Frustrations with interviewing in this wild job market

SV reX said:

In reply to TravisTheHuman :

The money is definitely in the small jobs. 
 

I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing.  

I totally believe there is money in small jobs.  But a lot of handymen will not call back* if you ask them to quote a 1/2hour job, OR they quote a price that feels outrageous (because it has to cover their windshield time).  Bundling small jobs at a flat rate is beneficial for both the handymen and the client - but I never had much luck as a client getting that to work.

About 25 years ago I worked for a handyman and that was 50-75% of his work.  He had 5-10 clients that always needed something and he had a running task list for each property.  We would bounce between them depending on the urgency, weather, etc. and it seemed to be a great solution for everyone involved.

*A lot of them will never call back, period.  The bar is very low.

BoxheadTim said:

In reply to NeedaJob :

Out of the options you mentioned, I would lean towards the handyman business more than the "rideshare". Uber/Lyft has struck me as "taxi driving for people who are bad at math" as it generally doesn't pay that well on average as my understanding is that you can't just drive during surge times, and once you factor in wear and tear on the car plus the extra insurance cost and all that, it's not a good mathing thing.

We were actually discussing this in the GRM AC League recently, and the idea of only driving around surge pricing events (concerts, big sports games etc) came up as a possible way to actually make money with your car on Uber rather than merely extracting value from it.

I've looked into it and while Uber doesn't technically prevent a driver from only driving around surge events, practically it's precarious work because surge rides attract lower review scores from riders angry about surge pricing, and if your score gets too low your pay will be decreased or you could get kicked from Uber, so it's sort of a coffin corner of flying in the Uber pay stratosphere. Remember that Uber profits massively from surge pricing as well so they have a vested interest in keeping the supply of drivers restricted when a lot of people will be looking for a ride at once.

So it's something you can do to make a decent bit of money, but probably not for long.

In reply to TravisTheHuman :

I was agreeing. 
 

But charging for windshield time is an absolute necessity. If you are not willing to pay for it, you are not a good match for this service as a customer. 

In reply to NeedaJob :

The bright side is you have no golden handcuffs preventing you from being creative. So starting a company yourself as others have suggested is about as low risk as it gets right now.

i wanted to make a suggestion from another perspective. Can you make positive changes in a different part of your life? Like start exercising every day, learning to cook, learn a new language, etc? Things that can be done for cheap or free, get your mind focusing on wins/progress again instead of losses, and break up the drudgery.

In reply to TravisTheHuman :

Correct. A lot of them don't call back. That's why it's a good business. 
 

I will throw in that some sort of general contractor handyman job has great potential to make decent money with lots of available work.  The TRICK is, and as I mention to people all the time, you have to be able to:

     Don't be an a-hole, work hard, do what you say, do a good job, charge a reasonable price (that does NOT mean rock bottom), get it done in a reasonable time.

Amazingly, this seems to be VERY hard for most in the business to do.  It seems a bit of a "in the world of the blind, the man with one eye will be king" kind of thing.  You get a reputation of the above, you will never be out of work and will never even need to advertise!

In reply to aircooled :

"Reasonable" price...

The challenge for a Handyman business is that in the real world you won't ever be able to go to more than 2 jobs in a day no matter how small they are. You're still gonna have to drive across town for the 2nd job, do a run to Home Depot, chat with the customer, etc. If you promise more than 2 per day, you will be breaking your promises. (And have unhappy customers)
 

So, there is no such thing as a 30 minute job. The MINIMUM job is a half a day. If you don't bill a minimum of a half a day for every job, you will be out of business soon.  Then you won't be able to service ANY customers. 
 

Half a day. If paying a skilled tradesman for a half a day's wages sounds like a lot for a small job, then you are not the right customer for a handyman business. Your job is a good DIY candidate. 
 

Most customers are uncomfortable with this. 

