If people knew the cost and logistics of burying power lines for a country like the USA, it would stop coming up.
If people knew the cost and logistics of burying power lines for a country like the USA, it would stop coming up.
In reply to crankwalk :
Burying banana cable from a building to a gate that's ~200ft or less away is expensive enough.
I couldn't imagine burying miles upon miles or power lines.
Some o' you city slickers might be unaware of just how recently the Rural Electrification Administration substantially completed its task.
https://americanhistory.si.edu/blog/rural-electrification
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_Electrification_Act
From the wiki article:
Speaker of the House Sam Rayburn was a major proponent of the REA, which he helped pass in 1936 as Chairman of the House Interstate and Foreign Commerce Committee. He proudly stated in 1959 that ninety percent of farm homes in the U.S. were electrified, compared to three percent in the early 1930s.[3]
A minor update on this:
There is suspicion (nothing confirmed yet) that the large fire in the norther part of LA (that burned a number of houses), was started by a transformer on a power pole...
Another update:
Looks like the other large fires in CA (the Kincad fire in northern CA) was caused by a transmission line. This seems to be confirmed. The other large fire (Tick fire, souther CA) is not confirmed yet, but it looks to have stated under a power pole that was indicating issues at the time.
The interesting thing to me is that although CA has always had fires, some because of roadways (cars or stuff coming out of cars), some where arson, and obviously other reasons. It's just a bit strange that there have been two consecutive years of two large fires each, all cause by power lines. Perhaps the electrical infrastructure is reaching a critical level of age or lack of maintenance? Perhaps they are just paying more attention to it now (e.g. summer of the shark)
Just wondering if we talked about the Tesla power wall?
Seems like a good time to start selling them.
In reply to aircooled :
My skepticism alarm was going off when I heard PG&E quickly rushed to point out that their equipment may have caused the fire, and how it was in an area where they did not shut off the power. Almost like a “see, this is why we need to go 3rd world on you guys and shut it down when it’s windy.” Rather than take responsibility for the years of neglect, I think they are pushing the blame to the silly customers that complained when they were shut down. Like it’s a reasonable expectation to not have power when it’s windy. Not in a blizzard, hurricane, or tornado. Windy. Imagine if any other piece of infrastructure was treated like that. “Sorry, the Bay Bridge is closed for the next three days. It’s windy. It might collapse.” I could almost hear them smiling when they announced they may have caused the fire. Like it was the ticket they needed to jack rates again. I swear I can feel something tugging at my wallet.
In reply to crankwalk :
I have a friend in construction. He remodels houses for the rich. One of his house had a primary line cross the front yard. The homeowner wanted it buried. Burial of 500' of distribution line was going to cost right at $200k. High voltage underground cable is crazy expensive.
If the power company doesn't have the money to maintain the overhead lines. They sure can't afford to bury them.
In reply to crankwalk :
Our power goes out once every couple years. The last time it did my neighbor told me how back home in Scotland all the lines were buried. I asked why he left and he said everything there was crowded and expensive.
The winds in the LA area are less today , but coming back soon ,
The big problem is going to be wild winds in Northern California ,
Goodluck to all of you up there ,
Stay safe
Toyman01 said:In reply to crankwalk :
I have a friend in construction. He remodels houses for the rich. One of his house had a primary line cross the front yard. The homeowner wanted it buried. Burial of 500' of distribution line was going to cost right at $200k. High voltage underground cable is crazy expensive.
If the power company doesn't have the money to maintain the overhead lines. They sure can't afford to bury them.
That's a great point about the power companies not maintaining what they already have.
Our ground is frozen half the year and we have earthquakes. If there was a power line break and it was underground,paying the thawing equipment alone would be $100k to get started on it if. We have the ability to run power lines over mountains amd passes to get to folks but we could never bury them in those mountains and that's just in my state. Florida has different problems. Hawaii, deserts in Arizona... So big and diverse of a landscape. It just makes my laugh when somewhere as vast as the USA doesn't do something that works for Denmark or wherever and immediately the reason is because we are cheap and /or ignorant. Alrighty, I'm off my soapbox now.
