gun control rant thread

N Sperlo wrote: Israel hasn't had a major school shooting in decades.

As long as teachers are willing to go through complete military training and the citizens are willing to pay them accordingly. Otherwise I prefer leaving the teaching to teachers and security to military/police.

(Since I've been typing slowly, I'm referring here to armed guards/police officers on site; not as much a reply about armed teachers, which has a different set of concerns)

I'd be concerned about the trade-off between probably preventing an incredibly rare (if incredibly terrible) occurrence, and definitely reminding the kids every day that the world is scary enough that a grade school needs armed guards.

I'm not a child psychologist. It's just what occurs to me. Not sure why, but it just puts me in mind of what I think my folks tried to impart to me about people as I grew up. They told about some terrible things that people did, but it was also important to know that mostly, people are... people. Like yourself.

Clearly, as we heard about earlier in the thread, some folks feel that it would just provide a feeling of security and being watched over.

Probably, it would make different impressions on different kids. But if it were at every school, it would make some impression on everyone.

Just another thing to consider...

Cone_Junky wrote: As long as teachers are willing to go through complete military training and the citizens are willing to pay them accordingly. Otherwise I prefer leaving the teaching to teachers and security to military/police.

Completely different culture.......don't all isreali's have to join the "Defense Force" when they graduate high school?

yamaha wrote:

Cone_Junky wrote: As long as teachers are willing to go through complete military training and the citizens are willing to pay them accordingly. Otherwise I prefer leaving the teaching to teachers and security to military/police.

Completely different culture.......don't all isreali's have to join the "Defense Force" when they graduate high school?

Yes. This is why it would require our teachers to go through a complete military training to become even close to the same standards those teachers have. Being armed and being able to put down a threat is a huge gap. Just having a gun isn't enough.

In reply to yamaha:

Yeah, it's kinda apples-and-guavas... As pointed out earlier in the thread, the world has countries and localities with every combination of more-violence/less-violence and few-guns/many-guns...

As always, it's hard to find unbiased information, and I don't have time right this second to do a ton of research, but here's some info about Israel, schools, and guns. Apologies if it turns out to be a subpar source; it didn't immediately strike me as sounding insane.

In any case, once again a captioned jpg turns out probably not to have a complete or unbiased account of a situation

In reply to ransom:

I say this as an armed guard. Step one to law enforcement is presence. I'd rather see law enforcement than teachers armed.

In reply to N Sperlo:

I think I agree. My observations were about the armed guards at school idea on its own merit, not as compared to armed teachers.

With armed guards, my concern is about the unintended consequences of having the kids notice the presence every day. With teachers, my concern is about the unintended consequences of having non-professionals armed at school. And of course quietly-armed teachers don't pose the same deterrent if it's not widely known that they are armed.

I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate that these are my concerns, and not my ironclad conviction that these are the only concerns, or the correct weighting of concerns.

In reply to ransom:

Ok, as for the "quietly armed teachers don't pose the same deterrent if it's not widely known they are armed" aspect.... do you REALLY think that the news isn't going to go apeE36 M3 if it's allowed? I think Curiosity will know.

I do not like the idea of armed security on school property. I think it would be GOOD for children to know that A.) their teachers are there to help and protect in a time of need, and they're not a policeman/woman and 2.) that guns themselves are not evil and good people have/use them as well.

It would be nice to get some of the crazed panic "OMG HE HAS A GUN OMGWTFBBQ! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!" when people see a firearm on a legal person.

EDIT: I also think it would be nice in the respect that it shows they student that they are responsible for their own safety. Police cannot physically be everywhere at once. The only person that can ensure YOUR safety is YOU.