Alcohol is legal, but if someone is drinking everyday, it's an issue. No idea why people don't see marijuana that way. As an employer I don't need my people smelling like alcohol or pot, legal or not. Everyone that does it regularly will tell you it doesn't stink, and doesn't affect the job, sorry, it does both. If it's not addictive, ask a pot smoker to not light up for a month, watch the excuses. I think that's hurting a lot of people looking for work, but they will disagree, as they're getting turned down.

That being said, as a few have said, small handyman jobs are what I'd be looking into. I know a few people making good money hanging doors, attic stairs, toilets etc. Quick, easy(ish) few hour jobs, people will pay $2-$300 for. 

Another down side of running a handyman business is that you have to be customer facing. You will be handling 8-10 customers per week.  
 

Some people don't do that well. 

Wow.  First of all thank you all for the outpouring of understanding, advice, comments and anecdotes.  I really appreciate it, and just hearing something back from someone outside my immediate friends and family group is a big mental health help, wea especially, I really appreciate it.

On the weed, I only mentioned it from a hiring test POV.  I'm a fully function human, not a Cheech and Chong stoner.  I'm most certainly not baked 24/7 as someone stated.  Personal use hasn't stopped me working, getting patents, building things, renovating houses, physically excer3cising etc for the past decade.  I have left the sate, and country, for weeks at a time and not touched the stuff.  I use it for a number of reasons.  I've never been asked for a drug test, let alone failed one, but because it can be a hot button topic, see baked 24/7 above.

Interesting feedback on the ride share, and I've just had that backed up.  I'd forgotten the son of some friends did Uber Black for a while, this was a few years ago when they were still expanding, and fighting various legal battles with different cities and countries.  My wife reminded me and reached out.  He kinda reinforced what every one said here.  He also commented at over the course of about a year, every few months he ended up getting less and less per mile.  He concentrated on surge times, especially Friday, Saturday nights, holidays, parties etc.  He said at first Uber were great about problem passengers and people throwing up (in a then brand new Navigator), he'd send in the proof and cleaning fee, and everything would instantly get reimbursed.  Then it started taking longer, less things were covered, then less of each claim was covered.  HE said it was barely worth it, even ignoring vehicle wear and tear.

Before talking about the handyman thing, I wanted to comment on the auto mechanic question.  I don't want to do that.  20 years ago if you offered me the chance to work on a house project Vs a car project, it would be the car all day long.  But I've grown tired of that.  I posted here about three years ago that I was done with working on DD's, toys only as I just didn't get the buzz anymore.  Also, I'm an OK mechanic.  Sure I'm the knowledgeable, experienced guy in the real world, but I don't consider myself as good as all the other GRM peeps I know locally.  I am far happier, and more confident in my DIY over wrenching abilities.

I'm really interested in the feedback on the handyman stuff, especially what TravisTheHuman said about Xper hour.  That is how I've operated up until now.  I started with $50/hr friends and family, and I've told them to tell others $70/hr, although I haven't done anything other than my immediate circle.  I'm certainly happy with hanging TV's, unclogging sinkers, repair drywall, installing appliances etc. especially if that's what people have the hardest time getting people to come out for.  I'd like some more feedback on what people know of as hourly rates if possible.  The work I've done so far is things like installing a mail box.  Building fences, replacing faucets, preventing critters from getting into houses, smoke detectors, drywall/plaster repair and painting, some yard clean up (the biggest back killer) etc.  That has all been at the $50/hr.  I was asked to quote replacing someone's kitchen floor with cheap laminate.  They wanted a fixed price, so I calculated how long I figured it would take in hours, multiplied by the $70/hr rate, rounded down to the nearest $50 and gave them that.  I figured that even if it took longer, I'd still be at my $50/hr rate.  Silence, even though I had done several little per hour jobs previously.  Honestly I think I'd be happier bouncing around the local area doing many small jobs, than taking on a large project for someone.  That gives the added benefit of being able to take a couple of days off for my back to recover if needed.  That's better than leaving someone in the lurch part way through a large job.  Also, having our own house and two rentals means I have most things I need, and anything I don't have, someone in my close social circle does.  
 

