Frustrations with interviewing in this wild job market

In reply to GameboyRMH :

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

That makes sense. Making employees feel replaceable to spur them on to perform better has downsides though. If I was working at a company and saw an ad up for a position I'm in, I'd think I needed to stay at the top of my game to keep it. But I'd also think that I need to start looking for more secure employment elsewhere rather than aiming for a long-term future at that company, especially if I thought I was already doing well at that job. My last job was like that.

It could also disincentivize workers from helping each other out - both because workers who are doing well and could train others might not be secure enough about their own performance to do anything but grind away at their own work, and they might be more inclined to let somebody else get caught at the back of the pack so that they'll be safe a little while longer.
 

I get what you are saying, but to be honest- a worker that would be disincentivized with helping others because they want to stay on top or would rather work a more secure job elsewhere than worry about their performance- is likely one that I wouldn't want anyway. So I'd say if it's keeping those employees away, it's working as intended. While good employees have good performance, not all with good performance are good employees. Some are insufferable to work with and poison the whole team. Sometimes they just aren't a good fit, no matter how skilled or productive they are. Often there are warning signs of this at the interview. Every time I ignored my gut and hired a "good" employee despite those signs, I regretted it. 
 

Keep in mind, it's expensive to hire and train an employee. The employer would have to see the new person as a significant upgrade. A decent employee shouldn't have anything to worry about if they are doing their job and not causing other issues. I'll also say that in my experience, places with higher standards end up being much nicer places to work for everyone. 

Steve_Jones said:

GameboyRMH said:

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

If I was working at a company and saw an ad up for a position I'm in, I'd think I needed to stay at the top of my game to keep it. But I'd also think that I need to start looking for more secure employment elsewhere rather than aiming for a long-term future at that company, especially if I thought I was already doing well at that job. My last job was like that.

That's because you look for the negative reasons vs the positive ones. Maybe if you figured your job was posted because they wanted to move you up, you'd have more success. Instead you decided you needed a different job, how'd that work out?

I think it would take rather specific timing on top of a heaping helping of optimism for anyone to have any chance at thinking that the company's posting your job because they want you to move up. Typically you'd expect to get lots of hints from management about a potential promotion first, likely even just asking if you're interested in a higher-ranking position.

In the case of that company there was no timing, it was more or less a constant, at first it seemed to be because they wanted to grow the team to reduce the workload as they said, so it didn't seem like a negative at all. With time it became clear that they'd never really grow the team and were just stack-ranking people out and replacing them with fresh meat which was purely negative. There were lots of other bad things about that job that made me look for other work pretty much as soon as I thought I'd been at the company long enough that it wouldn't look bad on my resume, the job ad situation was hardly a factor.

Boost_Crazy said:

Keep in mind, it's expensive to hire and train an employee. The employer would have to see the new person as a significant upgrade. A decent employee shouldn't have anything to worry about if they are doing their job and not causing other issues. I'll also say that in my experience, places with higher standards end up being much nicer places to work for everyone. 

That's the problem with making employees feel replaceable though, you don't have much control over exactly how replaceable they end up feeling...they don't know that the job ad is an empty threat (it wouldn't have any effect on them if they did), so they'll always think they do have something to worry about. The constant threat of replacement makes them think that "doing a decent job" is a moving target and they don't know how much margin for error they have at any time, and that a couple of slip-ups at the wrong time could send them out the door. The cost of hiring isn't considered because the job ad looks like a clear sign that the company has already decided it wants to hire someone (the same impression it gives job seekers), the only question is who might get replaced.

That kind of environment might work for an investment firm or a pro sports team or a megacorp's sales team, but for a lot of ordinary workplaces where workers see their jobs as a livelihood rather than an elite sport, where you don't need a top team of world-beating superstars, that can make people look for something more stable when, unknown to them, they probably don't really need to. A worker would need to know they're consistently among the best at such a company to feel as safe from the threat of replacement as most any worker would at a company that only posts job ads when there is a real need to hire someone. Those are only going to be a fraction of the people and if there isn't a lot of chance involved, it will mostly be the same people.

