Grassroots Strength Training - Bodybuilding, Power Lifting, Etc.

In reply to The_Jed :

Also underscores how badly I need to begin calorie counting and focusing on diet. I'll post body pics and body fat % soon, I've never focused on them which is why I never made good gains and it's high time I take it seriously. I eat well and pretty damn healthy, but I never took in enough.

Also the Lu Raises- I feel fine after doing them. I basically continued the lateral raise but kept my wrists locked, so I lifted my arm similar to how you'd pour a pitcher. I feel like I worked my shoulders in a new way but it's not a pain or a concerning feeling.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Yeah, it definitely hits a different area of the shoulder. For me, it hits the front portion of the lateral head of my delts. Oddly specific but, that's where it burns when I do them.


Today when I ran through the program, after I finished the KB Rite of Passage, I noticed all of the squat racks were taken so I did my leg press pyramid and then 10-1 drop set. I really tried to push the pace and get through the drop set as quickly as possible. I wound up huffing and puffing and getting a side stitch like I had been running. That's a first for me. LOL 

The_Jed said:

  I just went through day 1 of that program I cobbled together using Beer Baron's template and yeah, it's a good one! It's much more skewed toward performance rather than hypertrophy...

Glad my input helped!

I'm also very focused on performance over hypertrophy. I have very multi-purpose physical goals rather than a single focus. I want to be able to be able to pick up heavy things safely, move my body around well, enough flexibility to resist injury, and have general endurance to run medium-long distances. And I only have so much time and energy in a week. So I lean towards efficient programs with a lot of compromises, but finding the sweet spot of "20% of the energy for 80% of the gains."

In Reply to Beer Baron :

I have multi-purpose goals too, so I think i'll edit this plan a little bit and focus too on the performance and have the hypertrophy second- it's already July so there's no real swimsuit body to get right away, and the results will show anyway lol. What do ya'll think of replacing the 5x5 Squats for a lighter, higher rep 3x8? 

In reply to The_Jed :

I've never done the KB rite of passage, so as I get more used to this program ya'll made I'll steadily work it in. I noticed with the Lu Raises that I feel use, but also stronger generally, throughout my shoulder and rotator cuff. I've purposefully been attentive to it thanks to seeing what happens when someone isn't, so anything that keeps strengthening it and keeping it healthy is a win in my book.

GIRTHQUAKE said:

In Reply to Beer Baron :

I have multi-purpose goals too, so I think i'll edit this plan a little bit and focus too on the performance and have the hypertrophy second- it's already July so there's no real swimsuit body to get right away, and the results will show anyway lol. What do ya'll think of replacing the 5x5 Squats for a lighter, higher rep 3x8? 

Is your goal to do everything you can to get the most muscle gains you can reasonably attain? Or is your goal just to get into good shape, using your time and energy efficiently?

Sounds like the latter. If so, 3 sets is good

For rep numbers - it depends on your goals and where you are in your training.

5 reps is kind of an ideal number for making newbie gains. If you're new to lifting - just do the Starting Strength program with 3x5's. If you're passed that, I'd do two days with different loads based on your goals.

If you want more power (which is what I go for) - heavy day of 3x[3-4] and a light day of 3x8. Or heavy day with a heavy single/double, and then drop sets of 4-5.

If you want more hypertrophy, heavy day of 3x[6-8] and light day of 3x[10-15].

As far as physiques and such... I like being a bit more dad-bod than showy muscles. My ideal physique is like that of a pro fighter or a rugby fullback. To me it's the physique equivalent of a Sleeper sedan. All go, minimal show.

RE:  Efficiency.  Curious what you guys think of Mike Mentzer's training methods.

The way I understand them is:  1 set until failure, but then keep going with negative reps, cheater reps, etc.  Absolutely destroy the muscles.  Move on to the next exercise.  Then rest like 3-4 days before working out again.

Supposedly he only worked out 2 hours a week when he was competing. 

In reply to ProDarwin :

I'm not super familiar but doing some Google to get a rundown. What I'm seeing looks a bit different from what you describe.

Here's a summary from an article:

• Go to full-rep failure in the six- to nine-rep range. Try to grow increasingly stronger in this range.
• Always maintain proper form.
• Push sets past failure with forced reps and negatives.
• Rest-pause is another excellent method of transcending failure.
• Divide your body parts into two workouts and allow 48 hours between workouts. For example, do workout A on Monday, B on Wednesday, A on Friday, B on Sunday (or Monday, if you prefer to take weekends off).