I do have a question on insurance/bonding.  My guess is most handymen don't have any, and are just rolling the dice.  I'm certainly not certified in any way.  And while I do these things for myself I think I'd turn down any electrical beyond smoke sensors and change out a socket or switch.  Same with plumbing, I'll fix your faucet, under sink, or toilet cistern, but I'd turn down replacing a hot water heater, sewage etc.  Even though I have and do, do that stuff myself.  Thoughts? Advice?

Thanks all for the help.
 

TVs are berkeleying enormous these days. There is definitely a business opportunity there, just doing wall mounts. A couple of "$100 plus parts" jobs per day is $4k per month.

In reply to NeedaJob :

I don't know where you are. Insurance/ licensing/ bonding/ etc varies by state and locality. Liability insurance is cheap. Get some. Worker's Compensation insurance will kill you. Don't get it (assuming you are in an area that doesn't require it).
 

$50 per hour is low. I'm in one of the lowest priced areas of the country and I am undercharging at $65 per hour with a 2 hour minimum. If you are near a metro area I wouldn't do it for less than $80 per hour with a 3 or 4 hour minimum. At that rate some people will say no. That's a good thing. 
 

Consider anyone who won't pay a starting rate of $200-300 as someone who won't make a good customer. The paperwork alone isn't worth messing with anything less than that. 
 

The core of your business will be FaceBook referrals.  Learn how to market through them and buy ads. Ask every customer for a review before you leave their property. 
 

Make sure you have a way to accept credit cards mobile.

TV mounts are $100 each. It's common for someone to ask me to do 4 at once.  I'm done in an hour and a half. 

In reply to wae :

I'll admit that I skimmed and skipped a little through your post about the value and worth of our work. I was too tired to give it proper attention. But I just went back and re-read it properly with good focus. 
 

Man, you really nailed it. It's SO important to go and do a thing because it affirms and records our worth.

Well said!

Lot's to think about.  My post a few up from this yesterday afternoon was done on my phone, I now see it's riddle with mistakes, but people got the gist.  Thanks.

A few more questions.  A couple of people mentioned being able to accept credit cards.  Is that still essential in today's age?  The few things I've done so far have been cash, Zelle, Venmo, etc.  Isn't that enough these days?  If I do need CC's, then what's the best app people are aware of? I know I've used apps at farmers markets etc. where the vendor has a dongle and an app on their phone/tablet, and I swipe/tap that, but I don't know the good or bad.

The small jobs people keep mentioning sounds very interesting, I really think that could be the way to go.  I had started doodling some business cards to hand out and was using. 'TOOLMAN MYSURNAME' with 'THE FIX IT ENGINEER' as the tag line.  I'm now thinking of 'SMALL JOBS' as the name, with 'THE GENTLEMAN HANDYMAN' underneath as the tag line.

All the 'windshield' time comments have got me thinking about something else.  Those in the know, what is your normal catchment area?  I was planning on starting by putting cards, with a cover note, in all the mailboxes in our sub, approx. 100 households, and advertising on the sub facebook page as a toe in the water.  Our suburban community is approx 10K people in 4 square miles.  No where is more than 6-7 mins even to the most inconvenient location.  Planning on that as an area I hadn't considered windshield time (stupid I know).  Beyond that, about 20 mins away is another city where we have one of our rentals, and I'm on the community facebook group for their.  I often see people posting 'doesn't anyone have a recommendation for some one to do XYZ.  I was thinking of advertising their as a second step.  Windshield time becomes essential then, as a round trip becomes 45-60 mins.  Do people figure in windshield time into their base rate once on the job, or do you do it as a call out, or minimum charge?

Any recommendations for basic liability insurance?

