho, Montana, TX, Atlanta, TN, NC.

mr2s2000elise said:

Both of those counties - AirBnB will not be outlawed for sure in the next 10-15 years. 

Are you sure? I'm not even sure that the way things are going now that our current form of Federal Government will be around in 10 to 15 years. That is a long time. I don't really want to get political here, but I have seen things happen in the last 5 years that I never thought I would see happen in this country. Project that madness forward a decade and who knows? The angry people here could burn it all down, or we could be at war with China or Russia. A missile strike could take out a lot of real estate. Ask the investors in the Ukraine?

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

mr2s2000elise said:

Both of those counties - AirBnB will not be outlawed for sure in the next 10-15 years. 

Are you sure? I'm not even sure that the way things are going now that our current form of Federal Government will be around in 10 to 15 years. That is a long time. I don't really want to get political here, but I have seen things happen in the last 5 years that I never thought I would see happen in this country. Project that madness forward a decade and who knows? The angry people here could burn it all down, or we could be at war with China or Russia. Who knows? A missile strike could take out a lot of real estate. Ask the investors in the Ukraine?

Of course none of us have crystal balls.  

My reasosing, and being part of properties where AirBnB have been outlawed, there were local pressure due to overcrowding or property values were so high, that other well off people didn't want to live next to my revolving door property (I don't blame them - heck I wouldn't want to either).

   The two places I am talking about, there are no real local jobs (good paying ones). There isn't over crowding.  There aren't rich people lounging around. They are vacation spots for upper middle class, and are decently remote (compared to a LA or NYC). 

AirBnB feeds the local govt a ton of money in these areas.  If you removed us investors from there - there would be lot of unemployed people...

In reply to pheller :

Considering the number of people who see homelessness on their horizon and specifically move to the expensive areas because it's better to be homeless in Hawaii or San Diego with perfect weather than in Erie or Boston with garbage weather 6 months a year, I'm going to say you should probably go spend some serious quality time with the people you'd actually be helping with your draconian efficiency ideals, instead of the people you imagine you would be helping. 

Affordable housing almost always turns into the same thing and it's exactly why nobody wants it in their backyards to begin with. Junkies, thieves, deadbeats, career criminals, welfare queens, and other scum that abuse the system and the heartstrings of the people that work in the system so that they don't have to work or pay their share. It's generational in a lot of cases, which should be frightening in and of itself. 

Go take on a job doing cleaning, maintenance, or office work at any affordable housing project, spend some time in the trenches, and see that the system cares more about people who don't want to take care of themselves than it does people trying to better themselves. 

You can try to force things like income windows, job hours worked, or whatever metric you think would benefit the people you want to help, but then you will be tied up and bankrupted in court because it's discriminatory to expect people that have no interest in paying their own way to pay their own way. 

You really want to make a difference for the working poor in expensive popular areas? Get rid of all their jobs. Seriously, all of them. Store stock people, coffee people, restaurant people, any position that doesn't pay enough to cover rent and utilities on a basic apartment or house. Get rid of ALL of those jobs in the area. That will change things really quick because, as it turns out, the working poor are FAR more important to the local economy than anyone wants to admit. So take their jobs away for a month or two, and if the city hasn't crumbled entirely, improvements will be made across the board for wages and working conditions, because no office drone, middle manager, or C suite vajajay is going to have any idea what to do without the people that make their world turn. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Being a hard worker is only one part of the package.

Being a hard to replace worker is how you actually make money.

pheller said:

Larger question then: should homeless people be forcibly shipped to cheaper areas for which to house them?

Yes, resoundingly yes.

First, few homeless people in premium areas could ever have afforded to live their in the first place, they migrated from lower cost areas.

But more importantly, why in the hell would we be forcing, to use your words, tax payers to subsidize accommodations that are in most cases, nicer than what they themselves have???

Most reasonable people want to strike a balance between compassion and having a system that incentivizes people to develop their talents, work hard, take risks, you know, make something of themselves.

So no, in my opinion, people that aren't producing much shouldn't have as nice of stuff as those that are.

It's not in societies best interest to level the standard of living...we'll be completely screwed if people don't wake up each morning with their game face on.

https://www.businessinsider.com/san-francisco-homeless-navy-ship-2016-9

mr2s2000elise said:

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

mr2s2000elise said:

Both of those counties - AirBnB will not be outlawed for sure in the next 10-15 years. 

Are you sure? I'm not even sure that the way things are going now that our current form of Federal Government will be around in 10 to 15 years. That is a long time. I don't really want to get political here, but I have seen things happen in the last 5 years that I never thought I would see happen in this country. Project that madness forward a decade and who knows? The angry people here could burn it all down, or we could be at war with China or Russia. Who knows? A missile strike could take out a lot of real estate. Ask the investors in the Ukraine?

