I have been reading this with interest. I would love to live overseas (probably the UK for a bit) but I am not sure 1. how we would afford (particularly housing since it seems like engineers don't get paid much different over there) and 2. what my wife would do? I am not sure how a teaching degree from the US would transfer over there. I have a British birth certificate so I should be able to get a British passport without a problem if I understand correctly.
Great thread guys. I've always thought about living elsewhere, this is enlightening. And kudos to discussing personal experiences without turning it into a politics flounder.
Ovid_and_Flem said:Non political question....what rest of world visitors/residents view of violence/gun aspect of american culture? Militarization of domestIC LEO's? Feel safe here?
Please...can we stay away from gun control discussion?
Again, very relevant Q to my situation. Without going all political, I'm pretty open here about being (at least in US terms) way far left, yet unusual for someone as far left as I am in that I am not anti gun. To me I think Utopia is some sort of mythical island half way between the US and the UK. The UK and much of Europe has gone way too far. In the UK people can and have been incarcerated for defending themselves from home invasion with firearms. That's stupid. On the other hand, the complete and total lack of checks and balances here appalls me just as much. I'm all for guns and gun ownership, but every single gun should be registered and kept locked up. No ifs ands or butts. Training and a license should be mandatory for any firearm ownership, including you great grandads union musket from last century, even if no one has fired in over a century. Every single sale should be logged and recorded. Own a weapon that isn't registered or you buy illegally, that's it, done for life you loose your right to ownership. Anyone who commits a crime, felony or act of violence or aggression instantly and permanently looses the right to own a firearm. Any crime committed while in possession of a gun (even if it's in a getaway vehicle and not on them during the actual act) should be prosecuted as if they'd used the firearm in the crime. I also think that some of the weapons simply shouldn't be legally sold, but I don't know how you'd ever roll that one back so I just don't go there. If you own a gun, even legally, and a minor, yours or someone else's gets hold of it becasue it wasn't locked correctly and someone gets hurt, injured or killed, even if unintentionally then you, the registered owner are automatically convicted of at least manslaughter. There is no repreve here. This isn't a trial, this is an automatic sentance. This doesn't not apply if someone breaks in and steals it, or the lock is cut off your gun safe by your kids or something. But people who leave guns lying around (I know people who have gun racks right inside their front doors, not even a glass door infront of them, just 6-10 rifles and shotguns sitting in a rack). I could go on. I realize these views aren't popular with many. Most pro gun people think I'm crazy for wanting to step on their rights, most anti gun people think I'm some kind of pro gun wack job.
As far as safety. I think the people way way over react and use the potential (but miniscule) threat of violence as an excuse to carry a gun. But as I've said many times, I feel totally comfortable walking with my family around Detroit at night. I've said it here many times, if I ever felt the need for a gun for personal or family safety then it's time to move house, city, county, state or country. People don't like hearing it, but statistically owning a gun increases your chances of dying from gun violence.
The militarization of the Police force is something that does greatly concern me. The Police and Sheriffs are a civil force, not a military one and they should not under any circumstnaces become military light. If a Metropolitan area feels the need for a totally separate SWAT team fine. Beyond that call in the National Guard. It really scares me when you see even small local municipalities or Sheriffs departments rolling around in armored cars and full riot gear. That stuff should be totally separate from the Police force.
I know that many here will disagree with what I've stated, but please, I was answering a direct question not trying to start an argument. The question was specifically aimed at those of us from overseas who visit or live here.
