In reply to GameboyRMH :
People are making family decisions later in life as well. The average age to get married and have kids are also getting older too. You are looking at 4-5 year old data and trying to have a one sided conversation.
If you can't afford to buy where you are at then 1 of 2 things need to change. You either need more income or live in a cheaper market/suburb. It's been this way for a very long time.
I mean I have 3 main sources of income. My primary job, My consulting job, and My rental properties. I've been doing that hustle for almost 25 years. And you know what, It's worked out well but I've worked hard too. I have a very comfortable life and will finally slow down the consulting work.
You have a good skill set and can very easily have a very comfy lifestyle in a lot of towns. Will you live in LA or Vancouver or SF? No. Shoot, I would be struggling to as well even with every thing I'm doing. But can you live in a large swath of North America with ease.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
The graph I posted immediately before it answers that question. The median buyer age is not just increasing due to more older buyers. It's because it's harder for young people to buy:
How did you reach your conclusion? It may be that it's harder it buy. It may be that less young people are buying. But you are again confusing correlation with causation. While I don't disagree that pricing is a factor, it's quite a leap to say it's the cause. You pointed out earlier, our culture has changed from when the baby boomers bought their first homes. People are marrying and having kids later, if at all. They are accruing a lot more debt early- which really wasn't as much of a thing back then. They are staying in school longer and older when they start working. Even if home prices were equivalent, I'll expect people today to buy later than they did previously.
bmw88rider said:
In reply to Steve_Jones :
Agreed Steve. I mean with those skills could easily have an 80-90K salary here in Omaha in a town where 200-300K homes are common. My company can't get enough developers right now.
I mean I have 3 of them here now and it's not like I'm loaded.
Oh wait I'm the boogie man driving up the cost of property because I make income from them.
If he really has the full stack skill experience he says he does, he can easily get a 6 figure remote job.
But, I realize the guy that has worked for the largest cloud computing company in the world for 7 years probably doesn't know what he's talking about.
I agree home prices are high, inflation is high, real wages are down, debt is going up and the economy isn't too great. Now who is willing to discuss why it's that way and figure out how to solve it? It won't get any better until that tough discussion can happen. I swear the past 30 years seems like a continuous choice of A) an E36 M3 sandwich or B) a E36 M3urd burger. I'd love if it everyone could realize we are all in the same boat and start making bologna or better yet club sandwiches again. Until that society exists..... we can all expect more of the same. The odd thing to me is that this could all be fixed in about five years too.
In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
Or as Southpark out it.
A Douche or a Turd Sandwich.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
This link was in my browser history so I've probably posted it before:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/12/millennials-and-gen-zers-want-to-buy-homes-but-they-cant-afford-it.html
That was a really poorly written article. They chopped up the data from their polling to exaggerate their headline. The actual study linked was a little better, but not much. They polled 2600 millennials and Gen Z. It doesn't say what the mix was, but Gen Z really skews the data, as they really aren't of home buying age as a whole. 1300 of the respondents were already homeowners, 1300 were not. They said that 2/3 of the group reported that prices were the top thing keeping them from buying, but only counted the responses from the non homeowners. That 2/3rds becomes 1/3rd when you include the whole group polled. They threw out half of the respondents that had a different answer than they were looking for! Also from the study...
Not that everyone buys into the dream. Among non-homeowners, 12 percent of those surveyed don’t want to ever own a home under any circumstances.
So 6% overall don't want a home.
But most do. And they find it just too tough to afford right now. Specifically, the most-cited hurdles among these aspirations were not enough income (46 percent), home prices that are too high (42 percent) and the inability to afford down payment and closing costs (40 percent).
Again, they threw out all of the home owners. So cut the above percentages in half. I do appreciate that they have both "income not high enough" and "home prices too high," which some mistake to be the same thing.
Other reasons cited include high mortgage rates (29 percent), poor credit (25 percent), just not ready yet (25 percent), too much debt (17 percent) and lack of inventory of homes available for sale (14 percent). (Respondents could select more than one answer.)
This matches what I said, but strangely leaves out marriage and families. Two incomes changes the math greatly when buying a home. But overall, this was just a very poorly constructed and misleading article. The whole methodology of the study is questionable.