Of course none of us have crystal balls.  

My reasosing, and being part of properties where AirBnB have been outlawed, there were local pressure due to overcrowding.   The two places I am talking about, there are no real local jobs. There isn't over crowding. They are vacation spots, and are decently remote (compared to a LA or NYC).  AirBnB feeds the local govt a ton of money.  If you removed us investors from there - there would be lot of unemployed people...

I don't think the City of Fort Worth misses you home investors at all. Things were going quite well there before you got there and the lack of AirBnB's hasn't really affected the International Truck Factory or the economic activity going on at Fort Worth Alliance Airport. Rents for single family housing might actually go down a bit now.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

 

I don't think the City of Fort Worth misses you home investors at all. Things were going quite well there before you got there and the lack of AirBnB's hasn't really affected the International Truck Factory or the economic activity going on at Fort Worth Alliance Airport. Rents for single family housing might actually go down a bit now.

I have one in Southlake and 2 in Coppell. Not worth it.  However, long term ownership reasoning is different in a no tax state...

We made some decent money in Keller, when we bought, renovated, and sold few there, as the head of the factory (Rolls Royce) is someone very close to me, thus the info and the growth was a very helpful part of the information. 

 The few in RoundRock are gangbusters though. The ROI on those have been as good as the west coast. 

mr2s2000elise said:

https://www.businessinsider.com/san-francisco-homeless-navy-ship-2016-9

I believe we've got plenty of homeless shelter capacity as it is...my understanding is that the beds go vacant night after night because people don't want to accept the house rules (drug use, etc.).  If I'm wrong, somebody please do correct me.

I don't have house rules because I own my house but I own my house because I have a job and my employer has plenty of house rules.

I'm just trying to keep this apples-to-apples...

"How can you sit idle while that poor person is living on the street?"

"Because nothing is being required of them to stay off the street that isn't being required of me to stay off the street"

mr2s2000elise said:

I don't know about the "near homeless" people you guys talking about.

 

However, I know between 2010-2020, in these 10 years, we have had over 30 friends/family move to Texas. They were all middle class, 2 job, 2 car payment, 2 kids type of households in CA. About 5 of them owned a house. Rest all lived in apartments/condos/townhomes.  Some were Toyota engineers, who couldnt afford a house in Irvine, and now doing it big in Plano.

80% moved to Dallas. Keller, Irving, Frisco etc.  All are home owners now. Many are single income now, and their SO can help with kids and give more family time Few of them, now have 2nd, 3rd, and 4th investment properties. 

20% moved to Austin. RoundRock and further north. Some have multiple properties and doing quite well. 

Whenever I see local people here saying they are struggling, can't get ahead, etc, due to foreign money, investors, etc, I always give concrete examples of above, of people I know who are making a better life elsewhere. 

I know years back, I saw lots of people sell their CA houses and go to AZ/NV. 

Last 10 years, I have seen them all go to Idaho, Montana, TX, Atlanta, TN, NC.

 

That would be the people in my old neigborhood in East Dallas. I still own my house there, but right now I'm using it for parking the stuff my HOA doesn't like and as a dog kennel for rescues. I will eventually fix it up to rent. Most of those people don't have college degrees and work whatever jobs they can get. Most of them didn't move to Texas from California like I did. They were born in Dallas. Many of them can't afford to travel and haven't ever been anywhere else. One across the street from me inherited her house from her parents who paid $20,000 for it new. Four years ago she had to sell her house to an investor because she couldn't keep up the property taxes on it. Now it's a rental. About six years ago another 70 year old lady sold her house to the "We Buy Ugly Houses" franchise. You know, the caveman guys. They are a nationwide franchise. They gave her $37,000 for her house. I helped her move out. Now houses in my neigborhood are selling for $350,000.

I read their posts on Nextdoor.com. Some of them beg for a ride to work because they car they are still paying the tote your note lot for broke down again. Some of them talk about their gas getting shut down because thier Oncor bills have tripled. I just bitch and moan and write them a bigger check. These people can't. They don't have it. I read threads about people getting pushed out of their houses because the landlord is selling or he wants to triple the rent. Another lady down the street brings jugs filled with water into her house after the plumbing in her place started leaking so much that the city shut her water off. She can't afford to fix it. Many of them are paying $2,000 a month or more for rent and run out of money before the end of the month.