LEt me add a counter point to support gun rights. Pistols and hand guns while not absolutely illegal in the UK are so difficult to own they are effectively illegal. The upshot is that there is virtually no gun violence. The US has about 4.62 gun homicides per 100K people while the UK has only 0.06 gun homicides per 100K people. Simple you say, ban guns. Not so fast. While gun homicide is extremely rare over there, other forms of violent crime are more common such as stabbing and serious beatings. While I hope never to experience personal violence or death, if you told me 'We're going to kill you, take your pick, a gun shot, multiple stabbings or being pushed to the ground and kicked by 2-3-4-5 or more assailants, then I'll take the single gun shot every time. That's the hidden truth of homicide. IT's so crazy that friends and family in the UK are disturbed that I carry a pocket knife, it's a small 3" blade which is the legal maximum over there. I even checked the UK State department before my last trip over there and it's totally legal, but friends and family were seriously disturbed by me carrying it and kept telling me I"d get in trouble. I'd love to hear some of the other people here from Germany, Scandinavia, Australia etc. for their take on gun vs knife or beating violence and guns in general. You should see the look on UK friends and families face if they come camping with us and I pull out my 18" machete, they about have an aneurysm. You'd be arrested for that instantly over there.
93EXCivic said:I have been reading this with interest. I would love to live overseas (probably the UK for a bit) but I am not sure 1. how we would afford (particularly housing since it seems like engineers don't get paid much different over there) and 2. what my wife would do? I am not sure how a teaching degree from the US would transfer over there. I have a British birth certificate so I should be able to get a British passport without a problem if I understand correctly.
If you were born in Britain, which I assume you were as you have a British Birth certificate, then you are official British, no ifs ands or butts. If your mother was British or your father was British and married to your mother, you are officially 'British by decent' That's the case for my daughter. In that case you can apply for a British passport and will need original copies of your and your (British) parents birth certificate, plus copies of any and all marriage, divorce and death certificates etc. You can then easily get a British passport which proves you are a British citizen. The funny thing is it's easier for a person who is 'British by decent' to get a British Passport, which proves they are British and allows travel, than it is to get a stand alone document of British citizenship. The only reason I know this is I went through this a couple of years ago for my youngest.
Extra side note. Both the UK and the US allow Citizenship to pass down one generation for those born out of the country. So right now my US born daughter is eligible for and has a UK passport in addition to her American one. But if she has a child here in the US, they will only be eligible for US Citizenship. Now, if she hops on a plane and flys to the UK to drop this theoretical sprog, then that child will again be eligible for both UK and US citizenship. Something to consider that I have told her, but at 17 she's 100% in the 'I'm never having kids' camp so it's probably immaterial.
Ovid_and_Flem said:Non political question....what rest of world visitors/residents view of violence/gun aspect of american culture? Militarization of domestIC LEO's? Feel safe here?
Please...can we stay away from gun control discussion?
I've been trying real hard to write a detailed view on gun violence without getting floundery, and I can't, so I'll just say that the gun violence situation looks cartoonishly silly to me. But like a cartoon for adults with dark humor.
Violence in general, I don't think much of it, the US has more and less dangerous places like anywhere else and the really dangerous places are easily avoided. I don't think of the US as being generally dangerous.
Militarization of LEOs? Weird and not good now that you mention it, but not something that you see often so I don't think of it much. Personally I've never seen cops in the US IRL in military vehicles and only saw them once with unusual weapons (that was in the early 2000s, cops with AR15s in Miami airport). I can tell you that stuff unsettles most non-Americans when they see it though (Jamaicans, Colombians and Mexicans are used to it I'm sure). For reference, by me the cops have no military vehicles, some are unarmed and some carry handguns, they have some bolt-action rifles that seem to be just for parades. If the police aren't well-armed enough for some situation the BDF (similar role to US National Guard) gets called in, of course this is very rare.
Feel safe? Generally yes, the thought of random gun violence may occasionally cross my mind but then I reassure myself with statistics. Then I remember that my mom avoided last year's Ft. Lauderdale airport shooting by less than 24hrs, then I reassure myself with statistics again...
Adrian_Thompson said:93EXCivic said:I have been reading this with interest. I would love to live overseas (probably the UK for a bit) but I am not sure 1. how we would afford (particularly housing since it seems like engineers don't get paid much different over there) and 2. what my wife would do? I am not sure how a teaching degree from the US would transfer over there. I have a British birth certificate so I should be able to get a British passport without a problem if I understand correctly.
