European Employers vs US Employers

alfadriver said:

rob_lewis said:

And, I think that's what drives the entire US business.  Work harder, longer, faster, to become the best. 

-Rob

But here's the question- to what end?  What does that actually gain you?  You may get more money- sure.  But is that the only goal?

edit- and if you are working for someone else- is that harder, longer, faster, to be the best benefiting you or your owners more?

I'm not saying that one should not try to be the best- I'm more asking about what are you going to be when you are the best.

Alfa is asking THE question. It's the question that the younger people are asking and that the companies cannot answer. 

Most of the younger generations have seen their parents work long hours, being stressed out and hating their life. And for what? To be denied a pay raise because the economy is bad. Or to be the first one sacked because the new guy can do 80% of your job for 60% of your pay. Why would you want to get in that system?

The younger generation prefers to reduce their living expenses to have more time and flexibility. And this is not a problem that can be fixed by the usual business practice of "throwing money at the problem". 

fanfoy said:

The younger generation prefers to reduce their living expenses to have more time and flexibility. And this is not a problem that can be fixed by the usual business practice of "throwing money at the problem". 

We were actually just chatting about this yesterday here in the office after I had a recruiter call me and ask me to apply for a management position in San Antonio.

Would have been at least a $15k/year raise or more + relocation benefits. But I thought to myself: 

"Is $1k per month enough to make me give up working from home two days per week? The ability to change those on the fly when needed? Flexibility during the day to go to appointments without needing to take time off? Wearing shorts and metal T-Shirts when I go in and not slacks and a tie? A relaxed boss and environment?" etc etc etc

The answer was no, it's not. At least not for me.

pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

I firmly believe that people that want things to stay bad should do us a favor and get out of the way.

You certainly have my sympathy if you personally are having a rough go of it, but where may I ask is it "bad?"  The news is abuzz with reports of economic prosperity in this country, with low (and trending lower) unemployment and rising wage growth.  Mortgage rates are near historical lows and the housing market is reasonably stable.  Honestly seems like a great time for a motivated individual to prosper.

https://ig.ft.com/sites/numbers/economies/us/#jobs

z31maniac said:

fanfoy said:

The younger generation prefers to reduce their living expenses to have more time and flexibility. And this is not a problem that can be fixed by the usual business practice of "throwing money at the problem". 

We were actually just chatting about this yesterday here in the office after I had a recruiter call me and ask me to apply for a management position in San Antonio.

Would have been at least a $15k/year raise or more + relocation benefits. But I thought to myself: 

"Is $1k per month enough to make me give up working from home two days per week? The ability to change those on the fly when needed? Flexibility during the day to go to appointments without needing to take time off? Wearing shorts and metal T-Shirts when I go in and not slacks and a tie? A relaxed boss and environment?" etc etc etc

The answer was no, it's not. At least not for me.

Funny, I think that the dress code is the least impressive perk that there is. I don't care if you have me dress in suit and tie or jeans or shorts, that is the perk I care about the absolute least. Flexibility though, WFH, those are huge. 

1988RedT2 said:

pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

I firmly believe that people that want things to stay bad should do us a favor and get out of the way.

You certainly have my sympathy if you personally are having a rough go of it, but where may I ask is it "bad?"  The news is abuzz with reports of economic prosperity in this country, with low (and trending lower) unemployment and rising wage growth.  Mortgage rates are near historical lows and the housing market is reasonably stable.  Honestly seems like a great time for a motivated individual to prosper.

https://ig.ft.com/sites/numbers/economies/us/#jobs

Yep. Things are good, nay, great right now. Of course, you have to ignore the media to see it. 

mtn said:

z31maniac said:

fanfoy said:

The younger generation prefers to reduce their living expenses to have more time and flexibility. And this is not a problem that can be fixed by the usual business practice of "throwing money at the problem". 

We were actually just chatting about this yesterday here in the office after I had a recruiter call me and ask me to apply for a management position in San Antonio.