SV reX
MegaDork
9/17/23 9:46 a.m.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
Methodology, schmethodology. Who cares when you're trying to prove your point?
SV reX
MegaDork
9/17/23 9:49 a.m.
Gen Z currently ranges from 9 to 24 years old.
Why are they polling 9 year olds about home ownership?
Just counting noses here-does anybody else in this thread (other than Steve) claim there aren't systemic issues with housing in America?
IOW, everything is hunky-dory with housing prices and GameboyRMH just has a personal issue?
In reply to CrustyRedXpress :
I never claimed there was not an issue, but plenty of people have done something other than post graphs and bitch, to help themselves. I asked what he was doing to change his situation, and the answer is nothing.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
The methodology may have been questionable but the results happen to be generally correct. Here are some summaries of other studies that come to the same general conclusion: that most millennials aren't choosing not to buy homes because they don't feel like it, but because they can't afford them:
https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/10/10/17959808/millennial-homeownership-student-loans-rent-burden
https://www.creditkarma.com/home-loans/i/millennial-homebuying
https://financialpost.com/real-estate/canada-millennials-homeownership-relocating
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/investing/personal-finance/article-young-adults-are-giving-up-on-home-ownership-and-a-lot-of-them-are/
As a millennial myself, I feel this is akin to citing evidence to support the idea that most people step on Lego bricks barefoot by accident rather than doing it intentionally as a sport.
Opti
SuperDork
9/17/23 7:51 p.m.
CrustyRedXpress said:
Just counting noses here-does anybody else in this thread (other than Steve) claim there aren't systemic issues with housing in America?
IOW, everything is hunky-dory with housing prices and GameboyRMH just has a personal issue?
I believe the issues are systemic, but not solvable with government involvement because they stem from government involvement. Many of the issues are much larger than just the housing market, like our worthless money.
Opti
SuperDork
9/17/23 8:01 p.m.
GameboyRMH said:
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
The methodology may have been questionable but the results happen to be generally correct. Here are some summaries of other studies that come to the same general conclusion: that most millennials aren't choosing not to buy homes because they don't feel like it, but because they can't afford them:
https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/10/10/17959808/millennial-homeownership-student-loans-rent-burden
https://www.creditkarma.com/home-loans/i/millennial-homebuying
https://financialpost.com/real-estate/canada-millennials-homeownership-relocating
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/investing/personal-finance/article-young-adults-are-giving-up-on-home-ownership-and-a-lot-of-them-are/
As a millennial myself, I feel this is akin to citing evidence to support the idea that most people step on Lego bricks barefoot by accident rather than doing it intentionally as a sport.
I have a little bit of a problem with the self reporting of "I can't afford it." Just because you say you can't afford it doesn't mean you actually can't afford it. It could be just as likely (probably more likely based on my personal experience but thats just anecdotal) that people, like some in this thread, won't get off their ass and do what's required to get one. Instead their idea of " I can't afford it" is actually I refuse to change anything about my life and because of that I can't afford it. I bought a home not that long ago when I was earning well below the median income, and I didn't struggle to pay for it, and in my early 30s I had 3 (2 were income producing) and that's in a in demand area.
What I'm saying is self reported can't afford it is just as likely to be laziness
SV reX
MegaDork
9/17/23 8:39 p.m.
CrustyRedXpress said:
Just counting noses here-does anybody else in this thread (other than Steve) claim there aren't systemic issues with housing in America?
IOW, everything is hunky-dory with housing prices and GameboyRMH just has a personal issue?
That's an oversimplification that I don't buy into.
If the "system" you are referring to is a nationwide single broken American system, then no. I can't buy into that.
If you mean more localized systems with systemic problems, then I agree. There are hundreds and hundreds of broken systems in various different locations for various different reasons that everyone has to learn to contend with. There are hundreds of different solutions for the hundreds of broken problems, and everyone needs to find there path through the local problems.
Everything is not hunky dory, and Gameboy has a personal problem.
There are success stories right now that don't include bitching about it on the internet.