What do people do I for materials?  So far I've passed through materials at cost, but I've already got personal relationships with the people I've worked with.  I've covered getting materials in my hourly rate, but I, and the clients are all within two miles of an ACE and a Home Depot.  Specialist plumbing, lumber, etc. stores are all within 3-4 miles.  What are standard mark ups?  I"m used to 20% handling in business, is this the same for small businesses?

I'm going to find some pics and start on a face book page between other job hunting today.

Thanks for the advice peeps.  Is this still an appropriate place to post, or should I start a new Starting a Handyman business thread?

Cheers

My repair shop is in the sticks, an hour away from anywhere. My markup is 50% because, well. YOU go get it then.

I also get good-guy pricing from my suppliers so I come out at the same price or only just a little higher than the customer would be quoted from the same supplier.

You're also providing a service in finding and purchasing the supplies to do the repair. That service is worth something. Don't feel guilty about making a profit on that.

Our society acts like profit is a dirty word. If I don't make money with my business, I don't have money to spend at your business, pay my taxes, all of that. If there's no profit, everything stops.

"How High Handyman"

"Sky High Services"

"Hashish Handyman Services"

But for real, quit the dopes.  Its affecting you more than you think.  Can think of quite a few smart and reasonable friends who have gone down that path and they are definitely not the same level of mental fitness they were 5 or 10 years ago.

In reply to NeedaJob :

People get weird about paying for windshield time. So I don't tell them. 
 

If someone is willing to pay me for a half a day's work, I'm willing to drive there on my time. 
 

But I'm NOT willing to drive anywhere for 30 minutes of billable time.
 

So, a minimum rate covers it.

NeedaJob said:

A few more questions.  A couple of people mentioned being able to accept credit cards.  Is that still essential in today's age?  The few things I've done so far have been cash, Zelle, Venmo, etc.  Isn't that enough these days?  If I do need CC's, then what's the best app people are aware of? I know I've used apps at farmers markets etc. where the vendor has a dongle and an app on their phone/tablet, and I swipe/tap that, but I don't know the good or bad.

Just getting started, I wouldn't worry about credit cards. But, Square charges no monthly fees, and only charges when you actually process a payment. It's less than 3% of the transaction amount, assuming you're in person and not online. You can do chip read cards without any hardware if you have a modern phone. You can get a free swipe reader from them or $59 for a contactless reader. It would be very much worth it to get set up with credit cards as you'll expand your customer base. Lots of people just live off credit cards and putting any blocks between you and a customer is a bad idea. (Except, of course, those that weed out bad customers!)

Thank you everybody for all the comments and advice so far. This thread is really for job searching, so I am going to drop the handyman stuff here. I'll keep on here with my regular ID in the search for a "normal "job, but handyman stuff will be in the other thread under my proper ID. Thank you everybody. Back to regular job hunting in this thread.

I have a few thoughts on the handyman service. Some of this you may know already. 

First off, do it, but do it better than anyone else in town. Be presentable, on time, and do the best job you can even if it means losing money on occasion. Don't chase the small money. While you may need to price yourself competitively to start, earn a reputation for being the best, not the cheapest.

Consider buying uniform shirts or T-shirts. Look professional, act professional, and charge professional rates. 

If you go the credit card route, that's 3% right off the top or to look at it another way, $2.10/hr if you are billing $70/hr. The customer needs to pay that, plus a little. You need to keep a piece of every dollar that you touch. 

Talk to your insurance agent about liability. You need it. 

You also need an LLC for the liability protections it offers. Legal Zoom is who I used to set up mine in 2005. 