Bobzilla wrote: I do not like the idea of armed security on school property. I think it would be GOOD for children to know that A.) their teachers are there to help and protect in a time of need, and they're not a policeman/woman and 2.) that guns themselves are not evil and good people have/use them as well.

armed security in the form of police?

madmallard wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: I do not like the idea of armed security on school property. I think it would be GOOD for children to know that A.) their teachers are there to help and protect in a time of need, and they're not a policeman/woman and 2.) that guns themselves are not evil and good people have/use them as well.

armed security in the form of police?

I believe Bobzilla is suggesting armed civilians at school will take away the stigma of carrying guns and allow children to understand a weapon isn't evil.

I agree, but also think there should be armed officers.

I just want to be able to castrate people who call the cops with a "Man With Gun" call........last night was the first time in 3 years I've had that pleasure. The cops in my town are not trained worth a E36 M3 and don't know any laws......once again, they seemed pissed they couldn't do anything. My question though, in this town of 600 people, why all 3 officers came flying then why did it take the same officers during daylight 2 hours to respond to a reported rape of a 13yo......

Bobzilla wrote: EDIT: I also think it would be nice in the respect that it shows they student that they are responsible for their own safety. Police cannot physically be everywhere at once. The only person that can ensure YOUR safety is YOU.

It's a good point, and a bummer that this mostly only comes up in the gun control conversation.

Situational awareness, perception, reading social cues... These are things that kids will need much more often than any sort of weapon, and if used, should reduce the chances that one's personal situation degrades to the point that a weapon is needed. Not to mention avoiding so many smaller bad situations that were never going to escalate to deadly force, but could result in a punch in the nose or a stolen wallet.

In any case, I wouldn't want a ten-year-old's takeaway to be that you can be responsible for your own safety as long as you're armed, so hopefully that's a lesson which can be taught without regard to whether a gun is present.

NRA says we need to arm more people. ($ell more guns)

In other news- The auto industry says to decrease pedestrian deaths by vehicles we need to buy more cars.

Cone_Junky wrote: NRA says we need to arm more people. ($ell more guns) In other news- The auto industry says to decrease pedestrian deaths by vehicles we need to buy more cars.

That is what they say. They claim that the key to safety is to get rid of our old, "defective cars" and plunk down a big pile of cash on their latest offering with traction control/stability control, automatic braking, back up cameras, abs.....

EastCoastMojo wrote: I just finished the Correia post as well, very well put.

Agreed. Very well put, but as he noted himself, he's had a lot of practice.

If anyone hasn't read it yet, go back and do so. He goes into the whole "arming teachers" issue pretty well and quite rationally..

I am of the opinion there would be no need or even desire for any teacher to announce they are carrying. Just the thought any one of them could be carrying would be a reasonably effective deterrent.

JoeyM wrote:

Cone_Junky wrote: NRA says we need to arm more people. ($ell more guns) In other news- The auto industry says to decrease pedestrian deaths by vehicles we need to buy more cars.

That is what they say. They claim that the key to safety is to get rid of our old, "defective cars" and plunk down a big pile of cash on their latest offering with traction control/stability control, automatic braking, back up cameras, abs.....

I like my simple old skool cars; just like my simple old skool assault rifles.

Reading this thread off and on since its inception and can't believe it is at 18 pages with clear cut battle lines drawn with no advancement from either side, I have come to this conclusion:

The status quo, as it relates to the topic at hand, "works".

What isn't working is the fact that mental health is backburner or taboo, and is treated as such from the community serving them. Find a way to fix this is issue, period. Everything else is backwater fluff bullE36 M3.

With that, carry on internet warriors!!!

Ian F wrote:

EastCoastMojo wrote: I just finished the Correia post as well, very well put.

Agreed. Very well put, but as he noted himself, he's had a lot of practice. If anyone hasn't read it yet, go back and do so. He goes into the whole "arming teachers" issue pretty well and quite rationally.. I am of the opinion there would be no need or even desire for any teacher to announce they are carrying. Just the thought any one of them could be carrying would be a reasonably effective deterrent.

