Goodnight Baltimore!

mndsm wrote: I've got some very deep interest in a lot of the culture (music and food especially)

Good lord the FOOD....

There's a place in Tacoma called Southern Kitchen that my wife and I stop at every time we're in town.

I could eat there every day and die a happy man (probably a lot sooner than expected).

Apparently this Canuck likes chicken and waffles with collard greens. Who knew?

yupididit wrote: I must be Django, exceptional nigga. But, nah. The way I am is definitely the norm for almost every black male I know and any male of any color I've come across. The problem is people perceiving me as exceptional or not the normal black guy. Apparently, race doesn't dictate anything but how you're treated. Hell even in the military I see some racism. I remember my coworker who is Greek and married to a black guy used to get complaints about her husband on base housing. A guy down the street from her used to start E36 M3 with her husband. Calling him nigger on a few occasions but mostly calling security forces making complaints for any reason he could find. Finally, her husband said something back and cops were called because of the argument. Her husband was actually a pretty shy and timid guy but he happen to wear "urban" clothing. Anyway, the cops didn't find anything worth reporting. But, our Chief was tired of hearing about it. He called her into his office and talked to her about it. She thought he was going to be on her side but he wasn't. The conversation ended with, "have you tried to tell your husband to try not to be so black?". From there she walked out without saying a word and came back to her desk crying her eyes out. Pretty E36 M3ty. Anyway, I have stories upon stories of the special fun times being a black guy! My wife who is half asian and half spainard thinks it's the most interesting thing in the world. Even she gets very interesting questions from her white girlfriends about being married to a black guy.

When they do things like have cultural sensitivity training, only for white people... They aren't teaching about dudes like you. Wife went to one of those- such things exist.

I have a hard time believing anyone saying they were pulled over for no reason, skin color of any sort be damned.

Not saying it doesn't happen. But I take anyone who says that with a large grain of salt because as said elsewhere, people are people, and in general, people are lying sacks of crap

HiTempguy wrote: I have a hard time believing anyone saying they were pulled over for no reason, skin color of any sort be damned. Not saying it doesn't happen. But I take anyone who says that with a large grain of salt because as said elsewhere, people are people, and in general, people are lying sacks of crap

for no reason.. no, the police always need a reason.. any reason.. but when it comes to minorities, things that they would let slide with a white dude, become reasons to pull. It is a sad state of affairs, but it is true

"What's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW? The porcupine has the pricks on the outside. Hahaha!"

These are funny because there's a nugget of truth, but we're all well aware that the actual percentage of BMW drivers who are shiny happy people is pretty slim. The vast majority are just normal people driving around in their cars. But the shiny happy people are more public and it's easy to notice in their BMWs. For every BMW who cuts you off because his blue-tooth conversation is more important, 2 will let you merge in if you put your blinker on, and 20 will cross your path without you noticing them.

I'd wager that the percentage of black folks who are proud of being strait-up-thug is actually a lot slimmer than the percentage of BMW drivers who are self-entitled shiny happy people. Most are just people with darker skin, broader noses, and woolier hair. The average black person is just a person the same way that the average BMW driver is just a person.

And saying that people are thug and more likely to be violent because the music they listen to glorifies it, aught to listen to the sort of metal that's really popular here.

You don't worry that a guy is going to fly off the handle and start stabbing people because he's wearing a Slayer shirt and ripped jeans.

Sure, there are people who are drug dealing gang bangers who listen to hip hop. There are people who are skin head neo-Nazis who listen to metal. That doesn't make either of those groups representative of the whole.

you do bring up a point thought there, Baron. People -do- judge by how you look.. especially if you dress in a stereotypical away. One of my friends shaves his head.. not because he likes the look, but because he started going bald in HS and by college had been reduced to a "monk fringe". He has always been very fit.. so first thing people think of when they see him.. "Skin head"

Could not be further from the truth

This is an exchange I had on another forum

Some guy name Phil. said: I'm just trying to figure out how blacks ended up being so brutally mistreated. It's not like there's just one minority in the US. There's several, and none of the other races suffer social injustices at the rate blacks do. Hell, no race has been persecuted to anywhere near the extreme Jews have. It's not even close. Yet they berkeleying own the world. You know how us evil white people are. We don't like anyone that's not white. So why just blacks? Why not other races?

Phil.... People from tribes in Africa were tossed on a boat.. Forced there. Many of them not speaking, or even understanding English at the time. These people were then forced to work. Separated from family ect. Horrible stuff. Then all the sudden they are "free", but not equal.

I disagree with John and MP on how we should go about our lives concerning this, and I also have different views than they do on how most of these issues need to be handled, as I don't think it is JUST white folks who need to make a cultural shift now... But at the same time YOUR comments Phil even challenge my tolerance for what is acceptable in rebuking the type of negative behaviors we ALL see so prevalent in OUR society.

