In reply to QuasiMofo (John Brown) :
Not a bad analogy, though it apparently came after the US pulled Israel's dinner jacket down behind its back and threatened to slap it silly if it started anything.
That the Israeli Supplemental was passed was the reward for their toning it down.
Sounds like the US is getting increasingly fed up with Israel playing fast & loose with Palestinian civilians' lives:
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/news/gaza-war-us-bomb-delay-160004446.html
Possibly because info on their targeting criteria is filtering into more mainstream news outlets:
I think that video is making some assumptions and missing some important points. See second post for AI comment.
They say Israel is bombing civilians to exert "civilian pressure"? As in, if the civilians get fed up enough, they will revolt against Hamas? This seems highly unlikely. Hamas has continually shown to take advantage of and even manufacture civilian casualties, and effectively revel in them (great marketing for them). This would be wild miscalculation by Israel if they are doing that, and from all I have seen, they are very aware of how Hamas uses civilian casualties. This "might" be a potential argument early on (realistically not), but certainly not now.
And again, there is a very simple solution to stopping the civilian casualties immediately, and what has been (generally) throughout history. If you are in an unwinnable situation and you don't want your civilians killed, surrender. Also, don't fight, or store weapons in sensitive civilian areas (e.g. hospitals and schools). But, as noted, Hamas has very little interesting in saving civilians (quite the opposite is more likely true). Heck, as brutal as the Germans and Japanese were in WWII, even they didn't do that (bombing of civilians was pretty much considered free game at that point of course, so it realistically wouldn't be much of a deterrent).
What is a "civilian" is always an issue. When there are (apparently almost entirely) non-uniformed combatants, it's always very easy to call most anyone a civilian. Also highly increased the chances of hitting actual innocent civilians (to be clear, certainly many truly innocents have been killed). One of the reasons why army's wear uniforms.
Casualties numbers should always be highly suspect (consider the source and their motivations), and remember who is defining "civilians".
It's VERY hard to draw any conclusions or get any meaningful data at this point. Who knows if we every will. Targeting in a city filled with civilians is always going to be super difficult and result in civilian casualties. Do we blame those dropping the bombs, or those hiding behind the civilians?
There really is no such thing as a "clean" war, civilian wise. To re-quote a movie quote "The only way to win, is not to play".
I saw another video of someone complaining how the Israeli's bombed their school. Why would they bomb a school? What it didn't note is that it is highly likely that school was being used as either a missile launching site, a weapons cache, or a fighting point by Hamas, which has been shown to be done many many times (certainly not the fault of the civilians, but hard to blame Israel too much for that) and making it a legitimate target.
In regards to AI weapons: Good new for those who need guided weapons in a very high jamming environment. Maybe not so good news for those who would like to avoid the robot "kill all humans" situation:
Lots and lots of "defense industry speak" in this, but essential it seems to be a quasi self-thinking self-targeting drone add on kit:
AV Unveils New AI Capability And Autonomy Kit For Unmanned Systems
....Through the combination of autonomy and computer vision, ARK and AVACORE allow operators to select a wide variety of single or multi-agent capabilities including multi-region search, track and follow and more. The introduction of these systems builds upon AV’s proven and trusted family of autonomous systems, bringing a scalable, adaptable AI toolset to fielded and new assets for safer, smarter mission capabilities....
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Who is defining fast and loose? Who is defining what constitutes a civilian? How much of the US response is political pandering? Has the US said different things publicly and privately? Since when has Vox or +972 Magazine become more mainstream? Are we to believe that they are willing and able to factually and completely explain Israel's military strategy in a 9 minute video? Have they made another video explaining how Hamas chose which men they beheaded, women they raped, and which babies they threw in ovens?