It's that same worry born from the fear the job ads are intended to instill that can make people act more selfishly. If people with bills piling up at home and a family to support are made to think that they need to choose between generously helping a coworker and looking out for #1, could you blame them? At that last company I worked for where there was generally zero time to spare, I took some time to help a new guy who seemed to be struggling, but I felt I could afford to take that risk, having a decent bit of money saved up and low expenses from being single and thrifty...would a typical worker barely staving off a repo'd car and an eviction do that, especially if they thought that another worker's underperformance could keep them safe from the chopping block? When workers are made to feel replaceable, that perverse incentive will always be there, and lots of people are desperate enough to accept its benefits through inaction.

That guy came to me too late BTW, he got canned not too long after our unofficial training session. Maybe I wasn't the first person he tried to get help from...

All employees and all employers are replaceable, the degree of difficulty of replacement is variable, however.

Gameboy did you get a job yet?  Or is this another "woe is me" post?  Get that welding cert yet?

I always joked with my bosses: "I'm humble enough to know that I can be replaced but I'm cocky enough to know that it would be a downgrade."

In reply to GameboyRMH :

The last few people you are replying to are Employers that hire people, and we are giving you the reasons Employers do what WE do.

You keep telling us we are wrong. 

In reply to GameboyRMH :

That's the problem with making employees feel replaceable though, you don't have much control over exactly how replaceable they end up feeling...they don't know that the job ad is an empty threat (it wouldn't have any effect on them if they did), so they'll always think they do have something to worry about. The constant threat of replacement makes them think that "doing a decent job" is a moving target and they don't know how much margin for error they have at any time, and that a couple of slip-ups at the wrong time could send them out the door. The cost of hiring isn't considered because the job ad looks like a clear sign that the company has already decided it wants to hire someone (the same impression it gives job seekers), the only question is who might get replaced.

That kind of environment might work for an investment firm or a pro sports team or a megacorp's sales team, but for a lot of ordinary workplaces where workers see their jobs as a livelihood rather than an elite sport, where you don't need a top team of world-beating superstars, that can make people look for something more stable when, unknown to them, they probably don't really need to. A worker would need to know they're consistently among the best at such a company to feel as safe from the threat of replacement as most any worker would at a company that only posts job ads when there is a real need to hire someone. Those are only going to be a fraction of the people and if there isn't a lot of chance involved, it will mostly be the same people.

It's that same worry born from the fear the job ads are intended to instill that can make people act more selfishly. If people with bills piling up at home and a family to support are made to think that they need to choose between generously helping a coworker and looking out for #1, could you blame them? At that last company I worked for where there was generally zero time to spare, I took some time to help a new guy who seemed to be struggling, but I felt I could afford to take that risk, having a decent bit of money saved up and low expenses from being single and thrifty...would a typical worker barely staving off a repo'd car and an eviction do that, especially if they thought that another worker's underperformance could keep them safe from the chopping block? When workers are made to feel replaceable, that perverse incentive will always be there, and lots of people are desperate enough to accept its benefits through inaction.

That guy came to me too late BTW, he got canned not too long after our unofficial training session. Maybe I wasn't the first person he tried to get help from...

I think you misunderstood or took it a bit too literally when I said always hiring. I didn't mean actively running job postings on everyone's exact position- that would be a bit weird. I meant that I would never turn away an application or stop conducting interviews just because all positions were filled. And while I don't think that is the same thing as constantly threatening employees with replacement, they need to understand that if they fail to meet the needs of the business, I am willing and able to replace them. Early in a previous career, I was a very successful manager. I ran circles around others, I definitely thought I was irreplaceable. One day one of my employees dropped the ball. It was not the first time. When my boss came to me, because I was the one responsible for their results- I responded much like you did above. They are a good person, it was a mistake, they need their job, have bills to pay, etc. etc.. He said that while he appreciates my compassion, he wondered if they would feel the same if their mistakes put my job on the line. Would they help me pay my bills of their continued failure cost me my job, because no one is irreplaceable, including me. I thought he was the biggest shiny happy person at the time, and there was no way they could replace me. But over the years I realized more and more that he was right. I don't think employees should be under constant threat, but they shouldn't be too comfortable either. 

Trying to stay positive after a full year without a job.  Just posted this on LinkedIn.