I'm seeing a lot of other things saying how he "only" worked out 3 times per week with 4 days of rest. This all seems very much in line with lots of other training principles and other variations on a theme.

The only notable caveat is, the guy was certainly taking steroids and other PED's. As I understand, one of the biggest things those do is allow you to recover much faster. So if you are all natural and work out to the same level of exertion as him - "absolutely destroy muscles" - it will take you longer to recover.

He's not resting for 3-4 days between workouts, he's resting 4-5 days between working the SAME MUSCLE GROUPS. He's only resting 2-3 days between workouts.

That's a variation on the sort of model that Starting Strength and lots of other programs use. You have an A-group of exercises and a B-group and you alternate between them.

He's also going to "technical failure" not "absolute failure". Pretty big difference.

Doing lots of negatives makes sense. Dr. Mike talks a lot about how the literature seems to indicate eccentric movements being the biggest contributor to hypertrophy. That's what that's doing.

I don't believe 2 hours/week, but I can absolutely believe 2 hours per session.

I'd say modeling an exercise after what he would have done makes good sense. I'd just dial back the volume a bit and not *completely* destroy your muscles, unless you're also using PED's to allow that kind of recovery.

Beer Baron said:

The_Jed said:

  I just went through day 1 of that program I cobbled together using Beer Baron's template and yeah, it's a good one! It's much more skewed toward performance rather than hypertrophy...

Glad my input helped!

I'm also very focused on performance over hypertrophy. I have very multi-purpose physical goals rather than a single focus. I want to be able to be able to pick up heavy things safely, move my body around well, enough flexibility to resist injury, and have general endurance to run medium-long distances. And I only have so much time and energy in a week. So I lean towards efficient programs with a lot of compromises, but finding the sweet spot of "20% of the energy for 80% of the gains."

Hopefully that didn't come across as a criticism of the muscle group order/template you laid out, that sort of program is right up my alley too and I definitely liked it. I want to be able to run, climb, box, and grapple, all at a small-ish size and low-ish weight. That sort of training is how I got to the best physique of my life back in '18, that's definitely a nice byproduct of "functional" performance-oriented training.

I got some decent cardio in yesterday chasing cones at the Autocross. A lot of the competitors canceled due to the weather so the course workers were spread pretty thin and we each had to cover a huge area. 


The ol' whingey hoof wasn't a fan of me sprinting around.

Beer Baron said:

I don't believe 2 hours/week, but I can absolutely believe 2 hours per session.

I read somewhere that he used meth as a pre-workout, not sure if it's true but, I got a giggle out of it.

lol

The_Jed said:

Hopefully that didn't come across as a criticism of the muscle group order/template you laid out, that sort of program is right up my alley too and I definitely liked it. I want to be able to run, climb, box, and grapple, all at a small-ish size and low-ish weight. That sort of training is how I got to the best physique of my life back in '18, that's definitely a nice byproduct of "functional" performance-oriented training.

Nah. I took it as critique, but not criticism. Identifying what sorts of objectives the program aligns with, and what it doesn't. I'm glad that it aligns with the kind of objectives you're working towards.

The_Jed said:

I read somewhere that he used meth as a pre-workout, not sure if it's true but, I got a giggle out of it.

Mike considered methamphetamines to be performance enhancers, so he used them and got addicted to them and they ultimately helped kill him. He was addicted for more than a decade, I believe. He also used massive amounts of steroids, like most of the golden age bodybuilders (they try to claim that they were natural, or only used steroids for cutting, or only did tiny amounts and just worked hard. It's a load of crap, they juiced almost as much as modern ones). His high intensity techniques were pretty interesting and very different than others were using, and I think we can learn from them, but they were flawed. That idea has been taken and shaped in more modern times, though. Dorian Yates further improved upon Mike's techniques and won the Mr. Olympia 6 times and was insanely strong. There's an excellent training method known as (don't laugh) doggcrapp. That was the guy's username when he came up with it, and the name stuck. I think he changed it to "DC Hardcore" or something, but it's pretty solid. I've used it in the past and gained a lot of strength doing it, it focuses on rest/pause sets.