Would have been at least a $15k/year raise or more + relocation benefits. But I thought to myself: 

"Is $1k per month enough to make me give up working from home two days per week? The ability to change those on the fly when needed? Flexibility during the day to go to appointments without needing to take time off? Wearing shorts and metal T-Shirts when I go in and not slacks and a tie? A relaxed boss and environment?" etc etc etc

The answer was no, it's not. At least not for me.

Funny, I think that the dress code is the least impressive perk that there is. I don't care if you have me dress in suit and tie or jeans or shorts, that is the perk I care about the absolute least. Flexibility though, WFH, those are huge. 

Felxibility is great, my new job has that going for it along with the new thing of paying 100% of employee health insurance. The 401k matching isn't great. Overall, not bad. Dress code, though, matters to me more than it does for you simply because of the cost and maintenance of a more "bussiness-y" dress code. 

I like what fanfoy said, among others, about the younger generation questioning what we get out of working so hard for the good of the company and if it's worth it.

In reply to fanfoy :

It's a pretty damn good question.

Do I put in 50+ hours a week for possibly a 1-3% raise if I'm lucky while everyone higher gets bonuses that rival my salary ooorrrr do I do my 40 while looking for something better? Or do I start my own business and hope for the best?

In reply to FuzzWuzzy :

Get into commissions sales.  It's like owning my own business without all the headaches of owning my own business.  
 

I make good money but not owning my own company money.  

mtn said:

z31maniac said:

fanfoy said:

The younger generation prefers to reduce their living expenses to have more time and flexibility. And this is not a problem that can be fixed by the usual business practice of "throwing money at the problem". 

We were actually just chatting about this yesterday here in the office after I had a recruiter call me and ask me to apply for a management position in San Antonio.

Would have been at least a $15k/year raise or more + relocation benefits. But I thought to myself: 

"Is $1k per month enough to make me give up working from home two days per week? The ability to change those on the fly when needed? Flexibility during the day to go to appointments without needing to take time off? Wearing shorts and metal T-Shirts when I go in and not slacks and a tie? A relaxed boss and environment?" etc etc etc

The answer was no, it's not. At least not for me.

Funny, I think that the dress code is the least impressive perk that there is. I don't care if you have me dress in suit and tie or jeans or shorts, that is the perk I care about the absolute least. Flexibility though, WFH, those are huge. 

Wearing slacks and button-up shirts everyday gets fairly expensive with dry cleaning. I think at my last job where I had to do that I spent $75-80 per month on dry cleaning.

Ian F said:

In reply to 02Pilot :

It would be nice if some middle ground could be found.

I've heard asians that have come here to work that think we are spoiled because we get two days off a week. Maybe we are the middle ground.

z31maniac said:

Wearing slacks and button-up shirts everyday gets fairly expensive with dry cleaning. I think at my last job where I had to do that I spent $75-80 per month on dry cleaning.

But if you find machine washable and no iron shirts + some slacks, it's really cheap.  I've been wearing button up shirts + slacks for my entire career, and never dry cleaned them.  To me, they fit better than jeans, anyway.

My shirts and pants last for years without replacement.

I dunno, I feel like we as Americans should aspire to be more than just an incremental improvement over a quasi-communist nation or others that still employ child and slave labor. We should produce the most, have the best wages, and also have the best work/life balance of industrialized nation. 

By denying ourselves vacation, a 35hr work week, good wages, good health benefits, we're not doing ourselves any favors. 

fanfoy said:

alfadriver said:

rob_lewis said:

And, I think that's what drives the entire US business.  Work harder, longer, faster, to become the best. 

-Rob

But here's the question- to what end?  What does that actually gain you?  You may get more money- sure.  But is that the only goal?

edit- and if you are working for someone else- is that harder, longer, faster, to be the best benefiting you or your owners more?

I'm not saying that one should not try to be the best- I'm more asking about what are you going to be when you are the best.

Alfa is asking THE question. It's the question that the younger people are asking and that the companies cannot answer. 