Hello everybody, I am looking for a new position. With over 30 years of valuable experience in the automotive industry, I am a highly experienced engineer (chassis systems), and manager, with OEMs and Tier 1 suppliers (Ford, Visteon, and most recently Iljin). Having worked with individuals and groups across all levels from skilled trades to company owners and board members, I have developed an ardent ability to build and lead highly effective teams. This industry and engineering knowledge and experience are backed up by a lifetime of passion for cars, automotive culture, and motorsport.
I have reached the point in my career where I believe it’s important to consider roles where I can use my experience and skills in a customer or internal facing position, as a highly effective engineer, yet also as a means to help and mentor the next generation of engineers and leaders.
Proven skills and abilities in many areas including:
- Chassis components expert
- Product and component testing
- Program management
- Vehicle and component launches
- Global product planning
- Exceptional team builder
- Cost reduction
- Product design and innovation
- Excellent technical / non-technical interpreter & communicator
- New manufacturing processes

If you have a position for a highly motivated individual with a real wealth of experience, please feel free to message me.

hashtag#automotiveengineering hashtag#automotive hashtag#autoindustry hashtag#electric hashtag#Cars hashtag#brakes hashtag#detroit hashtag#engineering hashtag#OpenToWork

I"ve instantly got six people contact me.  Getting back to them, within 2-3 responses they all tell me my resume has great content, but it has a poor format, and inevtiably offering their skills.  Now, I"m sure my resume could do with some work, but it's been specifically looked at by various recruiters who I know from when I was hiring people.  I"ve had friends, colleges, and peers look at it.  I even had the State unemployment person look at it.  They have all offered minor changes, but all have told me the content is great.  How do you pick a good resume writer/reviwer?

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Is that your resume?  It reads like an introductory profile post.

I really like the positive vibe it gives (while highlighting your experience), but when I was hiring I never would have read it because of it's informality and wordiness.

Hiring agents see a LOT of resumes.  The first level of scrutinizing them is to scan them quickly and dump 70% of them so that you can manage the remaining applications.  I know that sounds harsh, but it's kinda the way it works.  The standard format enables quick scanning to get through the first level.

I would take all the good stuff you've got there (positive attitude, motivation, etc) and put them into a nice cover letter.  Then attach it to a typical format resume.

Tip... Resumes are boring.  EXCEPT for the last section "Other Interests".  Lots of people skip this part.  Don't skip it.  It's the one time you get to say something creative that isn't boring and might catch someone's eye (and show that you are not a boring person).  Mine had "amateur race car builder".  The CEO was intrigued enough to bring me in for an interview and ask about that.  I told him I raced a Yugo.  He hired me on the spot. (and said, "I don't have anyone working for me who thinks like you.  We need that kind of creativity".

The risk of "Other Interests" is that you may say something that disqualifies you completely.  It's a risk worth taking.  If you say "I like to volunteer at the soup kitchen" and they think that is a waste of time and really shouldn't have even been on your resume, that's fine.  That's not a place you would have enjoyed working.

I'm sorry this has dragged on so long for you.  Best wishes!

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Maybe consider hiring one of those people who have reached out to you?

Their fees should not be astronomical, and if you don't like what they write just throw it away and try someone else.

In reply to SV reX :

No, that's just what I posted. My resume is a normal two page affair.  Having hired many people over the years, it's based on what I consider best practices.

In reply to SV reX :

Absolutely, but I'm trying to figure out which one to go with!

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Doesn't matter much. Its highly like they are all in the Phillipines (and probably understand English grammar better than most Americans!)

Is their fee reasonable?

SV reX said:

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Doesn't matter much. Its highly like they are all in the Phillipines (and probably understand English grammar better than most Americans!)

Is their fee reasonable?

So I now have seven people trying to sell me their, or their preferred, resume writers.  The majority seem to be in Nigeria.  Not sure if that's the scam it sounds like, or there's a genuine industry of resume writers there.  Getting mixed messages when I goolge.  I hate to be ther person who rejects a service based on location, but I can't help feeling a US based writer will be more in tune with US hiring practices.  Although with the hideous march of (so called) 'AI' screening, perhaps it no longer matters.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

I don't think ANYONE is in tune with US hiring practices (including people directly in HR).  It's a very serious convoluted mess.

I don't think you need someone who understands US hiring practices. You need someone well versed in English grammar and resume structure. 
 

I respect your concerns about Nigeria. That would be a red flag for me too (but not a deal breaker)

I paid some outfit about a buck-fitty to rewrite my ancient resume.  I'm still not sure that I'm happy with it - so far I've only gotten one interview out of it, every other interview has been because I knew someone that could reach out on my behalf.  I agree that there probably isn't anyone who has a handle on how that's all working these days because it's a damned mess.  Since I'm a student at the local university, I think I'm going to mosey to their career services office in the coming weeks to see if they can help me.  I'm afraid that they're more capable with helping folks find their first job rather than helping mid-career people find their last job, but it's probably worth a shot.