I use some high intensity methods, like going beyond failure, strip sets, etc, pretty often. When I do side laterals for my delts, I start with 30lb dumbbells and go until I can do a strict rep, then go down to 25s, 20s, all the way until I'm lifting the 5lb dumbbells and barely getting two reps. I think it's a pretty effective method when done properly and not overdone.

Just finished my Wannabe Boxer workout:

rode my bike a couple of miles to the gym

Superset (3 rounds):

4-way neck machine (20 reps in each direction), wrist roller thingy (held straight out rolling backward from the floor to my hands then rolled forward from the floor), hanging leg raises (20 reps)

Then I went into the room with the heavy bags and did:

Turkish Getup: alternating sides for one minute, not sure how many I did... 15? 20?

double end bag for one 60-second round

heavy bags for eight 60-second rounds

double end bag again for one 60-second round

rode the bike back home

It felt good to be hitting the bags again.

They have a heavy bag at my gym, I don't think anyone ever uses it. There's a set of worn gloves lying atop it with a layer of dust. Every once in a while I go and punch it a few times but I don't really know what I'm doing haha. I keep telling myself I'll join a boxing gym or take boxing lessons one day but I never do.

Tried something different today. No flat bench since my left shoulder has been unhappy with that lately. Instead, I warmed up and started doing dips. Now, I haven't done dips in a long time so perhaps that's why they sucked, but they just didn't feel right. I don't think my shoulder liked that very much either. Or, my front delt area, more specifically. Did some warmup sets, did a few sets with a 45lb plate hanging from my waist, called it quits halfway through set three. It just felt bad. 

Went to incline dumbbell press, did some warmup sets, a good heavy set, then a really heavy set, dropped the dumbbells and grabbed lighter ones, etc. Felt pretty good. My upper chest has really been responding decently since I started doing more incline lately. It still feels weak, though.

Then I did some cable crossovers, which I rarely do as I see them as somewhat useless. But, peolpe were using the other equipment, and they're easy on the joints and I got a good pump from them. So I guess it wasn't wasted. Finished it with a drop set. Still don't really like that exercise.

Went to do some triceps pushdowns and started at a heavy weight, did a set and it was too light. So I went up 10 lbs and repeated. Then went up 10 lbs and repeated. Wound up doing 6 sets, the last one being a typical drop set/burnout. Had a good pump in my triceps for quite some time after that. My triceps are getting really, really strong. I need to ensure I'm increasing reps, not weight, to keep my joints happy. Finished the workout with some seated calf raises and a short bit of cardio.

There's a guy in my gym that comes every morning and is very dedicated. I think he's getting consumed by that desire to lift ever heavier—he does bodybuilding-style workouts, but he keeps using heavier and heavier weight and lower reps. He's doing sets of 2-3 reps, then a bunch of partials after, until he can't even move the weight. He's doing the right lifts, but nowhere near enough reps to build either strength or size.

In short, he's basically wasting his time. He looks the exact same as he did when I started going to this gym around a year ago, and he's probably going to hurt himself if he keeps it up.

Tomorrow is back/biceps, which I think is my favorite day. 

Oh, I was checking my calves in the mirror yesterday, and I really am happy with the progress I've made. Before working out I had very, very skinny calves. Just laughably skinny, no shape or size whatsoever. I'd say they're about up to "normal" size now, a huge improvement, and they have a pretty good shape to them. I just gotta keep it up and one day I might laugh in the face of my calf genetics.

infinitenexus said:

There's a guy in my gym that comes every morning and is very dedicated. I think he's getting consumed by that desire to lift ever heavier—he does bodybuilding-style workouts, but he keeps using heavier and heavier weight and lower reps. He's doing sets of 2-3 reps, then a bunch of partials after, until he can't even move the weight. He's doing the right lifts, but nowhere near enough reps to build either strength or size.

Has anyone tried talking to him or steering him towards good sources of advice? I enjoy doing heavy 2-3 rep sets... but no more than once per week, and then you need 2+ days to recover. Trying to do that every day you won't have the recovery needed to progress. It's also only *part* of a training program.

Added landmine RDL's to my program last week and they are my new favorite RDL variation.