Opti said:
GameboyRMH said:
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
The methodology may have been questionable but the results happen to be generally correct. Here are some summaries of other studies that come to the same general conclusion: that most millennials aren't choosing not to buy homes because they don't feel like it, but because they can't afford them:
https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/10/10/17959808/millennial-homeownership-student-loans-rent-burden
https://www.creditkarma.com/home-loans/i/millennial-homebuying
https://financialpost.com/real-estate/canada-millennials-homeownership-relocating
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/investing/personal-finance/article-young-adults-are-giving-up-on-home-ownership-and-a-lot-of-them-are/
As a millennial myself, I feel this is akin to citing evidence to support the idea that most people step on Lego bricks barefoot by accident rather than doing it intentionally as a sport.
I have a little bit of a problem with the self reporting of "I can't afford it." Just because you say you can't afford it doesn't mean you actually can't afford it. It could be just as likely (probably more likely based on my personal experience but thats just anecdotal) that people, like some in this thread, won't get off their ass and do what's required to get one. Instead their idea of " I can't afford it" is actually I refuse to change anything about my life and because of that I can't afford it. I bought a home not that long ago when I was earning well below the median income, and I didn't struggle to pay for it, and in my early 30s I had 3 (2 were income producing) and that's in a in demand area.
What I'm saying is self reported can't afford it is just as likely to be laziness
Anecdotally as someone who's always made at least median pay for where I worked, the closest I ever got to being able to buy a home was "I could probably afford a really E36 M3ty, tiny house if I owned 1 really cheap vehicle strictly for basic transportation and my only recreation were things I could do on a cobbled-together computer for pocket change."
Actually knew a guy who had that kind of lifestyle, I'd give him a ride home from university sometimes when his one really cheap vehicle was broken down, I wonder what he's up to these days...
If people need to "not be lazy" by making well above median pay to afford a home, our society is berkeleyed. If they need to "not be lazy" by moving far away from where they grew up to leverage the imbalance between their local pay and cheaper property elsewhere, that's...certainly not a good thing for society either. I think anyone who's making median pay and maintaining a reasonable level of financial responsibility is not being lazy, by definition.
Opti
SuperDork
9/17/23 9:43 p.m.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
This all sounds like whining and entitlement. On a macro level do I agree with you, maybe a little, but at the end of the day do something to better your own situation.
Do I wish I could have bought a nice home and not changed my life? Yah, but I looked around and realized if I wanted a home I had to change something so I set a strict budget and saved for 2 years and made sure I had immaculate credit. Then I bought a small home needing a renovation, which I wasn't skilled enough to do. So I went to YouTube and friends that knew how and learned and did it myself. Because of the budget I didn't struggle to pay my bills and I still enjoyed my hobbies, had a modern truck, a race car, and an old Corvette for a fun street car.i had to make some sacrifices but I got what I wanted which is what everyone keeps telling you. DO SOMETHING.
We talk about how much cheaper homes used to be, but I think PART of it was we've become lazy, entitled and used to convenience. My parents owned a home growing up that nowadays it seems comical how cheap it was, but I remember getting yelled at for leaving a light on or turning down the thermostat or using too much water, because my parents did have to worry about things like that to afford a home, but most of the people I know today won't even give up door dash to try and save some money.
You might have to suffer for a little, or learn new skills to achieve your goals (like people through all of human history) but set your own the life towards the goals you want, then we can talk about bigger problems that will take decades to solve.
You mentioned a E36 M3ty tiny house you didn't want, well that's what I bought and within a decade it's worth 4x what I paid and I'm about to cash out
Our first home was 1300 sq ft. Our next home was 3800 sq ft. The next home was 3200 sq ft and the current one is 3000 and 4 people live here. We could probably do 5 okay if needed. Right size is an important thing. I have a philosophy now of buying better things that last longer instead of more or bigger. Bigger just means more heating and cooling and cleaning.
SV reX
MegaDork
9/17/23 10:29 p.m.
What's wrong with a E36 M3ty tiny house? It's a helluva lot better than no house at all.
It's a stepping stone. My first house was not only E36 M3ty, it was in a terrible neighborhood. I had to mow the grass wearing steel soled shoes because I didn't want to step on a hypodermic needle. But it paved the way for the next, and the next.
If you want the prize, you have to start walking on the stepping stones to get there.