I'm working on my 120th carefully targeted job application now. It's been over 1 year of looking for work and closer to 1.5yrs of being out of a job. I've applied for anything I think I could do that doesn't have totally wacky hours, from work as basic as an oil change tech or working in the backroom of a thrift store to sysadmin jobs on containerized clusters that need all my IT skills and more, to a motorsport industry job(!) that needs a really oddball set of skills that I have and also doesn't pay very well (but would prefer people who are fluent in 2-5 specific languages).

Still no responses other than for the NOC job with the rotating 4x12 shifts and the worst job in North America, Amazon truck driver.

Edit: I've also heard of software developers in the US who've been out of a job for 8+ months, and another full-stack web dev in the US who lost their job in 2023 and has only been able to find work as a mall santa since.

Young's Equipment in Watrous, SK is hiring. 25 minutes down the road from me.

They need a parts counter person.

The job requirement is 2 feet and a heartbeat.

Rent is cheap in Watrous.

GameboyRMH said:

Edit: I've also heard of software developers in the US who've been out of a job for 8+ months, and another full-stack web dev in the US who lost their job in 2023 and has only been able to find work as a mall santa since.

Just more anecdotal stuff, but I just saw a WSJ article yesterday stating that the number of "office workers" out of work for more than six months is up 50% over the last year.  I have a family member with a technical phd (from a genuine/prestigious US university) who has been out of work for a year after NASA cut funding to the project he was attached to.  It sounds like it's really rough out there.  While I understand the impulse to say "just get a job, any job", it's also not entirely reasonable to expect adult professionals to take menial work for a fraction of the pay necessary to sustain their lifestyle.  Folks with significant debt (many Americans) are between a rock and a hard place.

If you have significant debt, ANY paycheck is better than no paycheck. 

Nobody said you had to flip burgers forever.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

The worst job in North America is having NO job.

I just went back a few pages and did a ctrl+f for "relocate" and "move" but nothing came up... I've always interpreted the phrase "go where the wind takes you" to actually mean "go where the money wants you".

If your local opportunities are this bad, have you considered relocating for a job? I've moved states twice for jobs already. Fresh out of college without any better options, I made a hard choice to move to a low-desirability (but also very low COL) area in the boring, cold, rural Midwest for a pretty great job. It worked out.

So, on the resumes.  Still working through and playing with some free online stuff to spruce up my own resume.  In my search for a writer, I've got people in Nigeria and now the Phillippiens wanting to do it for me for $100-250.  I asked on LinkedIn for specific recommendations.  A guy who had my prior job two people previous sent me a recommendation.  I reached out to them, and this is their fee structure 

We offer 5 levels of packages - All packages include Resume, LinkedIn Profile and Cover Letter...
Career Growth (Salary 75k- 99k) - $589
Professional (Salary 100k- 149k) - $689
Executive (Salary range $150k - 224K)-$789
Sr. Exec (salary range $225K to $299K) - $889
C-Suite (C-Level Title, salary range over $300)- $989

Eeek!

As far as relocating, while the vast majority of positions I've applied for are in Michigan I've also applied to the UK, Ontario, Ohio, Georgia, Tennessee, California (many), and Alaska.  The further the move, the more I'd need to make the jump, but I'm certainly open to relocation if need be.

Total applications for 2024,  199 positions, 39 interviews of various types.

That fee structure for resume work sounds like a crime in action.  If you want some help with your resume, I'd offer to do a basic spell/grammar/etc check for free.  It's worth at least what it will cost you.

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

I'm rehashing it myself right now with an online (*) AI tool to help with getting the correct ATS, ISS, iCIMS formatting.  I may well throw it out to a few people later.  thx for the offer.

Another question.  What are peoples views on how far back you should go with experience on your resume?  A lot of people keep telling me to hard stop at 15 years.  The thing is I have34 years experience, and some of that experience I gained back in the 90's is still relevant, and has at least got me to a couple of first interviews.  Thoughts?

(*) I hate (so called) 'AI', as it's the most misused word in the English language right now.  It's like slapping 'Turbo' on every household consumer product in the 80's