I think you have found more questions than answers.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
"Fast and loose" was my description of Israel's approach to civilian casualties, but the US is far from the the first to accuse Israel of excessive civilian deaths and lack of humanitarian access, only the latest:
The fact that it's difficult to tell civilians from non-uniformed combatants is no reason to assume that anywhere near a majority of the tens of thousands killed were combatants who had it coming:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67764664
When Israel gets pressure on this from first-world allies with expansive intelligence services you can be pretty sure it's for good reasons. And none of those issues can justify blockading humanitarian aid.
We can't know how much of the response is "political pandering" but being the latest and most serious in a long-escalating series of actions suggests it is not. We can't know what's being said privately, possibly even in secure diplomatic communications, but the contents of private communications could just as easily be even more rather than less critical vs. what's being said in public.
The last two questions are irrelevant. Israel's entire military strategy doesn't need to be covered to discuss one aspect of it, and an outlet doesn't need to spend equal time covering Hamas and Israeli wrongs to provide some kind of balance, neither should war crimes by one side give the other a free pass to respond in kind. I think it's pretty well known that Hamas' playbook is composed entirely of war crimes.
Anybody catch Fauda on Netflix?
I'm just starting season two and though it is fictional, it helps paint a picture of what's happening. Particularly the blurring of "sides" in the war.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
It does no good to cite statistics or "report" on those statistics if the source of those statistics is know to be corrupt. Your links base their reports on numbers submitted by Hamas. That should be enough, if you need further explanation as two why Hamas is not credible, let me know.
War sucks. That's why most of the world works hard to maintain peace. Israel did not start the war. Hamas feigned peace talks in a plot to launch an attack, starting a war they cannot win. If Hamas surrendered tomorrow, the war and the killing would end tomorrow. Every day they continue to fight, their people die. If they cared about their people, they would end the fighting. They care more about the fight than the people. The harder Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties, the harder Hamas works to draw the fighting to the civilians. Hamas' only hope is that good hearted but poor thinking people around the world fall for their bullE36 M3, and put restraints on Israel, allowing the fighting (and civilian casualties) to continue.
I'm not going to go any further on the political part, because political. I'll just say watch what they do, don't just listen what they say. Sometimes they are 180 apart. Also follow if the person making the statements actually has the authority to do what they say. It won't stop them from saying it and making headlines, and the backpedal a couple days later may not get the same coverage. Empty promises require no action or commitment, but often get the same praise.
The AI video you shared was presented as Israel's target selecting process. The fact that it is just a tool in the process with many other steps is incredibly relevant. As presented, it gives a horribly inaccurate portrayal of the process, to the point that it serves little useful purpose other than propaganda. The info itself was interesting. But it should have been presented as- here is one of the tools Israel uses to identify targets. Then this is what they do with that info. They could have followed that up "here are the pros and cons of this system" or "these safeguards are in place, these are lacking." Instead they imply W.O.P.R. is running the show.
Boost_Crazy said:In reply to GameboyRMH :
It does no good to cite statistics or "report" on those statistics if the source of those statistics is know to be corrupt. Your links base their reports on numbers submitted by Hamas. That should be enough, if you need further explanation as two why Hamas is not credible, let me know.
You're absolutely right that they shouldn't be trusted. Which is why I also linked to a 2nd opinion on those statistics:
American and U.N. officials say the death toll given by Palestinian officials is at least accurate and perhaps an undercount. Aid workers on the ground say that thousands more people could still be trapped under the rubble.
Boost_Crazy said:War sucks. That's why most of the world works hard to maintain peace. Israel did not start the war. Hamas feigned peace talks in a plot to launch an attack, starting a war they cannot win. If Hamas surrendered tomorrow, the war and the killing would end tomorrow. Every day they continue to fight, their people die. If they cared about their people, they would end the fighting. They care more about the fight than the people. The harder Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties, the harder Hamas works to draw the fighting to the civilians. Hamas' only hope is that good hearted but poor thinking people around the world fall for their bullE36 M3, and put restraints on Israel, allowing the fighting (and civilian casualties) to continue.