I would like teachers to carry if they are trained for specific situations. Similar to the way FAMs are trained specifically for airplanes. They shouldn't be known to be carrying, but the public should know they are carrying. Maybe specific situations can call to carry open. There should be an armed officer at the school in uniform. They should make their presence known throughout the school, not having a set schedule making rounds.

Ranger50 wrote: What isn't working is the fact that mental health is backburner or taboo, and is treated as such from the community serving them. Find a way to fix this is issue, period. Everything else is backwater fluff bullE36 M3.

Absolutely true. Mental health should in no way be a taboo subject. The problem is, people will be looked upon as different for having any problem. It is a health issue and therefore private unless the individual or their guardian releases the information. You can't force them to. I'm going to discuss this with a friend who is a psychologist who works with kids that have these problems. That will give me more insight.

ransom wrote: In any case, I wouldn't want a ten-year-old's takeaway to be that you can be responsible for your own safety as long as you're armed, so hopefully that's a lesson which can be taught without regard to whether a gun is present.

Sadly, that is something the PARENT should be teaching their children, not the schools. Right now, my wife is tasked with teaching morals, right/wrong, social behavior and potty training to K-4th graders. NONE of that should be the responsibility of the school. Those are all things that need to be taught at home, by the parents. Parents need to, well, be PARENTS. You were the one that decided to have a child, now YOU take care of the goddamn thing.

N Sperlo wrote: Absolutely true. Mental health should in no way be a taboo subject. The problem is, people will be looked upon as different for having any problem. It is a health issue and therefore private unless the individual or their guardian releases the information. You can't force them to. I'm going to discuss this with a friend who is a psychologist who works with kids that have these problems. That will give me more insight.

Why would it be any different? Cruising the local mart, I can see clearly if you have HBP, cholesterol problems, and general overall health problems without even asking one question.

The problem with mental health is compliance. If they quit, they quit. There isn't a backup to gain compliance. Typically, it is either side effects of medications or wanting to be "normal like everyone" else that rewards someone into noncompliance. Noncompliance leads to crazy paths of aftermath from which there will be no healing. This noncompliance needs to be addressed to fix most mental health problems, IMO. And most of the noncompliance is dealt like someone talking to a little child, "Johnny, you know that not taking your medicine is bad for you..." and similar, but this is a much too soft approach to coax them back into compliance for another 3mo to about a year, again my opinion. The resources to maintain compliance don't exist. It is all run as if everyone is a new patient, when they are not.

In reply to Bobzilla:

It definitely is the responsibility of the parents. Unfortunately when they don't, it affects all of us, which is why your wife has to do it for them.

Similarly, some gun owners are not taking proper responsibility for their guns. Leaving them unattended, unlocked, or not beating the seriousness of firearms into their children. Which is why the public is asking the gov't to do it for them.

Not sure how to do that. I think that most of us agree that banning anything won't do a damn thing for that. More hoops, less loopholes, and more background checks for owners is a start. I think penalties for illegal possession and more liability for those who let their guns get into others hands is a decent start.

YES, And because she has to be a mother, a teacher and a potty trainer to EVERYONE ELSE'S CHILDREN we decided to not have any. Why should we add more? I mean, hell, we're feeding, clothing and now doing all the parenting for them.

So once again, we're back to that personal responsibility thing again. Your child, your responsibility. Can't take care of one? Don't have it.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

SVreX wrote: I don't think there are very many teachers who would make good militia.

Really, that is just nonsense. Several of my teachers were veterans from WWII and Vietnam. I bet if I took a survey at my son's school - one of the hundred or so teachers or administration staff wore the uniform. The idea that teachers are something other than representative of the general population is odd.

1 of 100 is ridiculously low odds.

Thanks you for making my point.

yamaha wrote: also remember, just the remote possibility of armed resistance in a school will prevent berkeleytards from going there to massacre people in the first place. I still CC in theatres.......

How?

He never intended to leave. I can't imagine why it should matter to him.