Hip-hop: Born 50 years ago at a Bronx back-to-school party

In reply to NY Nick :

These are both examples of the talent I was talking about that does exist. They are both story tellers with DEEP meaning hidden in their songs. Em is a perfect example. His raps/stories/songs can be catchy at the first instant you hear it. Then you really listen to it and the emotion, story, and intelligence is staggering. Slick Rick was always one that I listened to then and now.
There are many examples of the other side, but I won't name specifics because we all have our own preferences and I don't want to offend anyone.
And taking music that was already done and looping it, or even combining music taken from someone else and looping THAT in as well takes a modicum of talent, but my not goes to the CREATOR of the music.

David S. Wallens said:

So, back on topic, I found it interesting that the birth of hip-hop can be traced to a single moment in time: this date, this party, this person. (And, like my mom, it was born in the Bronx.)

That is really amazing. People will try to walk rock and roll back to Elvis, but Elvis took what was already there and made it his. That's different. This isn't a pivot or a branch in a timeline, so to speak. This is a new timeline starting. It is interesting that it can be traced back to such a specific person and event. Pretty wild. 

In reply to Duke :

I am familiar with and like Wax Tailor. I'll look into those others.

This thread reminds me that we are all different people and judge talent differently.  I can count many types of music that I think it talentless hacks, as well as specific works in a genre that I like that I think were made by talentless hacks.  But I'm not going to be specific, as my opinions are mine and are just opinions.  Especially when it's easy to see some incredibly amazing art that has resulted by genre origination.

You enjoy the kind of music you like in the way you like to listen to it.  And while you may think everything else sucks, it does not to other people, so just let them enjoy it.  No need to pee in someone's cereal.  

Beer Baron said:

So, what artists from the past 20 years (or especially 10) really have "It" that is going to hook me. So far, I think Kendrick Lamar might. I also enjoyed Madvillainy decently well.

Killer Mike first showed up on an Outkast track (without looking, Snappin and Trappin?) and has since become a force in Southern rap.  In the past decade ha partnered with El-P and formed Run The Jewels.

I still listen to a lot of Childish Gambino.

 STS partnered with Daily Bread for Edgewood & Boulevard which is just phenomenal. 

Pell and Murs both deserve honorable mentions for how much of their stuff is on my current playlists.

ddavidv said:

Hip Hop is like IPA beer. Lots of people seem to like it but the 'why' escapes me.

The essence, the basics without did you make it?
Allow me to make this childlike in nature
Rhythm, you have it or you don't
That's a fallacy, I'm in them
Every sprouting tree, every child of peace
Every cloud and sea, you see with your eyes

I see destruction and demise
Corruption in the skies (that's right)
From this berkeleying enterprise, now I'm sucked into your lies
Through Russel, not his muscles
But percussion he provides

For me as a guide, y'all can see me now
'Cause you don't see with your eye
You perceive with your mind, that's the inner (berkeley 'em)
So I'mma stick around with Russ and be a mentor

Bust a few rhymes so motherberkeleyers remember
Where the thought is, I brought all this
So you can survive when law is lawless (right here)
Feeling sensations that you thought was dead
No squealing and remember that it's all in your head

I think we find a lack of talent in current rap/hip-hop for a few reasons. The talented artist who music has meaning that isn't superficial, killing, gangster, berkeleying bitches are not advertised. There are a few who have broken out mainstream like Kendrick Lamar and J Cole. I can name tons of current artist who are just as talented and make just as good music as anyone from any era but they do not get any airtime or backing from record labels.

I discussed this with a friend who is a writer for a lot of musicians for many genres (hip hop, rock, and pop in the last 15-20 years). I will leave his name out but this is what he said, im paraphrasing here. 