........................

That being said... if you are strutting around listening to gansta rap with your pants around your knees.. and the nice old ladies are giving you the stink eye...

Sorry.. it isn't pushing my sympathy buttons..

In reply to Datsun1500:

In reply to Boost_Crazy: If you read an earlier post in this thread, you will see I'm an older white guy., and I'm far from thin skinned. I've been pulled over enough and never been asked "is this your car?" I've had the police call me ask if one of my guys worked for me, and did he have permission to drive the company car? Twice. In the middle of the day, while he was working. I've had white employees get stopped in the same car, cops never blinked at the registration. When a guy says he has been pulled over for no reason other than being black, assuming "he must have been doing something" doesn't help anything. Like examples here saying "the normal black guy isn't one that..." are wrong. Everyone I know pays their bills, raises their kids, watches their kids play sports, etc. just like me. White, Black, Asian, Indian, Middle Eastern, etc. they're all just regular, everyday people.

My questions to yupididit were in response to his statement that he had 90+ unfavorable interactions with the police. That's a lot of interactions with the police, favorable or otherwise. Before I'm ready to jump on the "cops are racist" bandwagon, I figured it would be prudent to ask if there could be any contributing circumstances. To be honest, I would have felt much better if he had said "Well, I do have a 'Berkeley the Police' bumper sticker." He didn't, and I learned that there may be more to it than I thought. If people like you are offended simply by the questions, than you aren't solving the problem. And because of that, the examples with your employees are meaningless. Because you are too afraid to ask the questions. You ask your employee why he gets pulled over, and he tells you for driving while black. And that's the end of it for you. It very well may be true, but you'll never know.

In reply to Boost_Crazy:

I grew up very poor and in the ghetto. I'd have interactions with police just from waiting at the bus stop on my way to school or the store as a teen.

HiTempguy wrote: I have a hard time believing anyone saying they were pulled over for no reason, skin color of any sort be damned.

I've seen it enough times to believe it. When I was taking the train to work I would come home the same time as a coworker. We would get off the train about 2am, walk to our cars and leave the station. Both of us drive plain mid size sedans with all the lights working and tags up to date. He would get stopped almost monthly leaving the station. I never did. I've seen drivers get off their buses at the end of their tour, put on a coat, and get questioned by the police. I can see where it would get old.

I'm sure it's area related. I don't know that it happens a ton in MN, to be honest. I've been stopped on suspicion plenty of times, and I'm as white as the driven snow. Granted my beard is longer than many womens hair and my hair is longer than the rest- and I drive a loud, low import when I'm not driving a loud, low import- so I'm probably asking for it... I mean I know damn well I look like trouble. I do plenty to invite it upon myself too.... so there is that. But most of the time my interactions are "You know why I stopped you" "here's a warning" and that's it. I know a signigicant portion of the population likes to take the berkeley the police attitude to a whole new level and wonder why they get waylaid. Right or not- the cops's the one outside my car with a gun.

In reply to Datsun1500:

I am not offended by the question at all, Im offended by the assumption that he must have done something wrong, other than being black. As others here have posted, it happens, we see it (even as white guys). I don't assume he "must have done something wrong" and ask if he's sure it's because he's black. I know it's because he's black, just as he does. I'm not the only white guy posting that I see it all of the time. My black friends get stopped for stuff my white friends do, and no one looks at the white guy twice. No one stops a white jogger and asks if he lives in the area, jog while black? Can I see ID please? As posted earlier, I've been pulled over because my tint is too dark. I've been told "I wasn't expecting a white guy" and waved on. Never asked for my license. If I was black, I'm 100% sure the car would be searched, and I'd get a ticket to remove the tint.

So you are offended because you assumed that I assumed? Well, your assumption offends me.

I honestly did not realize that there was still that widespread of a problem. In my area, Northern California, the police have been under the microscope for years. Not that it doesn't happen here- but it seems that for every legit complaint there are many more false complaints. The was a recent lawsuit against a local law enforcement agency, accusing them of too much police presence in a high minority area of the city. The lawsuit was dropped. It was determined that the police were in the community a lot because- the residents called them a lot. Does that mean that people were never stopped because of the color of their skin? It sure doesn't, but the false accusations can drown out the real ones.

There's also the one where sadly, minorities tend to be in places where crimes are more committed. Let's face it, not a whole lot of drug deals going on on the corners of Beverly Hills (they have delivery service for that E36 M3 out there). Crime begets crime and all that.

Am I the only guy who -likes- to see the police in his neighbourhood?

I lived in a E36 M3ty, high-crime area. I called the cops a lot, I saw a ton of drug deals go down in front of my house, I took pictures of the license plates.

I saw the cops a lot because we called the cops a lot. My neighbourhood sucked.

