SV reX said:In reply to Duke :
Yes, your point stands. But they are not wrong. They are not understanding your perspective. That's different.
Which means they are wrong about what I'm saying.
Clearly no one [ currently arguing against my point ] cares to understand what I am actually saying. They'd rather spew diatribe and accuse me of being a degenerate terrorist sympathizer.
So with that, I'm out again. I tried.
In reply to Toyman! :
Yes. I understand rape, murder, and torture. They are criminal acts committed against innocent persons for the purpose of controlling or subduing them through fear and violence. They are totally not acceptable.
You and I are probably much closer to each other in terms of our moral positions than Duke and I are, but this time I am with Duke. There is a major difference between understanding what violence is and how it happens and accepting it as ok.
This is far too complex to have such a binary view on it. For instance, Gaza is about 1/2 children. To level Gaza would mean the murder of 150k to 300k children.
Not one person here has defended the actions of Hamas. Not one person has said they're acceptable. Please stop attributing that to people in this thread, because it hasn't happened.
Please stop bringing up the rape and murder of women and children as an end-all-be-all to the discussion. Not one person is trying to justify any of that. They are unacceptable atrocities. Nobody is saying anything different. It is insulting to suggest otherwise.
If you don't acknowledge the motivations of your opponent, their reasons for doing what they're doing, you're not going to defeat them or have any kind of peace. Not this opponent anyway. They'll just reform and come back with more. You don't have to accept it or be ok with it or justify it to understand why they're doing what they're doing.
I'm out of the thread.
Duke said:SV reX said:In reply to Duke :
Yes, your point stands. But they are not wrong. They are not understanding your perspective. That's different.
Which means they are wrong about what I'm saying.
Clearly no one cares to understand what I am actually saying. They'd rather spew diatribe and accuse me of being a degenerate terrorist sympathizer.
So with that, I'm out again. I tried.
Duke, that's really not true. There are a lot of people here who understand exactly what you are actually saying, and many who agree with you.
I only see 2 people disagreeing with you. Are you trying to make a point, or change the opinions of 2 people who disagree with you?
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
Now we've made it to an analogy that, while certainly still imperfect, is mutually acceptable. My calling the little guy out as a scumbag was intended as calling him the (very) bad guy. So we agree on that too. What I'm not sure we agree on, since it's the only thing left to disagree on, is the somewhat philosophical question of whether the existence of a bad guy inherently makes his less-bad opponent a 'good guy'.
In reply to Driven5 :
Now we're playing the same game Duke and mtn are complaining about. No one here has called Israel "the good guy".
Any significant news?
Mrs AAZCD is making me take a fast from TV/radio news.
SV reX said:In reply to Toyman! :
Yes. I understand rape, murder, and torture. They are criminal acts committed against innocent persons for the purpose of controlling or subduing them through fear and violence. They are totally not acceptable.
You and I are probably much closer to each other in terms of our moral positions than Duke and I are, but this time I am with Duke. There is a major difference between understanding what violence is and how it happens and accepting it as ok.
I don't care why. Why, will not bring resolution. It's been tried. All it brings is more death.
Throughout history, Palestinians and other Arabs have proved time and again that this is acceptable behavior for them as a people. They have decided that this is the path that will get them what they want. Israel needs to show them the error of their ways in such a way that it becomes indelibly etched on not only the guilty but all who support them and their descendants for generations to come.
And I think that's my 5 so I'm on a time out for a bit.
This thread has a similar problem to the Ukraine thread. Someone tries to comment on "why" things happened, and everyone jumps on them saying they support those things. I dont know how many times I was called a Russia supporter for talking about the USs involvement in the lead up to the invasion. I also got downvoted into oblivion for saying using analogies to describe these complex situations shows an elementary understanding of them.
On a side note someone mentioned earlier about the correlation between the Philistines and Palestinians, I was taught (have no idea if its true) that they are considered to be one in the same (by some, it is debated) and the earliest use of Palestinian was Herodotus and Philistine and Palestine share a similar greek (?) root.
In reply to Opti :
https://greekreporter.com/2023/10/09/palestinians-ancient-philistines/
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:" I still abhor the killing of all children by any means. Do any of you? "
Good ol' Anthony. Just can't help himself.
If you don't agree, please explain. I think you have a right to explain it no matter what you think. Honestly, if you're going to come at someone personally by name, it is the polite thing to do. Go for it.
You made a statement that insults everyone in the thread. In one line, you question everyone's compassion and basic humanity by questioning something that should go without saying. If you cannot understand how that is an asshat move of the first order, adding further to the wordcount is futile.
Don't you find at least a tiny bit disturbing that the world only cares about murdered children when told to by the press or certain leaders? If my finding the murder of any child, for any reason, at any time, in any fashion is too much for some to understand, I'm fine with that. I'm very happy to disagree with most of society on this very issue. The group isn't always right. Groupthink blew up two space shuttles ending the space program, effectively. How many children need to die before adults start acting like adults? If that offends you and insults everyone as you claim, so he it.