My house in East Dallas is almost paid for and the payment is still barely above $500 even with the property tax increases. Refinance, refinance and then refinance the refinance. I have enough in my savings account right now to pay the place off in full if I really want to. Then I married a Texas girl who has a much bigger house out in the suburbs that she inherited from her daddy free and clear. That's where I hang my hat now. She has had a great career as a creative director for a major advertising agency in Atlanta and then worked for the Agency here in Dallas that handled Gas Monkey Garage. Those T-shirts you see at hot rod events are her design. She likes to play the stock market. She is a better person than I am. I don't know what she sees in me. Together we own enough crap to fill both houses and they cost us almost nothing.

I feel like I have been lucky. I worked hard, but still. Nobody graduating from college today will get the breaks I got. They paid a lot more for their degrees than I did. Heck. I lived in a cheap mobile home when I was in graduate school. I'm not even sure you could rent something like that near campus today. They will pay a lot more for rent and they might not even be able to afford a house. Some of them are really pissed about it. Ever hear the term, "OK Boomer"? I do.

I feel sorry for all of these people. Maybe I shouldn't. I don't know. I feel sorry for the damned dogs I rescued from the pound too. Maybe I'm just a sucker. Maybe I should be more of a hard ass about life. But I can't be. That's just not me.

Kind of like the dubious "Carvana is totally berking up the used car market" argument, I'm having a hard time believing that AirBnB is really a huge factor in the general housing market.

RevRico said:

You really want to make a difference for the working poor in expensive popular areas? Get rid of all their jobs. Seriously, all of them. Store stock people, coffee people, restaurant people, any position that doesn't pay enough to cover rent and utilities on a basic apartment or house. Get rid of ALL of those jobs in the area. That will change things really quick because, as it turns out, the working poor are FAR more important to the local economy than anyone wants to admit. So take their jobs away for a month or two, and if the city hasn't crumbled entirely, improvements will be made across the board for wages and working conditions, because no office drone, middle manager, or C suite vajajay is going to have any idea what to do without the people that make their world turn. 

To me, raising minimum wages is a realistic version of this. Either they end up taking home more money, or (far less likely) they get laid off and this happens.

This thread was started because of a vacant commercial building. Now we are on to solving the homeless issue

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

First, good on you for rescuing animals...PM me and I'll throw $100+ at whatever charity you recommend.

Reading the examples you provided above hurts...knowing that good people are struggling really hurts; enough said.

We've pinched the middle class to the point where we now have a binary country (haves and have not's)...I feel like I barely made it into the haves group and then zoom, up and up I've gone over time to become a hated "Rich Fat Bastard".

That's not at all what I want...I wish for a big, happy, healthy middle class in our country.

I don't think I'm smart enough to know how to solve our problems but I do think I'm smart enough to recognize that the proposals we keep hearing are complete garbage.

They never do anything to resolve the root causes of our problems, they're just redistribution schemes which will only cause the most productive among us to check out.

Anyway, please PM me so I can help some deserving pooches.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

The topic is right there at the top:  "the ethics of real estate investment, NIMBYism and the Housing Crisis." 

I'm not sure the goalpost has moved...

In reply to pheller :

Oh the goalpost has wandered all over the stadium, parking lot, the mall across the street, through the entire neighborhood, and may possibly be back near one end of the field at the current moment.

But don't for a minute pretend it hasn't moved any time anyone has made a point that you haven't felt like addressing.

In reply to pheller :

I must have missed in the title "stair railings and the wealthy cheat on taxes" because 50 of the pages here are about that  

Its 64 pages of people roundabouts talking about their experiences with housing, wages, etc. 

I'm sorry ya'll can't ignore my thread. 

But there is 256 pages of railroad, hundreds of pages of "Minor Win" and "Minor Rant", as well as hundreds of pages of "Meme" thread. 

In the grand scheme of things, we're at just the tip of the goal post on it's long journey. 

RX Reven' said:

mr2s2000elise said:

https://www.businessinsider.com/san-francisco-homeless-navy-ship-2016-9

I believe we've got plenty of homeless shelter capacity as it is...my understanding is that the beds go vacant night after night because people don't want to accept the house rules (drug use, etc.). 

 

If that is the case, never took a drink or drug in my life. Be happy to move my family there, and rent out my Primary. Want to join? 

GameboyRMH said:

Opti said:

Im sorry if you dont understand the usefulness of theory. 

Id love to hear you try and dispute this simple theory: A certain tax rate, between 0 and 100, exists at which a govt maximizes tax revenue and above and below that tax revenue decreases. 

Or you can show me something that actually disputes that, NOT something that disputes a specific argument in which the laffer curve is used as an argument. You say you disagree with the laffer curve, but it seems like you actually have a disagreement with where people think the tax rate falls.