GameboyRMH said:
Actually knew a guy who had that kind of lifestyle, I'd give him a ride home from university sometimes when his one really cheap vehicle was broken down, I wonder what he's up to these days...
You say that like he's the idiot, I can guarantee he's not complaining about how "the system" is stacked against him.
Just like others, my first house was a small house in a E36 M3 area. That's what it took. My current house, let's just say, is not.
Steve_Jones said:
GameboyRMH said:
Actually knew a guy who had that kind of lifestyle, I'd give him a ride home from university sometimes when his one really cheap vehicle was broken down, I wonder what he's up to these days...
You say that like he's the idiot, I can guarantee he's not complaining about how "the system" is stacked against him.
Eh, I'm sure there is nuance to the situation, but I would argue that buying a home you can just barely afford, i.e. hinges on you making major sacrifices everywhere else is a terrible idea. That sounds like a situation where he could be one step away from it all crashing down.
That said, I do agree with the general consensus here.
The #1 factor is still location. Eventually we will reach a threshold where workers will not want to/be able to live near employers at whatever salary they are offering. I thought that would've happened a long time ago (it happened to me over a decade ago), but *shrug* here we are. I'm really not sure what its going to take to convince people to just move. Capitalism is trying to self correct but irrational employees are messing up the algorithm. (I do recognize this is easier said than done for those in very low income jobs)
Opti
SuperDork
9/18/23 8:47 a.m.
ProDarwin said:
Steve_Jones said:
GameboyRMH said:
Actually knew a guy who had that kind of lifestyle, I'd give him a ride home from university sometimes when his one really cheap vehicle was broken down, I wonder what he's up to these days...
You say that like he's the idiot, I can guarantee he's not complaining about how "the system" is stacked against him.
Eh, I'm sure there is nuance to the situation, but I would argue that buying a home you can just barely afford, i.e. hinges on you making major sacrifices everywhere else is a terrible idea. That sounds like a situation where he could be one step away from it all crashing down.
I read an article a while back talking about just this. The conclusion was since most Americans are so bad about saving for the future and investing, and home ownership is the largest indicator of wealth in the US, buying the absolute most house you can "afford" even if youre barely squeaking buy ends up being many Americans only path to decent wealth.
Im still firmly in the camp its a terrible idea, because of the whole crashing down part, but its funny how it elevates so many people.
Opti said:
I read an article a while back talking about just this. The conclusion was since most Americans are so bad about saving for the future and investing, and home ownership is the largest indicator of wealth in the US, buying the absolute most house you can "afford" even if youre barely squeaking buy ends up being many Americans only path to decent wealth.
Im still firmly in the camp its a terrible idea, because of the whole crashing down part, but its funny how it elevates so many people.
Yeah I have come across quite a few who have fumbled their way to wealth through too much home while completely neglecting the more logical savings vessels.
I still don't understand the "I should be able to have a McMansion regardless of my actual pay" mindset.
Hell when I got divorced in 2015, at the beginning, I moved into a super swanky downtown apartment in Tulsa. Then I realized it was stupid to be paying $1100/month (2015 dollars) for an 800sq ft 1 bed loft.......regardless of how cool the 12' ceilings and fancy appliances were in the renovated building from the 20s. So I moved in with a buddy of mine who had been divorced the year before.
We could both easily afford to live by ourselves both making $55-60k/yr each back then, but decided to live together to save money and pay off bills from our respective divorces more quickly. At one point, we lived in my dad's crummy old house to save even more money.
I think part of this weird "I should have a big, nice new home right after graduating college" mindset is coming from housing for college students now. From the past few years of being season ticket holders for OSU football games, on-campus housing is a nicer than what a lot of people who have graduated and have full-time jobs live in normally.
It's just a completely different world today. It will never be 1960 again. That was 60 years ago. Think about how different the world was in the previous 60 year span from 1900 to 1960. You could argue forever which trends are inherently good or bad. As a millennial, my home-buying power sure feels bad compared to my parents' generation. But also my quality of life in 2023 compared to the 1960s, 70s, or even the 90s is pretty damn sweet. I have air-conditioning everywhere I go, I have the internet in my pocket, my "slow" Miata is faster than just about everything built back then. It's just not the same world anymore.