Most of the younger generations have seen their parents work long hours, being stressed out and hating their life. And for what? To be denied a pay raise because the economy is bad. Or to be the first one sacked because the new guy can do 80% of your job for 60% of your pay. Why would you want to get in that system?

The younger generation prefers to reduce their living expenses to have more time and flexibility. And this is not a problem that can be fixed by the usual business practice of "throwing money at the problem". 

At 31 I think I can say I am part of the younger generation you speak of, and I agree. While there is ample opportunity for those driven folks who want to chase it, I don't fit in that category. I am not lazy or afraid of hard work either. My grandfather was/is a quite successful business man and I respect him greatly but when he asked why I didn't "work with computers" because that is where all the big money is, we had this exact conversation. I told him that as long as I could support and provide a reasonable level of comfort for my family that was enough for me but I would rather make just enough doing something of value* than make more than enough grinding away at a meaningless desk for a faceless entity. I know what enough is for me and it truly is enough. I have zero desire for fame/fortune/biggernewerbetter, or the latest iphone.

*difined differently by different folks, obviously, but I would say "productive, skilled labor/manufacturing, or needed service (medical/vocational/whatever)"

In reply to z31maniac :

Dry cleaning?  What's that?

I wear 100% cotton dress pants or khakis and a 100% cotton buttondown every day, and dump the lot in the washing machine every weekend. I get a year or more out of each piece. I won't pay more that $30 for an article of clothing (except shoes).
 

Frankly my bosses wouldn't care if I wore jeans (except to client meetings) but standard non-suit business wear is perfectly fine for me. 

barefootskater said:

At 31 I think I can say I am part of the younger generation you speak of, and I agree. While there is ample opportunity for those driven folks who want to chase it, I don't fit in that category. I am not lazy or afraid of hard work either. My grandfather was/is a quite successful business man and I respect him greatly but when he asked why I didn't "work with computers" because that is where all the big money is, we had this exact conversation. I told him that as long as I could support and provide a reasonable level of comfort for my family that was enough for me but I would rather make just enough doing something of value* than make more than enough grinding away at a meaningless desk for a faceless entity. I know what enough is for me and it truly is enough. I have zero desire for fame/fortune/biggernewerbetter, or the latest iphone.

*difined differently by different folks, obviously, but I would say "productive, skilled labor/manufacturing, or needed service (medical/vocational/whatever)"

I will never say the current generation coming into the workforce is lazy and afraid of hard work.  And I'm sorry if I implied that.  I was afraid my earlier post wouldn't come across right.  What I was trying to convey is that drive to work harder than the next (worker, company, country) has been a part of the fabric of the US for a long time.

However, the current generation of workforce (IMO) does have a different problem with life/work boundaries.  I've noticed the younger generation is more likely to be working at night and on the weekends than the older generation will be.  I think a large part of that is due to the increased use of laptops and smart phones where we have both personal and work on them and are never really disconnected from the office.  I know I tell everyone when I cut out early or when I'm on vacation that I'll at least have my phone with me and keeping up with emails/chats.  That's not me wanting to "work harder" as much as it's just SOP these days.  Then again, I'm in the office reading this board and posting, so it's a little give and take.

Each generation changes the tide in some way.  I'd love for the younger generation to question the work/life/comp balance and get some things changed.  I just feel there is a deep history in the US that it will take a while.

-Rob

In reply to barefootskater :

I think a lot of it is confirmation bias.   I could note some incredibly lazy youfs but you'll have that with any age group because people is people.  I could also note just as many incredibly energetic youfs who are also well motivated and well directioned.  They don't fit the narrative so they get ignored.

How old were the people who were contracted to build the cabin from hell? 

I will say this much - I haven't met a professional under 30 years old who didn't want, or wouldn't use more vacation time. I've even talked with people who are barely scraping by who said they would take a pay cut for more vacation time. 

rob_lewis said:

when I'm on vacation that I'll at least have my phone with me and keeping up with emails/chats.  That's not me wanting to "work harder" as much as it's just SOP these days. 