In reply to crankwalk :
The local power company trims trees to 12' every 5 years. For incidental contact during high winds, they expect the power line to burn off the offending branch. That is why the lines have a re-closable breaker on them. It will reset itself 3 times. If at that point the branch has not burned off, it will stay off and alert the standby crews to track down the problems. It's normal. It's the way the system is designed. It's not a problem unless the power line is running through the most flammable forest in the known universe.
California is going to have to trim more often and set the reclosers to once and done.
Time to invest in a bunch of these and a handful of helicopters.
If you want to see it in action, follow this link.
Let the Branches Hit the Floor!
The idea that Europe is somehow easier to lay underground wires is pretty ridiculous.
Europe has got arid mountains, dense forests, vast areas of smaller populations. Tons of small, old towns, with narrow streets.
I work in the gas industry. We lay miles of pipe every year. Some companies lay hundreds of miles each year. Plenty of power is ran underground. It isn't bankrupting power companies. Or water companies. Or gas companies.
Europeans also have decent retirements as well, right?
Just heard today (while evacuating from work after a fire started just upwind of us) that some CA lawmakers are proposing a law (it's what they do, and they like e to do a LOT of it) that will take some of the I assume very large amount of money CA is using to "green" it's power sources (you know, to save the world), and use it instead to upgrade / fix the electrical infrastructure.
That got me thinking about how CA is planning on doing all this "greening" and of course that means basically electrical everything (cars, appliances etc)... and yet... the power grid is crap. It's almost like they have no ability to anticipate side effects / downstream effects! (that's sarcastic BTW).
And of course on the irony front, it was recently revealed that the recent fires in CA have completely negated any climate / CO2 reductions CA has made for the last 8 years!
I was also wondering how much all this cutting power, evacuating, fire fighting, actual fire damage etc. is actually costing (loss of productivity included). You have to think that would be a pretty big number vs whatever the needed upgrades costs.
pheller said:The idea that Europe is somehow easier to lay underground wires is pretty ridiculous.
Europe has got arid mountains, dense forests, vast areas of smaller populations. Tons of small, old towns, with narrow streets.
And they still have loads of above ground power lines too. The entirety of Europe doesn't have buried utility though lots of the densely populated city centers do. I have many pictures from Switzerland and Italy that I wish the power lines were buried since they screwed up the shot.
As a point of reference, I live in mountains above San Bernardino, CA above 5000 feet. I 'm responsible for keeping my lot clear and a defendable space around my house in the case of fire. Buy July first we are required to have the lot cleared to the dirt and remove the loam build up of pine needles and oak leaves. By the time the annual "Santa Ana" winds start up, in October, the cycle of life for the trees has produced another round of loam.
When it rains, the acorns and pine nuts sprout. After having owned and cared for our house, starting in 1987, I have come to the conclusion that trees are just another weed. A tall one at some point, but a weed.
They have a life cycle. They reproduce to the point they chock them self's in a density that exceeds the availability of water. The canopy of the disguises trees[ leaves] is trying to limit the conifers, but eventually the pines grow tall enough and they win the battle for the sun.
Sacramento will not let land owners that have tracks of forest clear the wood from their property. Gaining access to this potential resource would require roads. Roads compact the ground and could effect the run off of water into the streams that feed the delta and could effect the smelt that might live in the water. That then, can not be used to grow food. Water that is the by product of the snow accumulation in the Sierra's that because we do not have enough water storage runs to the sea.
Fun fact, Sacramento in built in the delta plain, the levies that surround the city keep the water at bay. They do not have water meters. In the middle of the central valley the homes have green grass year round. They have more water than they know what to do with.
Welcome to the land of "fruits and nuts".
In reply to crankwalk :
About 41% is underground in Europe. Mostly in the cities.
About 18% in California is underground. Mostly in the cities.