I can keep my legs strait and get tons of range of motion without any of the potential low back weirdness like I'm afraid the bar is getting away from me or that I'm adding too much curve or anything. Just able to take my hips back and forwards. Best hamstring pump I've ever gotten. Far better than hamstring curls.

Also doing landmine reverse lunges. Using lifting straps to hold the bar really helped that.

I'm pleased to really be getting some mileage out of the landmine attachment on our rack.

In reply to Beer Baron :

I've often found that in gyms, women are very open to guidance and advice, but men often seem to think they already know what's right. They'll smile and nod and say "hey, thanks man" and then go right back to doing things wrong. I might talk with another regular and see if we can both give him a playful sort of "come on buddy, get some reps so you'll get bigger!" kind of angle, but in general if it's a guy I usually just let them be. There's another guy that comes in from time to time and just does random lifts, no warmup, sets of 1-2. Deadlifts, DB bench press, squats, he just loads the bar up and strains through a rep, maybe getting a second one. He hasn't made any progress in months and if you look at him you can't even tell he lifts. Super low rep sets like that don't build any strength or size and put your joints/tendons at a much higher risk of injury, I know I've whined about that plenty of times in this thread, but it's true. There's a good reason pros avoid super low sets unless they're training for a competition and getting close to said competition.

In reply to Beer Baron :

I miss doing stiff leg deadlifts for hams. With my screwed up back I'm left only able to do leg curls and it's really just not the same. I might try something like.... Hamstring curls to failure, strip the weight do a few more reps to failure, then jump over and do a stiff leg deadlift with something low like 60-70 pounds and a super deep range of motion, again to failure. Actually, I think I'll try that next leg day. Thanks for mentioning the deads.

I tried myo reps today, and hated it in a good way. Started with uhhhh, straight arm lat lever downs? Not sure what to call them. Did a heavy set of 15 reps to total failure, rested about 7-8 seconds, did another 3-5 reps to failure, rested, reps to failure, etc, about 5 times. Really effective way to work the muscle while taking less time.

In reply to infinitenexus :

I think you'd like Landmine RDL's then. I loaded up 105 on the end of the bar and did sets of 10 (not to failure). I use a neutral grip pulley attachment for my grip with a hand towel folded under it to not mess up the bar.

I know I like to program much higher weights and lower reps than you do, those guys you are describing make me shudder. Lifting at all without warming up is crazy. Trying to go for singles or doubles without taking the time to get everything fully warmed up and all the joints greased is insane.

Beer Baron, I'll probably work towards more hypertrophy than strength for now. Might as well look good eh?

Did deadlifts EMOM for 205 yesterday and I'll work it up to 215 for 60% my working sets next week. Before bed I noticed one side of my back felt tight when lying down, but I think it was more because I had a pretty active day with a lot of bending over- I'm also doing the EMOMs with no belt so I'm not reliant on it.

Today my forearms, biceps, and lats feel thicker just sitting here typing. I already feel a little stronger and more pumped on this regimine from what I was doing prior, I wonder how badly I was overworking myself now.

I've too really liked doing landmines! 

GIRTHQUAKE said:

Beer Baron, I'll probably work towards more hypertrophy than strength for now. Might as well look good eh?

It's cycles. You're starting a new cycle and are right to focus on hypertophy first.

I like to start a cycle of 6-8 weeks, first with lower weight and more reps. Keep increasing weight and dropping reps as necessary. Eventually building to a 1rm to test myself like I'm in an imaginary competition (but without the pressure of *actually* competing against anybody to make me liable to overdo it).

Then drop back down to a bit more than I started the previous cycle with and do it all over again.

In reply to Beer Baron :

I'm trying to picture how you do the Landmine RDLs... you mentioned using the neutral-grip pulldown handle so, are you setting it up like a T-bar row? 

I've been doing single-leg Landmine RDLs by standing perpendicular to the bar, at the very end furthest from the pivot point, and grasping the sleeve that the weights slide over with my foot directly under my hand. 

I love Landmine stuff too! I use it mostly for unilateral exercises.  

The_Jed said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

I'm trying to picture how you do the Landmine RDLs... you mentioned using the neutral-grip pulldown handle so, are you setting up like a T-bar row?

Yes. Apparently you can do them holding the end of the sleeve, or the bar just below the sleeve. I do them bar between legs, holding just below the sleeve.