Personally, I don't think $50-$70/hr is enough. While your overhead is low now, it won't stay that way as business picks up. You not only need to earn enough to eat, you need to earn enough to pay your self-employment taxes. Those are significantly higher than simple income taxes. You also need to charge enough to pay for your vehicle, insurance, fuel, tools, business license, material disposal, and any incidental costs. One man and a truck are a lot more expensive to run than you think it is even when you are that man. The last time I did the math it cost me about $60-$65/hr to put one man in the field with a decent-looking truck. Sit down and do the math on how much everything costs you per work hour based on a 6-7-hour day. (you are going to lose an hour or two per day in billable time) Figure those costs based on having to hire someone. Then decide what your hourly rate is. I would at least double the cost. 

I don't know what handyman services charge but I can share my rates with you. We started at $70/hr in 2005. My current rate for call-out service is $145/hr with a 1.5-hour minimum. Less than that isn't worth the work to generate an invoice. That gets you one man and a truck full of tools and parts. Bid jobs are $130/man-hour. Emergency service is $225/hr with a 4-hour minimum. Windshield time is billable time one way. I don't usually bill for the return leg unless you are several hours out of town. 

Material markup ranges from 25% to 100% depending. Small items are usually 100%. The higher the cost, the lower the markup. In your shoes, I'd charge at least 30%. Beat up Lowes and HD to get better pricing. Don't forget sales tax. If you are marking up materials, you need to be collecting sales tax and paying it to the state. If you don't, expect a visit from the state boys and a huge bill. 

A couple of other thoughts. 

Get a separate bank account. Do not run this out of your personal account. A credit card is a good way to track expenses. If you are going to use a personal credit card, only use it for business and not for personal charges. Mixing business and personal is a surefire way to trigger an audit from the IRS.

I would also consider using an accountant for everything. Yes, figuring out what to pay who isn't rocket science but I firmly believe that having all your paperwork filed by an accounting firm is another good way to stay off the government's radar. I turn monthly reports over to my accountant and she handles it from there. I get an email every month telling me how much money she had to send where to keep me out of jail. 

Reputation is everything in a service business. If you make a name for yourself and have a reputation for doing great work and doing what you say you will when you say you will, you will be so busy you can pretty much charge whatever you want and people will still be lined up to pay it. If you hire people, make sure they are the best you can find. Make sure they know what your standard of work is and see to it that they do it.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. If you have any questions, give me a shout. 

Good luck. 

And...

Toymans post is great info, seriously never try to be cheapest that's the way to go out of busy fastest and have unhappy customers.

I haven't really done a lot of handyman work but what I have done is lucrative. We all kind of take advantage of the fact that we all can work on our own stuff but the reality is most can't. I fixed a lady's floor and she mentioned that she couldn't find anyone to hang up some TV mounts and put in 2 lights.  She had been looking for 3 years apparently. It took less than a day and we were well compensated for it.

Check out Uber Eats instead of Uber. Moving just food is a lot less stressful. I did it for a month or so in 2018 and after gas I cleared $20 an hour. Not bad to be in a warm environment and listening to music, a hell of a lot better than working in subzero temps which was the reason I wasn't doing construction that month. I drove a 2000 explorer with tons of miles so it wasn't depreciating anymore anyway. 2018 is a long time ago so it might have changed.

To add a couple of other things. They are kind of related. 

Communication is extremely important. 

Customers will let you get away with murder as long as you communicate with them. They absolutely hate to be ghosted. They understand that things happen. I have two guys (brothers) out this week due to a family medical emergency. My schedule is shot to crap. I have 2 service guys and 2 helpers to cover everything when I usually have 4 service guys. My admin spent several hours contacting everyone on the list and letting them know that the schedule was blown and we would be working as fast as possible to get everything done but we would be several days behind schedule. I have helpers doing service work knowing they will probably make mistakes. Which brings me to...

Own up to your mistakes. Everyone makes them. I screwed up a big job a couple of weeks ago when I missed the fact that I hadn't received an order confirmation for a large glass order. The glass needed to close up a bank during a scheduled weekend job. As soon as I realized what had happened, I called the contractor and explained the issue and what I was doing to take care of it. It pushed the job back a week. While the contractor wasn't super happy about it, he understood that E36 M3 happens and appreciated the prompt contact and the ability to plan around it. 