Also your engine algorithm you talked about is called a virtual dyno, its actually very commonly used by engine builders (good ones). Although its raw outputs numbers arent always great it is useful to see what effects changes will have on output and curve. Very similar to the laffer curve.

I actually don't think that were the peak tax rate falls is material to the hazard posed by potential use of the Laffer curve. It would be very difficult to impossible to disprove the core premise of it, that there is a peak somewhere between 0 and 100. The core of it appears to be true in theory, but any application of it is always wrong in practice. As such, AFAIK there is no valid use for the Laffer curve. It is a theoretical observation that can only function as a wrong answer generator, which is why every argument that uses it turns out to be wrong.

A virtual dyno or engine simulator is vastly more complicated than the Laffer curve, and probably has more complicated math in its Print dialog. There is no comparison between them.

You where the one that initially made the comparison between the laffer curve and a virtual engine dyno.

So it appears your saying you believe the laffer curve is correct, you have a problem with it's application. Your statement stinks of "what your saying is correct, but its not politically correct."

The reason the laffer curve exists is because at a certain point in time, it wasnt understood how you could raise tax rates and revenues didnt go up, or how lower tax rates led to higher revenues. It dates back much farther than Laffer. Its a simple explanation to a very complex system. The fact that a simple statement that there is a tax revenue maximizing rate and its not 100% may seem obvious now, it used to not be. John Quiggin said Laffer was correct, but his argument that the US was on the wrong side of it is incorrect, Id entertain that argument, but not liking a basic theory because its used to argue against you stinks of historically terrible arguments.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

mr2s2000elise said:

I don't know about the "near homeless" people you guys talking about.

 

However, I know between 2010-2020, in these 10 years, we have had over 30 friends/family move to Texas. They were all middle class, 2 job, 2 car payment, 2 kids type of households in CA. About 5 of them owned a house. Rest all lived in apartments/condos/townhomes.  Some were Toyota engineers, who couldnt afford a house in Irvine, and now doing it big in Plano.

80% moved to Dallas. Keller, Irving, Frisco etc.  All are home owners now. Many are single income now, and their SO can help with kids and give more family time Few of them, now have 2nd, 3rd, and 4th investment properties. 

20% moved to Austin. RoundRock and further north. Some have multiple properties and doing quite well. 

Whenever I see local people here saying they are struggling, can't get ahead, etc, due to foreign money, investors, etc, I always give concrete examples of above, of people I know who are making a better life elsewhere. 

I know years back, I saw lots of people sell their CA houses and go to AZ/NV. 

Last 10 years, I have seen them all go to Idaho, Montana, TX, Atlanta, TN, NC.

 

That would be the people in my old neigborhood in East Dallas. I still own my house there, but right now I'm using it for parking the stuff my HOA doesn't like and as a dog kennel for rescues. I will eventually fix it up to rent. Most of those people don't have college degrees and work whatever jobs they can get. Most of them didn't move to Texas from California like I did. They were born in Dallas. Many of them can't afford to travel and haven't ever been anywhere else. One across the street from me inherited her house from her parents who paid $20,000 for it new. Four years ago she had to sell her house to an investor because she couldn't keep up the property taxes on it. Now it's a rental. About six years ago another 70 year old lady sold her house to the "We Buy Ugly Houses" franchise. You know, the caveman guys. They are a nationwide franchise. They gave her $37,000 for her house. I helped her move out. Now houses in my neigborhood are selling for $350,000.

I read their posts on Nextdoor.com. Some of them beg for a ride to work because they car they are still paying the tote your note lot for broke down again. Some of them talk about their gas getting shut down because thier Oncor bills have tripled. I just bitch and moan and write them a bigger check. These people can't. They don't have it. I read threads about people getting pushed out of their houses because the landlord is selling or he wants to triple the rent. Another lady down the street brings jugs filled with water into her house after the plumbing in her place started leaking so much that the city shut her water off. She can't afford to fix it. Many of them are paying $2,000 a month or more for rent and run out of money before the end of the month.

My house in East Dallas is almost paid for and the payment is still barely above $500 even with the property tax increases. Refinance, refinance and then refinance the refinance. I have enough in my savings account right now to pay the place off in full if I really want to. Then I married a Texas girl who has a much bigger house out in the suburbs that she inherited from her daddy free and clear. That's where I hang my hat now. She has had a great career as a creative director for a major advertising agency in Atlanta and then worked for the Agency here in Dallas that handled Gas Monkey Garage. Those T-shirts you see at hot rod events are her design. She likes to play the stock market. She is a better person than I am. I don't know what she sees in me. Together we own enough crap to fill both houses and they cost us almost nothing.