If you were born in Britain, which I assume you were as you have a British Birth certificate, then you are official British, no ifs ands or butts. If your mother was British or your father was British and married to your mother, you are officially 'British by decent' That's the case for my daughter. In that case you can apply for a British passport and will need original copies of your and your (British) parents birth certificate, plus copies of any and all marriage, divorce and death certificates etc. You can then easily get a British passport which proves you are a British citizen. The funny thing is it's easier for a person who is 'British by decent' to get a British Passport, which proves they are British and allows travel, than it is to get a stand alone document of British citizenship. The only reason I know this is I went through this a couple of years ago for my youngest.
British by decent in my case.
Ovid_and_Flem said:Non political question....what rest of world visitors/residents view of violence/gun aspect of american culture? Militarization of domestIC LEO's? Feel safe here?
Please...can we stay away from gun control discussion?
So this is my Tesco story, and it relates to violent crime in the US:
I was born and raised in Washington state and then moved to Texas before returning to WA. I was very "well, yeah we have violent crime but it's all in certain areas" and very "pro gun". I moved to Hungary and remember saying something to the effect of "Well, sure. But aren't there areas of Budapest you don't go around?" to my Hungarian teacher. She laughed (a lot)
So there we were. My wife and I were walking to the local grocery store after dark. The very last part of this walk involved about a 300 yard trail across a farmers field. At the far end were some bushes, and behind those bushes were some local ruffians drinking beer and having a good time (wrestling, showing off for the one girl that was there, etc). We made it 3/4ths the way across the field before I saw the group and things were looking very much in the "ah crap, here we go" category.
They saw us coming and stopped what they were doing. Then they moved to the side of the path, said "good evening, and excuse us" to which we replied the best we could in Hungarian and that was it. They were just some kids who were sneaking beers when the weren't supposed to (to young, living with parents who dont allow it...). Nothing malicious about it.
The same couldnt be said about our visit to the tacoma library 4-years later. A few guys, roughly our age, drinking beers across the street from the library who had to go OUT of their way to walk in our direction and then follow us to the entrance of the library. When we got out, they were across the street again. Made me nervous as hell.
also for the "police speeding story"
So this pertains to the differences in police behavior: the police in Hungary are Police (in Kuwait too). They dont have guns, etc. My wife was having complications with her first pregnancy and had to stay at a hospital an hour and a half away. I was driving back to our house because we had animals that needed taking care of.
The speed limit on the highways (m-1) was 130kph (about 75mph) but the traffic cameras are set to go off at 155kph (about 93mph), I had the cruise control set at 150kph (just under 90mph). Somehow or another I ended up about 200 yards behind a police vehicle on an otherwise empty M-way. From behind me I could see a porsche that was closing distance FAST. The police officer saw him too because when the porsche passed me in the left lane, the police officer pulled his car into the left lane and then used his brakes to slow him down to about 130 (I know this because i slowed down too). At 130, the officer pulled back into the right lane and the porsche layed into the skinny pedal again and was winding up to speed. The officer (now on his way back up to 150) pulled back into the left lane and slowed both of them down to 130. The porsche guy got the point and joined our caravan at 150kph down the highway.
So here's me after 4 years of this sort of stuff (I have more stories, like the time I discovered "palinka" and passed out at a police checkpoint while Mrs. Hungary drove us home. oops) and we move back to the states and holy smokes! It's like I completely lost my tolerance for violent crime and how our law enforcement operates (I have stories about both. Denny's where my wife got screamed at "what the F are you looking at you stupid B" by a full grown man on a Saturday morning when she was going to change my son's diaper, my truck getting stolen by meth heads on the day I took the battery and alternator out to have tested because it wouldn't start, the bread truck some druggie parked in my driveway because he thought he could sleep there for the night, that tacoma library story, and so on). Eventually we had enough and punched out to any other country that was hiring and it was like this HUGE weight was lifted from our chests. We just didnt have the stomach for violence anymore, even if it was "somewhere else" it always felt too close to home, and I dont see it anywhere else the way I see it in the states. (of course it doesnt help when I return to Everett for company training and Mariner high school had a shooting at a sports event that same night)
So yeah. that's my stories.