"Music is owned by record labels, what we are exposed to via streaming platforms, tv and radio are all controlled by labels. Labels aren't looking for talent as much as they're looking for next hot artist. Streams > record sales, if they can find a person who can present an image and certain message that will be a hit then they have a better chance of being promoted. That is why current music as a whole seems so talentless and shallow. Its about the quick buck. Hip-Hop specifically was the newest thing in the early 80s. It was a shock to the masses to see such gritty expression in music from communities that aren't usually given much light (especially positive) in the media. Then the worst thing happened, hip-hop became a commercial success. Now labels started signing artist and doing trend analysis on what sold etc. What sold the most were the things most record buyers, white people, could not relate to. Which is music about street life and gangster rap that was originally made by people who lived that life. With that trend being so easy to capitalize off of, record labels decided to sign and promote that type of music. The more vulgar the lyrics the better it sold. Now instead of actual gangsters telling their story through music, these labels created the image and hired writers to write that music for artist who weren't exactly familiar with that life. Conscience rap started to die, the artist who spoke on social issues and oppression were not promoted like the artist who spoke on things that are counter productive. Therefore artist started learning that was what they needed to do to get signed. That goes on even today. Even though social media and other platforms has given "underground" artist a bigger stage to promote and market their music without having to be signed to a major label. Basically hip-hop is not owned by the people who made it but owned by the industry that benefits from it."

Eminem is a good example of this, in technical rapping skills he is very talented. But his lyrics did not age well nor are they really interesting to listen to in 2023. Why? Well when he hit the scene in 99 or so, his lyrics were so off in left field that people ate it up. And on top of that he had technically proficient skills and he could creatively freestyle effortlessly. His lyrical content isn't something we'd here today and say that's crazy because we are exposed to so much E36 M3 that it would just seem somewhat normal.

If you were to ask me who my fav hip-hop artist are this would be my list:

Lupe Fiasco, Andre3000, Black Thought, Doom.

In reply to yupididit :

Frank nailed it, 35 years ago:

He goes off on a different tangent after a couple minutes, but the first part is spot on.

The "decline of music" has been going on for generations.  Not sure why now is going to actually be the end.

The majority of people running the show will always favor the easy to sell product, and the minority will somehow keep experimental stuff going.  Music changes because of the latter.  Music we see as foundations of music were all new at some point- all of it.  And there's a 100% chance that the new stuff got flac for being new, and the change happened slowly.  

Proclaiming to dislike an entire genre of music is like saying you don't like Pizza.

there is some type of "pizza" that anyone could like. 
 

What aspect of a genre do you not like? Lyrics, beats, the producer or the image that the music portrays?

Most of the pop "hip hop" is pretty clowny. But thats pop music. Why does anyone like taylor swift? 
 

there is a ton of great new music out there but you have to poke around a bit. Its not going to be heard on the radio. 
 

Run the Jewels

El-p

DANIEL CEASAR! Younger guy,  but holy crap! 

Santigolg

Mac Miller(last few albums mostly for me)

any Outkast

i still like Juvenile.. cash money!

Paul Wall

Rittz

Oddisee

"The Internet"

Logic

thundercat

WU TANG!

different genre but

Claire Rosinkranz

MIDNIGHT ROLLERCOASTER!

I think that rap is a progression from a genre of music called spoken word, which I would think derived from oral history and epic poetry. When I was a kid, I had a radio station demo of Cassius Clay recorded in 1963. Not quite rap, but I think you can draw a connection.

In reply to yupididit and Duke:

There's an important distinction between the music and the music industry that both of you are onto.

I read a while back, and I apologize for not being able to recall who or get a quote right, that the "industry" part of the whole thing is a blip on the timeline of people making music. But it does have an outsized impact on who we get introduced to, which is a shame almost cast into starker relief given that we're technologically at a point that should make it easier than ever to get to hear stuff that fifty years ago we wouldn't have because they didn't get a record deal, or a hundred years ago because they didn't live in our town.

I have to credit Spotify for playing me stuff that's new to me and that I've liked, but I do get the impression that sometimes it's looking for the intersection of "stuff he'll listen to" and "stuff we have the most favorable deals with the labels on/stuff the labels want to push." Maybe that's a little tinfoil-hat, but I think it's foolish to think that Spotify's (or any other service's) recommendation engine is purely for the listener's benefit.