We moved to a new neighbourhood. Much, much nicer than the old one. I own my house and you can be damn sure I call the cops if there's something illegal going on.

I like seeing the police in my neighbourhood instead of parked in front of the local coffee shop.

I like seeing what my taxes pay for.

As a side note, how we are acting within this thread should be a model for others. That we can have a very volatile subject discussed with respect to a wide variety of people, is a step in the right direction. I'm proud of all of you. This thread could have gone sour so quickly. It hasn't. Thank you.

LOLzers.

In reply to Datsun1500:

Baby steps...

Just don't ask if the brotha was in a hatchback....

In reply to Datsun1500:

Driving while black is a very real thing. The trouble is Police officers who pull over Black guys, especially young black guys aren't doing most of the time (anymore) because of racism, but instead because they are 'rewarded' more often than not with uncovering whatever criminal offenses far more often than they would if they were randomly stopping white guys.

They studied this pretty carefully in my county's Policing force. They found officers did 'randomly' stop black guys more often, but they also found the 'worst' offenders were the black and minority officers. In fact most white guys were far BETTER than the black officers about it. Then again around here most of the Black officers work in the nicer parts of town. They like the job, but don't want to be in the hood all the damn time. On the other side there is far larger percentage of White officers who WANT to work in the rougher parts of town because they see their job as a real opportunity to help people.

I just don't see going after police officers, or pressuring police forces as the best solution to this particular problem. If they weren't finding trouble, bad attitudes, and other nonsense, they would find something else to do.

Yup mentioned on the last page that he did grow up in the 'ghetto'. He must then certainly know that MOST of his peers haven't made their life into what he enjoys. I suspect his move out of the ghetto was accompanied with a near complete change in friends. People that lift him up instead of holding each other down.

I am a nut.. a bit rude and insensitive sometimes... So not to break from who I am I just think if you want to stop profiling of this sort the best way is to make damn certain there is little to no reason for LEO's to be profiling.. Right now this ISN'T the case.

Picking on the Cops Just isn't a solution.

(of which I have had my own problems in my youth... noting that I was harassed plently of times when i wasn't doing anything wrong at that very moment )

In reply to Datsun1500:

I'm a 45 year old, pretty conservative white guy. My Daughters middle school is $28k a year. I have built up businesses that have made me a very good living. I'm pretty far removed from the people rioting in Baltimore last week, both socially, and financially. The fact that I'm one of the ones saying it's an issue, should reinforce just how much of a problem it is here. It might not be an issue where a lot of you guys are, but it is an issue here.

I was born in Baltimore. Thankfully, my family left when I was very young. My uncles missed almost 50% of the school days in middle and high school. They were scared to go. That was 40 years ago, it doesn't sound like it has got much better.

I guess Seattle should be laying off the Starbucks?

Appleseed wrote: As a side note, how we are acting within this thread should be a model for others. That we can have a very volatile subject discussed with respect to a wide variety of people, is a step in the right direction. I'm proud of all of you. This thread could have gone sour so quickly. It hasn't. Thank you.

I've been noticing that. This seems to have stayed surprisingly civil (become more civil?).

It's especially heartening to see people able to say things that are not progressive and that many people (myself included) disagree strongly with, and correct them without saying their a bad person or racist or anything like that.

This thread is not an echo chamber. Most threads I've seen on this subject (on both sides) become echo chambers or "you're wrong and a bad person" arguments.

ronholm wrote: I just don't see going after police officers, or pressuring police forces as the best solution to this particular problem. If they weren't finding trouble, bad attitudes, and other nonsense, they would find something else to do.

I think a lot of people point their fingers at the police officers as the racist bad guys. I think there is the occasional bad apple, but that they're pretty rare. Most police officers are just doing their best faith effort to execute the law as they are directed to.

I see a major issue with policies and practices that are racist, although not necessarily intentionally so. Things like, the war on drugs and cracking down hard on "quality of life" crimes. The police don't necessarily want to do these things, but they are required to. It ends up leading to frustrating run ins between police and poor, urban, black men that leave both parties unhappy with the other. As far as both are concerned, they aren't doing anything that bad, but they have to have this E36 M3ty, tense interaction where neither one knows if they're going to be dealing with one of the rare bad apples who's going to pull out a gun and shoot them.

Similarly rewarding cops for making minor busts during random stops. Reward cops for how many arrests they can make, and they'll end up finding ways to make more arrests. The cops aren't making those policies, just doing what the system has set up for them to do.

We need to be looking at the leadership and policy makers and changing what policies they set that end up leading to all the negative interactions we're seeing.

I am going to say that most police forces are not that bad.. but Baltimore is the exception. It has paid out millions in the past year in settlements for excessive force.. They have run rampant for too long and this was the straw that broke the camel's back.