It's only SOP if you let it be SOP. If I'm on vacation, the goal is to not be working. Many times, I'm somewhere that doesn't even HAVE a cell signal. I'm one of those "work to live" people, though. I have no aspirations beyond what I'm doing now, either- I'll stay current on the technology and do my absolute best every day at work, but my performance plan is "do the same thing I'm doing now."

 

alfadriver said:

rob_lewis said:

And, I think that's what drives the entire US business.  Work harder, longer, faster, to become the best. 

-Rob

But here's the question- to what end?  What does that actually gain you?  You may get more money- sure.  But is that the only goal?

 

I recently came to this conclusion thinking about a different but related issue... The US system seems to be "get as much money as you can, as fast as you can".  We are all in a race to retirement.  You need to accumulate a sizable pile of wealth before it's too late so you can finally live the life you always wanted while also providing yourself with food, shelter and healthcare.  So maybe it isn't "the end" but the means is definitely "make more money" because we need all we can get.  Most of us will simply die, having never lived.  Maybe that is just the human condition.

Duke said:

In reply to z31maniac :

Dry cleaning?  What's that?

I wear 100% cotton dress pants or khakis and a 100% cotton buttondown every day, and dump the lot in the washing machine every weekend. I get a year or more out of each piece. I won't pay more that $30 for an article of clothing (except shoes).

Hey if you guys want to look like shlubs, be my guest.  <- I hope this reinforces I'm just messing around.

But seriously, I wasn't going to replace my "business clothes." My last job I was still wearing the "business clothes" I bought to interview for my first jobs out of college and wore at my first job back in 2006-2007. I had jobs in between where I wore jeans everyday as well. So the clothes only have a few years worth of wear and since I bought nice clothes to begin, once I eliminate this extra I've put around the midsection, they will easily last for years to come.

pheller said:

I dunno, I feel like we as Americans should aspire to be more than just an incremental improvement over a quasi-communist nation or others that still employ child and slave labor. We should produce the most, have the best wages, and also have the best work/life balance of industrialized nation. 

By denying ourselves vacation, a 35hr work week, good wages, good health benefits, we're not doing ourselves any favors. 

 

I'm American and I don't feel that I'm denying myself any of those things. SOME people would say I am because my wages and benefits don't meet their expectation of "good" but I'm healthy and comfortable and I have a LOT of room to earn more as I learn to be more productive with my time.

As a (early born 83) melinnial in a Manager role I know I would trade my 60+ hour weeks and 24/7 on call for 60% hours and 60% pay.   Ive missed way to many Kids events, Car events, and family vacations due to work and am very frustrated by the culture we have where I am "letting work down" whenever I have a life that gets in the way.  There are people at my job who have done what I am being asked to do for 35+ year careers and I think to myself how sad it is that they have sold their life to work (and how sad it is that I am doing the same).  I mean sure we take $$$ vacations every few years but 2 weeks a year does not a life make.  For the past 2 years I've given up on substantial goals I've had personally because work just got in the way.  

I applaud those of you who have chosen to stop at "enough" and set limits and boundaries on your time such that you can achieve work life balance.  I am hopeful someday I will achieve it.  

Did you sell Canoes there?

- ANOTHER ZOMBIE THREAD REVIVAL -

All I have to add is that I have a European boss and he encourages us to take our vacation time and enjoy life.  I love my job and I'm always trying to learn more so I tend to work 45-50 hour weeks and he tells me "Work to live, don't live to work." 

infinitenexus said:

All I have to add is that I have a European boss and he encourages us to take our vacation time and enjoy life.  I love my job and I'm always trying to learn more so I tend to work 45-50 hour weeks and he tells me "Work to live, don't live to work." 

Second this. My wife's European boss tells her during quarterly reviews that her approach to work is "too American" and that she is lagging behind the rest of the company in taking vacation.