Ach, I found it! It was Brian Eno:

“I think records were just a little bubble through time and those who made a living from them for a while were lucky. There is no reason why anyone should have made so much money from selling records except that everything was right for this period of time. I always knew it would run out sooner or later. It couldn't last, and now it's running out. I don't particularly care that it is and like the way things are going. The record age was just a blip. It was a bit like if you had a source of whale blubber in the 1840s and it could be used as fuel. Before gas came along, if you traded in whale blubber, you were the richest man on Earth. Then gas came along and you'd be stuck with your whale blubber. Sorry mate – history's moving along. Recorded music equals whale blubber. Eventually, something else will replace it.”

I'm not sure I entirely agree; I think the streaming era has extended the model and made things as much worse as better, and removed some "ownership" from the listener, both in terms of personal agency and in terms of literally owning a collection of works. I just switched to an iPhone and the gyrations I've needed to do to listen to my own music files are insane. Apple really, really wants you to just let Apple Music manage your musical experience for a monthly fee, in perpetuity.

I just spent the last 4 hours flying from CA to GA. Right before I left, I read an article that included a link to a Spotify list of 50 influential rap songs as chosen by some influential rap artists of the past 50 years. It sure made the flight more enjoyable.

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2Pi7mS5GE0R93fiB3M1qzn?si=1EWBsXziSXqInokmqnOzBQ

And chalk me up under the heading of "most of any given genre is garbage, and virtually all genres contain good stuff." I certainly am more prone to some genres over others, but that's just a matter of personal taste.

It also reminds me of the funny way humans glom onto particular affinities by what we correlate with them. What is it about liking ska that also means one is likely to want a scooter and prefer an Irish stout over another beer? Or is it nothing at all to do with the beer or moto, and everything to do with the associations?

Pete and Bas is worth checking out. UK based but worth a listen THEN check out their videos. 

Classified is a Canadian rhyme artist / producer that is a good listen. 

TJL (Forum Supporter) said:

...

thundercat

...

You'd consider him Hip Hop? I suppose that fits what he's doing as well as any label, I would have pegged him more as R&B.

Beer Baron said:

TJL (Forum Supporter) said:

...

thundercat

...

You'd consider him Hip Hop? I suppose that fits what he's doing as well as any label, I would have pegged him more as R&B.

Kinda bounces around.

He has a granmy for best rap performance from his work on To Pimp A Butterfly 

NPR has been running a spotlight on many of the earliest folks from the movement over the last week.  Lots of cool interviews with folks talking about how it started and what it was all about.  It was super interesting and learned a lot.  I giggled when they talked about how many of the impromptu sessions/parties were setup.  Literally a folding table underneath the outdoor city light.  They would unscrew the bulb and run a power adapter to it with extension cords for the turntables and the speakers.  Pretty cool stuff.

https://www.npr.org/2023/08/10/1193337761/the-1a-record-club-celebrates-50-years-of-hip-hop#:~:text=above%20all%2C%20ubiquitous.-,Since%20its%20nebulous%20%22creation%22%20at%20a%20party%20in%20the%20Bronx,popular%20genres%20and%20cultural%20expressions.&text=tumblr-,The%20party%20flyer%20for%20Clive%20Campbell's%2C%20better%20known%20as%20DJ,with%20birthing%20modern%20hip%2Dhop.

In reply to Beer Baron :

Thundercat, formerly of Suicidal Tendencies. 

In reply to TJL (Forum Supporter) :

I agree, i thought I didn't like Country until I actually listened to Johnny Cash..  Love me some "Tennessee Stud"  Ironically i first heard it on the soundtrack for Jackie Brown.   But, we're talking about Hip-hop.  How about one of OG's

And sharing just because.

More for the listening party:

Living Colour’s Vernon Reid:

And one more as I think this introduced a lot of us to hip-hop. (Was this some of the first hip hop shown on MTV?)

All those years later, I now have this hanging here in my office.