On occasion, my guys will accidentally damage doors, walls, and floors. Drop something or short it out and blow it up. E36 M3 happens. I've done it myself. You will do it at some point.

Own it. Make it right. Move on. 

On topic of windshield time, a years back I needed my Hydronic System fixed, one of my zones wasn't opening up. Called a local HVAC company they said they charge $100/hr  (I actually think it was more than this but that's an easier number to work with) plus parts. The tech was in my house maybe 30 mins, before running back out to get the part. Arriving a few hours later to install it - another 30 minutes or so. 

I looked up the price of a zone valve and it was $35 online. Asked the HVAC tech how much his part was - "$60." Ok, I thought maybe that markup covered his windshield time getting the part, installing it, etc. I expected to pay roughly $160-$200 for time and labor. 

Nope. 

The bill ended up being $390. (I actually think it was a few hundred higher, but we'll use the number for story's sake). 

I ended up getting billed for you guessed it - 3 hours total. 

Granted, in my town  you can get anywhere in under 30 minutes. You can go to the next town over in 30 minutes. Our HVAC supply house is 10 minutes from my house. I know because I've shopped there quite a bit. The other plumbing supply company in town is only another minute down the road for there. 

When I complained about paying for all the windshield time I was told the company (I had actually already elevated my complaint to a manger) - had documented all of his times: "he arrived at 10:30AM, diagnosed, left at 11:15AM to the parts store, returned to your house at 12:30PM, and left again at 1:15PM. "

I replied "so total service time was 2.45 hours, I assume you round up?" "Correct." "Ok, and I was told the part was $60?" "That's our cost for the part, your cost was $90 which included installation. Installation is extra as we could be in a house for hours just doing diagnostics." "Ok."

"It took the tech an 1hr 15 mins to drive 10 minutes to the part store on Butler and return with the part?" "Well he had to verify they had the part in stock, he might have hit traffic or the parts store was busy." "1 hour and 15 minutes to drive 4 miles? You sure he didn't take lunch along the way?" "We would not charge you for our employees lunch sir, if you don't want to pay this bill we can take you to collections and blacklist you from our services in the future." - Fine, you win. 

I asked one final question that made me resolve to use big-name-company skilled trades a lot less in the future, I asked: "If I would've supplied you with the valve to fix the system, would you have installed it?" "Only if its from our approved suppliers." "What if I got it from the same supply house and gave you a receipt?" "We'd charge you more for installation, per our policy of installing customer supplied parts. You'd also pay more for the part because we get trade pricing. If the part is defective, you'll get charge for removal and re-installation, where as if we get it ourselves, you don't get charged for that." "Would I get charged for more windshield time if the part was defective?" "Sir I don't know, I'm just telling you our policies. You can pay bill or not." 

Look, I get it, windshield time is expensive, but it's interactions like these that make customers paranoid and extremely demanding of up-front estimates, scoping, accurate quotes, etc. That makes it harder for the smaller guys to compete. I've heard a lot of horror stories of handymen and independent tradesmen losing days or work and income because they didn't bill every possible detail or wanted to be "fair" in their pricing. 

It as though commercial construction practices which are fine and good, have been applied to residential service trades. Which is great in some ways, but it also applies a ton of overhead and rigidity to billing that is often unaffordable to the consumer. 


 

I finally connected with someone with whom I worked many moons ago.  The company he's working for now sounds like a really decent place and they've got a number of positions open that would be a good fit for me.  He's got one of the hiring managers calling me today or tomorrow and another one having lunch with me later this week. 

This game is definitely about having and using contacts...

In reply to wae :

Totally agree. My wife has changed jobs more than myself over the years and each time it's through another person on the inside. Not from a job listing. It's been the same for myself other than my current job. Luck and timing played a hand in that.