In reply to 93EXCivic :
As opposed to "jus soli."...of the soil. Birthright of being born here.
There is a lot that appeals to me about living in England. For all the fun that is made of English food, it is a lot easier to eat healthy there. Also the weather. I mean it rains a lot but rarely pours and the weather is more consistent then here in Alabama (not super cold or super hot). Good mass transit. Easier to do bike commuting and access to bike parks. Access to race tracks. Caterham 7s. Health care.
The things that really hold me back are having really good friends here, not knowing what my wife would do, cost of living and the fact it is an island (not to get political but worried about the effects of sea level rising).
Adrian_Thompson said:Not wanting to make assumptions for BoxHeadTim, but one comment to add on the 'not feeling at home in where he grew up in Germany' comment. Something I think that most people over here forget is how young a country Germany is. It's only about 150 years old, even younger than the USA. While the constituent states are very very old, what people think of as Germany is really made up of the many smaller independent Germanic states with the exception of Austria and Switzerland. Due to that relatively recent incorporation (and let's not even get started on the re-unification of East and West) I think there are more and more ingrained differences than most other countries, with the possible exception of this one. The big difference is that the wide diversity within the US is spread out across this massive country, that similar level of diversity is contained in an area about the size of Montana.
BHT, thoughts? Am I way off base here?
i think there is at something to that thought. One thing that shouldn't be forgotten is that during those 150 years, the country has gone through a set of rather traumatic events as well - and yes, a lot of them were self inflicted. The latest incarnation since 1949 has been modeled after the federal model of the US, so the states (Bundeslander) have a fair amount of say in the overall government. But even with that, there is a lot local tribalism and an actively encouraged old boys network in both politics and business. It also used to be a pretty uniform country compared to, say, France. Yes, we had some Turkish and Italian guest workers (with no path to citizenship, at least back then - I went to school with a few Turkish kids who were born in Germany but basically at that time had zero chance of ever becoming citizens) but if you compared that with the mix of people you got in France and the UK (obviously both colonial powers), Germany is a very white, born here and may move one town over and die there after I built a house type country,
Case in point, I just went to my highschool reunion. I'm the one person living furthest away, there are a couple of fellow weirdos who live in France and Austria, but the majority still lives within a 100 mile radius from where we went to school.
I think another part that always rubbed me the wrong way is that Germany is a very consensus based, hierarchical society. Not as hierarchical as, say, Austria, but decisions are made the proper way and handed down the ladder. And yes, there are people that reject this to a certain extent and live their own life. You know, the country that produced music like Rammstein, but also Modern Talking. or think of David Bowie, who went to Berlin in the 70s. But that was Berlin, which back then was a place that weird people congregated.
OTOH there are parts of society there that are very liberal and some enlightened policies are coming from there that aren't found in a lot of other places in Europe. But those didn't come from the places I lived in, but the places I maybe should've lived in but never did.
In reply to 93EXCivic :
One thing that is a shock to a lot of people moving, or even visiting the UK or mainland Europe is the sticker shock. Life is way more expensive there. Take a vacation there before committing and see how you fare with prices.
Wow, just rememberd another big shock for people moving here. Every where else sales tax, VAT, whatever it's called where you are is already factored in to the price displayed on products, up to and including cars etc. So if you see something that says it's £1.50, when you get to the checkout they charge you £1.50. When you move here and something is priced $1.50, you get to teh check out and (in the case of Michigan) they charge you $1.59. That's was a hard one to get used too, but everything is so cheap over here it was more amusing than a real issue. Note. When comparing car prices with Europe, remember they have tax built in so while yes they are more expensive over there, it's not as much as a simple currency conversion would lead you to believe. Also, no double dipping on cars, VAT is only charged on new cars, unlike (at least Michigan) where the state takes their cut every time the car is sold no matter if it's the first or tenth time.