And for me that issue is a central core belief I'm not going to change. We live in a pretty terrible world and I'm not going to disavow that reality because it makes people uncomfortable. I believe in open and honest speech and plain speech.
In reply to Opti :
And as long as we are discussing abilities discussing the middle east without religion and politics would be like discussing lap times at the FIRM without JG, without wheels and tires, and without a way to measure time. Good luck.
AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) said:Any significant news?
Mrs AAZCD is making me take a fast from TV/radio news.
Good Mrs are extremely valuable. I recommend a date night to thank her.
In reply to Duke :
Which means they are wrong about what I'm saying.
Clearly no one [ currently arguing against my point ] cares to understand what I am actually saying. They'd rather spew diatribe and accuse me of being a degenerate terrorist sympathizer.
So with that, I'm out again. I tried.
I tend to agree with you on most debate topics. I think we both often take the devil's advocate (really no pun intended) point of view and question the perceived norms. I've reread all of your posts, and I still can't see the meaning that you say is behind them. I believe you, I don't think you are a terrorist sympathizer. But I think your words have failed you. Your first post came across as anything but objective, and you repeatedly placed blame- your word- on Israel. You followed up with saying they didn't have the moral high ground. While there is some truth is all of those statements, your tone and timing did not paint the picture of making an objective observation.
Warning, analogy coming. While some complain analogies oversimplify complex situations, I believe they can also be used to cut through some of the clutter of complex situations to help get a clearer picture...
I'm pro law and order, and pro law enforcement. If a bodycam video comes out showing an officer gunning down a shoplifter and celebrating over their body, that would be a poor time for me to bring up that they shouldn't have committed the crime. It would be bad time to voice my support for law enforcement. Both of those would still be true, but they pale in comparison to the hideous action of the officer. Doing so would make it appear that I was okay with the result and blaming the shoplifter for the shooting.
In reply to Driven5 :
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
Now we've made it to an analogy that, while certainly still imperfect, is mutually acceptable. My calling the little guy out as a scumbag was intended as calling him the (very) bad guy. So we agree on that too. What I'm not sure we agree on, since it's the only thing left to disagree on, is the somewhat philosophical question of whether the existence of a bad guy inherently makes his less-bad opponent a 'good guy'.
It depends on your definition of good. If it means without flaw or fail, I don't think they exist at the national scale. Good guys don't survive long enough to form a nation. I think less bad is as close to a good guy as you are going to get when it comes to a nation. I think overall, many nations are becoming less bad Vs. historical norms, but the bar is pretty low throughout history. So since I believe Israel is significantly less bad, by orders of magnitude, compared to Hamas, they are the good guy by default. I'm sure there must be something that they do better for their people than Israel, but I can't find it. Israel has tried to coexist. I'm sure you could find faults in their methods. But switch the roles of power, and there would be no effort to coexist, and no Israel.
The history of the region is really interesting. There is a lot of anger about the existence of Israel, but they didn't have much of a choice. The Balfour declaration was brought up in this discussion. The Ottoman Empire was defeated, and some of the land was declared "a national home for Jewish people." Were they supposed to say no? The Ottomans lost, things like that have happened throughout history to losers.
I do find it a bit unfortunate how the Ottomans ended up in WWI. They were struggling and in decline, and desperate to remain neutral. They bought some warships from Germany. While they technically owned them, they had not yet been turned over and were still under command of the Germans. Who used them to attack a Russian port, resulting on Russia declaring war on the Ottomans. That's a good lesson to be careful of who you let borrow your car, or your warship.
Boost_Crazy said:The history of the region is really interesting. There is a lot of anger about the existence of Israel, but they didn't have much of a choice. The Balfour declaration was brought up in this discussion. The Ottoman Empire was defeated, and some of the land was declared "a national home for Jewish people." Were they supposed to say no? The Ottomans lost, things like that have happened throughout history to losers.
I do find it a bit unfortunate how the Ottomans ended up in WWI. They were struggling and in decline, and desperate to remain neutral. They bought some warships from Germany. While they technically owned them, they had not yet been turned over and were still under command of the Germans. Who used them to attack a Russian port, resulting on Russia declaring war on the Ottomans. That's a good lesson to be careful of who you let borrow your car, or your warship.
A couple of minor clarifications:
- The Balfour Declaration only indicated British support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and very vaguely at that; it was in no way a legally binding document. In the years that followed, the borders of Palestine were redefined and it became a British mandate, during which time substantial numbers of European Jews emigrated. The question of a purely Jewish state evolved over time, and of course the catalyst that pushed it into existence in 1948 was the Holocaust and surge in post-war emigration.