I feel like I have been lucky. I worked hard, but still. Nobody graduating from college today will get the breaks I got. They paid a lot more for their degrees than I did. Heck. I lived in a cheap mobile home when I was in graduate school. I'm not even sure you could rent something like that near campus today. They will pay a lot more for rent and they might not even be able to afford a house. Some of them are really pissed about it. Ever hear the term, "OK Boomer"? I do.

I feel sorry for all of these people. Maybe I shouldn't. I don't know. I feel sorry for the damned dogs I rescued from the pound too. Maybe I'm just a sucker. Maybe I should be more of a hard ass about life. But I can't be. That's just not me.

I want the woman you have! Rich, nice house, plays the stock market. 

You won the lottery!

mr2s2000elise said:

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

mr2s2000elise said:

I don't know about the "near homeless" people you guys talking about.

 

However, I know between 2010-2020, in these 10 years, we have had over 30 friends/family move to Texas. They were all middle class, 2 job, 2 car payment, 2 kids type of households in CA. About 5 of them owned a house. Rest all lived in apartments/condos/townhomes.  Some were Toyota engineers, who couldnt afford a house in Irvine, and now doing it big in Plano.

80% moved to Dallas. Keller, Irving, Frisco etc.  All are home owners now. Many are single income now, and their SO can help with kids and give more family time Few of them, now have 2nd, 3rd, and 4th investment properties. 

20% moved to Austin. RoundRock and further north. Some have multiple properties and doing quite well. 

Whenever I see local people here saying they are struggling, can't get ahead, etc, due to foreign money, investors, etc, I always give concrete examples of above, of people I know who are making a better life elsewhere. 

I know years back, I saw lots of people sell their CA houses and go to AZ/NV. 

Last 10 years, I have seen them all go to Idaho, Montana, TX, Atlanta, TN, NC.

 

That would be the people in my old neigborhood in East Dallas. I still own my house there, but right now I'm using it for parking the stuff my HOA doesn't like and as a dog kennel for rescues. I will eventually fix it up to rent. Most of those people don't have college degrees and work whatever jobs they can get. Most of them didn't move to Texas from California like I did. They were born in Dallas. Many of them can't afford to travel and haven't ever been anywhere else. One across the street from me inherited her house from her parents who paid $20,000 for it new. Four years ago she had to sell her house to an investor because she couldn't keep up the property taxes on it. Now it's a rental. About six years ago another 70 year old lady sold her house to the "We Buy Ugly Houses" franchise. You know, the caveman guys. They are a nationwide franchise. They gave her $37,000 for her house. I helped her move out. Now houses in my neigborhood are selling for $350,000.

I read their posts on Nextdoor.com. Some of them beg for a ride to work because they car they are still paying the tote your note lot for broke down again. Some of them talk about their gas getting shut down because thier Oncor bills have tripled. I just bitch and moan and write them a bigger check. These people can't. They don't have it. I read threads about people getting pushed out of their houses because the landlord is selling or he wants to triple the rent. Another lady down the street brings jugs filled with water into her house after the plumbing in her place started leaking so much that the city shut her water off. She can't afford to fix it. Many of them are paying $2,000 a month or more for rent and run out of money before the end of the month.

My house in East Dallas is almost paid for and the payment is still barely above $500 even with the property tax increases. Refinance, refinance and then refinance the refinance. I have enough in my savings account right now to pay the place off in full if I really want to. Then I married a Texas girl who has a much bigger house out in the suburbs that she inherited from her daddy free and clear. That's where I hang my hat now. She has had a great career as a creative director for a major advertising agency in Atlanta and then worked for the Agency here in Dallas that handled Gas Monkey Garage. Those T-shirts you see at hot rod events are her design. She likes to play the stock market. She is a better person than I am. I don't know what she sees in me. Together we own enough crap to fill both houses and they cost us almost nothing.

I feel like I have been lucky. I worked hard, but still. Nobody graduating from college today will get the breaks I got. They paid a lot more for their degrees than I did. Heck. I lived in a cheap mobile home when I was in graduate school. I'm not even sure you could rent something like that near campus today. They will pay a lot more for rent and they might not even be able to afford a house. Some of them are really pissed about it. Ever hear the term, "OK Boomer"? I do.

I feel sorry for all of these people. Maybe I shouldn't. I don't know. I feel sorry for the damned dogs I rescued from the pound too. Maybe I'm just a sucker. Maybe I should be more of a hard ass about life. But I can't be. That's just not me.

I want the woman you have! Rich, nice house, plays the stock market. 

 

You won the lottery!

I did. She is special. Very creative as well. And supportive. I don't think I would have survived the last 5 years of my life without her.