Adrian_Thompson said:In reply to 93EXCivic :
One thing that is a shock to a lot of people moving, or even visiting the UK or mainland Europe is the sticker shock. Life is way more expensive there. Take a vacation there before committing and see how you fare with prices.
Yeah I did recently. I mean I am sure we would be fine if we could figure out a job for my wife. We would have to downsize house sizes though. Gas and houses to me were the two big sticker shocks.
I lived in Oxford for 3 months as a kid and been over there 9 times.
When I moved to 'Murica I had a bitch of a time getting a mortgage because American banks are incapable of running credit checks in Canada, BUT my insurance company found all three speeding tickets and politely gave me 14 days to make other arrangements.
docwyte said:I tried to move to Australia about 12 year ago. There was a University position available. I got a call from the Dean there and the first thing he asked me was if I was an Aussie ExPat living in the USA. When I said no, I'm American, that ended the interview.
Something about the Visa laws made me unemployable there.
So far, the only Americans I've known who have moved to Australia have done so via marriage.
When I asked my US immigration lawyer about getting a green card, he told me (with a straight face) to get married. He wasn't worth much...
I have some friends who have emigrated to Oz without marrying Aussie girls. It's not easy, but it can be done.
Adrian_Thompson said:Wow, just rememberd another big shock for people moving here. Every where else sales tax, VAT, whatever it's called where you are is already factored in to the price displayed on products, up to and including cars etc.
This one was true for me as well.
Two more that I remembered:
- The date format drove me crazy at first MM/DD/YY vs DD/MM/YY
- Math division and how to the numbers go up and down instead of always down. I could never follow this. I still have a hard time helping my kids with this.
Here's a few things that shocked me when I first moved to Hungary:
Commercials: When watching US programming in Hungary, their commercials were so short by comparison that the shows would end at the 20-minute mark
Different cultures: In Hungary we could drive an hour and a half and be in Vienna. Three or four hours to Venice, Italy. Punch south to Slovenia. North 45 minutes to Slovakia. We were barely half a tank from a different language and a completely different culture. One time we took 2-weeks off and drove to Istanbul and back! When we got back to the states we were bored and looking for a road trip. No matter which direction we pointed ourselves, we just couldnt get excited about the destination. Same language, same currency, same people, just a different city...
Beer: Beer is CHEAP in Europe! I got so used to drinking 1-euro beers at ye local pub that I couldnt fathom actually paying the asking price for beer back in the states (nearly $10 for a 6-pack of Rainier after taxes!). I started brewing everything I drank. Fermented apple juice, skeeter pee, pears that fell off the tree in the back yard... ANYTHING to avoid paying US prices. When we visited Rome, an espresso was like 3-euro but beer at the stand outside the coffee shop was only 1-euro. (you can guess what I drank for my "wake up" in the morning). Also, alcohol isn't taboo at all (neither is sex, nudity, or Starbucks holiday mugs)
Hungarians are everywhere! Now that I know what to look for, I'm running into Hungarians EVERYWHERE! I'm absolutely convinced that they're the worlds largest invisible population...
Kids are treated much differently: When I was young, it wasn't uncommon to be sternly reminded "kids should be seen, not heard" when we were out in public. In Europe, and to a much larger degree here in Kuwait, kids are free to be kids (and aren't seen as bothersome). In Kuwait kids are treated like royalty and it's everything we can do to keep people from buying them crap. When we took them with us to apply for Mrs. Hungary's drivers license they were immediately taken in to the managers office(s) and fed chocolate. We eat regularly at an open air market and on more than one occasion the waiters had toys and candy for them (loud toys... ugh).
(sorry, I'm at work now and all the things I didn't have time to post on the weekend are coming back to me)
Energy is much more expensive in Europe. Our heating and electricity bill was WAY higher in Europe. Same with gasoline ($8 a gallon at the time). I can see why places like Germany are big into solar (wind and geo thermal in Hungary) and cars that get 50mpg. Not so much in Kuwait, but I get the reasoning as to why that is.