- The Ottomans may not have been quite ready to join the war when the Germans dragged them in (the incident you describe is quite a story - there's a photo in one of the books I have of the entire German crew on deck wearing fezzes), but they were headed there. There was long history of antagonism with Russia, and cooperation with Germany, the latter of which was viewed as a threat by the British in Egypt and Iraq (the Germans were working on the Berlin-Baghdad Railway). Neutrality was never going to be sustainable in that neighborhood.
In reply to bobzilla :
Israel is the good guy. In case anyone had any doubts.
They don't hide behind their populace, using them as human shields. They don't profess for the absolute annihilation/genocide of another people. They have a democracy, which Arabs participate in. They don't lob mortars and rockets across borders. They don't invade countries on their holy days (Yom Kippur War anyone?). They don't use money given to them for schools and hospitals for weapons and tunnels. They don't kidnap, murder and rape people.
Shall I continue?
This thread is over, way to go everyone.
maschinenbau said:This thread is over, way to go everyone.
I called Page 11, does this mean I win, assuming Price is Right rules?
volvoclearinghouse said:In reply to Opti :
https://greekreporter.com/2023/10/09/palestinians-ancient-philistines/
https://www.etymonline.com/word/Palestine#etymonline_v_3015
I said it was debated. I believe the roots of the words are shared.
Boost_Crazy said:In reply to Duke :
I'm pro law and order, and pro law enforcement. If a bodycam video comes out showing an officer gunning down a shoplifter and celebrating over their body, that would be a poor time for me to bring up that they shouldn't have committed the crime. It would be bad time to voice my support for law enforcement. Both of those would still be true, but they pale in comparison to the hideous action of the officer. Doing so would make it appear that I was okay with the result and blaming the shoplifter for the shooting.
I disagree with you here. It SHOULD be perfectly acceptable to discuss the nuance of a situation. The reason you think its taboo is because youve been conditioned culturally that we shouldnt discuss such things. The problem is that is antithetical to the principles the country was founded on. Most people have lost understanding of nuance. Just look around this board you see it everywhere.
We can all agree that this situation, the one that started thousands of years ago, is not likely to be resolved by people talking on a Motorsports forum. The simple fact that the layers involved with creating the vitriol emanating from the region involved are just as rancid and disgusting as the most recent acts. All of them.
Three major religions call the neighborhood home. None of them really understand the concept of acceptance, regardless that all three of their directing text lean heavily on the concept.
The humans living in the region are fallible to the point of falling back on the ignorance of previous generations because it is simply easier than asking themselves if there is a better way.
In reply to Opti :
Boost_Crazy said:In reply to Duke :
I'm pro law and order, and pro law enforcement. If a bodycam video comes out showing an officer gunning down a shoplifter and celebrating over their body, that would be a poor time for me to bring up that they shouldn't have committed the crime. It would be bad time to voice my support for law enforcement. Both of those would still be true, but they pale in comparison to the hideous action of the officer. Doing so would make it appear that I was okay with the result and blaming the shoplifter for the shooting.
I disagree with you here. It SHOULD be perfectly acceptable to discuss the nuance of a situation. The reason you think its taboo is because youve been conditioned culturally that we shouldnt discuss such things. The problem is that is antithetical to the principles the country was founded on. Most people have lost understanding of nuance. Just look around this board you see it everywhere.
I strongly agree with you in principal, but should and reality are pretty far apart right now. And even though I agree, I do think there should be some tact and awareness of the situation. If you focus just on the shoplifting, and say that the kid did the crime therefore it was his fault and he effectively committed suicide, you are going to lose pretty much everyone on the nuance. If you say the main problem was the cop shooting the unarmed kid in the back then handing out high fives, you can then discuss the nuance of how we ended up with the result in the first place. If your primary focus is on the shoplifting, you could be technically correct- but expect most people to not hear you and think that you are an unfeeling monster.
Any chance when we get to V3 of this thread we can limit it to the events happening/reported in region for those of us that want to understand more of the actual events and keep the religious and moral debate in a different thread?
I hate to interrupt this.... uhm... with news, but it looks like Israel has conducted some raids into Gaza. They continue to hit Hezbollah positions in Lebanon, clearly trying limit there ability to strike into Israel, and certainly discourage any incursions.
Another interesting event that happened a few days ago was the Israelis accidentally fired on an Egyptian unit across the border. The Egyptian response (having previously fought a few wars with Israel), was effectively "mistakes happen". Says something about Egypts position in this.
This night, the Israel Defense Forces raided Hamas facilities in the northern Gaza Strip - IDF.
It is reported that the operation was carried out using armored vehicles and infantry.
According to the IDF, during the raid, the Israeli military attacked many terrorists, destroyed their infrastructure, anti-tank positions, and after the raid left Gaza.
The Israeli army called it preparation for the next stages of operation.
This could also go in another thread:
A Hamas delegation arrived in Moscow
According to RIA Novosti, it is headed by Hamas Politburo member Abu Marzuk. The Russian Foreign Ministry has already confirmed the visit of representatives of the organization.
You'll need to log in to post.