They apparently direct bury the insulated cable in Europe. In the US the lines are run in a concrete duct bank for serviceability and to keep it from getting dug up. Cost to bury in the US, somewhere between $300K and $2.4M per mile and there is 107k miles of line. It's not cost effective and will never happen. PG&E is already bankrupt.
Highly annoyed lifelong California resident here…
Google search “gallons of water required to grow one almond”…
California supplies about 80% of the United States almonds and dedicates 10%, or 80 million gallons of its state's water to grow the nut. To grow one almond requires 1.1 gallons of water and to grow a pound takes 1,900 gallons.
I Just checked Costco’s current price on almonds…um, a 48 ounce bag (three pounds so 5,700 gallons of water) sells for $21.97. So, in the world of almonds, water generates $3.85 all-up sales per 1,000 gallons.
My lawn looks like E36 M3 due to mandatory rationing…15 extra gallons per day would have it looking great…that’s $21.10 per year in Almond/Water all-up sales value.
My options…
Just charge me the all-up net sales value almond price of $21.10 per year to have a nice lawn.
It’s a joke to pretend that a gallon of water spent on almonds is somehow fundamentally different than a gallon spent on making my lawn look nice. I mean what are we saying…a person that decides to eat almonds even though they consume a huge amount of water and there’s a nearly infinite number of lower water consumption alternatives available is somehow morally superior, takes priority, is more important than someone that would prefer to have a nice lawn.
See also low flow toilets that clog up far more often (somehow, I’m supposed to pay a plumber 100’s of dollars to un-clog my toilet so water can be diverted to people that can buy three pounds of almonds = 5,700 gallons of water at Costco for $21.97).
FWIW, I’m in Costa Rica right now on business…I got a Book of Faces alert from a High School friend of mine this morning…he’s in the 90+ percent income range and has given up on California…moving to Arizona…had enough with being taxed to death and being told he’s a piece of E36 M3 for not giving more; Goodbye.
Generally the infrastructure in this country is old. No one wants to spend money on it because taxes and government is the problem.
we had a huge ice storm in Connecticut when I lived there. 3/4 of the states population was dark. I asked a buddy who worked for the power company and he said it was mostly because the lines were above ground and old. They were so old many of the cables had no insulation left on them and were just bare wires. So a quick touch of a twig could short two conductors together and at a minimum blow the fuses on the nearest transformer. At worst it would assplode the transformer. We were out of power for 13 days with a newborn in that one. Will never forget it.
Donebrokeit said:I swear this could be a chapter in
Atlas Shrugged.
Gov Newson is already calling out "dog eat dog" capitalism. I doubt he ever heard of Ayn Rand but she certainly knew his type.
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
Just a FYI, all overhead power lines are uninsulated, even if they are new. The only insulated overhead lines are phone and cable.
All I'm going to say is that we all make a choice every day to live where we do. Humans have been uprooting their lives and moving to greener pastures for as long as there have been humans. Live in a place where you can live your best life. If you decide that's CA, with it's climate (both natural and political), then you just accept the drawbacks as the cost of doing business, and hopefully do your best to mitigate.
Fueled by Caffeine said:Generally the infrastructure in this country is old. No one wants to spend money on it because taxes and government is the problem.
we had a huge ice storm in Connecticut when I lived there. 3/4 of the states population was dark. I asked a buddy who worked for the power company and he said it was mostly because the lines were above ground and old. They were so old many of the cables had no insulation left on them and were just bare wires. So a quick touch of a twig could short two conductors together and at a minimum blow the fuses on the nearest transformer. At worst it would assplode the transformer. We were out of power for 13 days with a newborn in that one. Will never forget it.
This is what makes me want to get a generator.
Fueled by Caffeine said:Generally the infrastructure in this country is old. No one wants to spend money on it because taxes and government is the problem.
I suspect that very few Californians would claim that they don't pay enough in taxes, given that California has the highest state income tax rate in the nation, and ranks near the "top" in terms of highest total tax burden. There's plenty of money going into government. Perhaps it's what government is doing (and not doing) with that money that is the real issue.
Maybe they just need to up the taxes.
That'll solve the issue.
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