Eating out is a much different experience outside of the US. You're not rushed. You're also not going to get anything after your dinner is delivered unless you ask for the waiters attention. To me it seems more like a relaxing "event" outside of the US.
Football (Futbol?) is serious business: In our small Hungarian town of about 30k people (maybe) they had columns of police in full riot gear, in formation outside the entrance to the ONE football match we attended. We were in line to get our tickets and I had our 2-year old on my shoulders. The crowd started to get pushy and I remember telling Mrs. Hungary: "well, it cant be that bad, the police still have their visors (on their helmets) up."
On cue there was a whistle from the head LEO and the visors went down, they did a "left face" and were marching our way. We scooted our butts out of that crowd quick fast and in a hurry. We found out later that the crowd was concerned that they'd run out of tickets, and that's why they got pushy. We waited 'till the mini riot was over to buy ours. We probably missed the first 10 minutes of the game (between our town's team and some other similarly sized towns team that I had never heard of...). I'm now deathly afraid to attend a real football match.
While written languages may differ, numbers on phone dials dont (I still cant figure that one out)
Commas are used as decimal points and decimal points are used as commas. but not all the time. You gotta stare at it for a while and consider the context.
and last but not least: Every country has the most beautiful women in the world.
Threadsurection. GameboyRMH referenced this thread in the health care discussion. It's not even a year old but I'd forgotten about it. I'm brining it up as there are some really great anecdotes, stories, views here that I think people would find interesting.
yeahhhhhhhhh.
As a Roman Catholic growing up in the UK I remember how strict gun control went. We didn't get any.
I think my head exploded half way through one of the above posts.
No I don't have guns here. Once again not allowed in my jurismydiction.
And as for being a subject I thought the War of 1812 resolved all that? Mais non?
Europe is cool. Even England. Expensive yes but then so are the American coasts.
Absolutely do it. The motorsports alone will be worth it - especially the rally racing and the Clubmans/Grassrootsroots racing scene.
Not forgetting sportsbike racing.
I just read that one of my dream cars as a yute is practically worthless now - The Vauxhall/Opel Calibra. 
Expatriating is something I've thought about for YEARS but completely gave up all hope because I figured I would never be able to find a job and/or afford it. This thread gives me a little bit of hope. I can also understand Hungary Bill's view on violence - I grew up in a small town in the deep south where violent crime basically didn't exist. Now I live in Baltimore and I haven't felt safe in five years and can't wait to leave
I wouldn't worry about learning a language - I was a linguist for 12 years in the Army. But are there other developed nations where I could actually afford to live (I do have a small military retirement to help) and enjoy that storied high quality of life, that also includes plenty of race cars and autocrossing and stuff like that? I imagine sacrifices would have to be made.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
Expand on your comment about inheritance taxes for US residents who aren't citizens (me) if you would , please.
I've been looking a lot at moving to Asia for a while. I have plenty of in's to move there and am well loved with my colleagues I work with there. Living in Singapore in expensive but I know for sure I could get a job there and immigrate there. Part of me just says do it but I know my life would be a lot different there. It keeps popping into my mind as of late. I just feel so much at home there.
In reply to infinitenexus :
Easiest way is usually either by finding an international company that sends you abroad, or by starting a business on foreign soil.
Another realitively easy way is to teach English abroad, but that tends to pay very small peanuts.
One thing to keep in mind about the cost of living is that you may have to lower your standard of living considerably for a bit until you get things moving. When I first moved to the UK I didn't earn that much (I did have a job though that I got before I moved there) so I lived in a fairly cheap part of town, first in a shared flat and then a modest house. If you live like the locals things tend to be a lot more affordable - a 1000 sq ft house is considered small in the US, but a decent to generously sized place in, say, the UK.
In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :
I think he's referring to these type of pitfalls: https://blog.massmutual.com/post/married-to-a-non-citizen-3-estate-planning-traps
I fall into that cetegory as well so I'll really have to read up on this, too.
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