It's pretty well-established by now that Hamas has very little to negative interest in stopping Palestinian civilian casualties by any method. Palestinian civilians can't exactly hold a referendum tomorrow on having Hamas surrender either. So neither of the belligerents in this have shown much interest in keeping Palestinian civilians safe.
There is a bit of potential irony in the US pausing the weapons shipment. Some of the things they are specifically not sending are precision bombs (JDAMS etc), the larger ones are the ones you see take out entire buildings (likely a prime justification). The side effect of that is that Israel may have to use less precise weapons to take out Hamas targets, obviously increasing potential civilian casualties.
Realistically, it seems rather unlikely that Israel is completely out of these weapons, and like they would have enough for the attack on Rafah. A potential for running low on munitions also might actual encourage them to go in sooner than later or potentially be more aggressive then they might otherwise be.
Also realistically, Israel seems very close to attacking at this point. They have already dropped leaflets instructing civilians to flee north (I suspect Hamas is encouraging them to stay) and taken the crossing point into Egypt, I suspect to cutoff any escape. It looks like they are already making raids in to southern Rafah, so it may have begun already.
This all could very much be a ruse by the US to make it look like they are trying to discourage Israel, while fully realizing it will make no actual difference, but they can claim "they did something". There are a lot of mind games going on all around. I even heard Hamas agreed to a ceasefire proposal, and announced it. One issue. Israel never made that proposal. So now they can claim that Israel sabotaged their own proposal. Mind games...
Elimination of Hamas (in Gaza, I am sure they never will truly go away) is critical to everyone involved, especially the Gazan's, if they are to have any hope of reasonable future. Unfortunately, Hamas either demands return to power, or will cloak themselves in civilians bullet shields. It really is a no win situation.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
You're absolutely right that they shouldn't be trusted. Which is why I also linked to a 2nd opinion on those statistics:
American and U.N. officials say the death toll given by Palestinian officials is at least accurate and perhaps an undercount. Aid workers on the ground say that thousands more people could still be trapped under the rubble.
I'm trying- obviously failing- to convey to you that you should be a bit more critical of your sources. Your first two links were just fluff with no substance. Words like "might" and "possible" are not very definitive, especially if there is zero examples in the article to support the headline. It's junk reporting meant to stir emotion rather than inform. Your next two links relied on statistics supplied by Hamas. So what if American and UN officials agreed. Which officials? You could probably give me any position on anything and I could find US and UN officials that would support that position, that doesn't mean it's correct.
It's pretty well-established by now that Hamas has very little to negative interest in stopping Palestinian civilian casualties by any method. Palestinian civilians can't exactly hold a referendum tomorrow on having Hamas surrender either. So neither of the belligerents in this have shown much interest in keeping Palestinian civilians safe.
You accused Israel of playing "fast and loose" with civilian casualties. You have not shown any evidence to support that. The only data you shared was from Hamas, with zero insite on how those numbers are counted, and what constitutes a civilian in a situation where the enemy does not have a formal army and bases their operations from traditionally civilian buildings. You shared a misleading video purporting to show how Israel uses AI to maximize death and destruction. You have ignored all of the efforts Israel has taken to minimize- not eliminate- civilian casualties. An honest debate would be to ask what more could be done, what could Hamas do, and what could the civilians themselves do. Starting from "fast and loose" shows a lack of understanding of the situation. I recommend checking into the steps that Israel has taken to minimize civilian casualties, the steps Hamas has taken to make that difficult, and the lack of steps many citizens have taken to ensure their own safety and sadly that of their families.
I work for a school that is currently protesting, they have a few encampments, it has been mainly the students but now the professors have established their own encampments. The number 1 item is divestment from Israel, I wonder if these overly broad demands are feasible given the short falls for most schools, while this has happened in the past with the oil industry the economics of schools in a position to be closed are reality. Regardless I would have to believe this would effect the future of the Supplemental Appropriation Act and in the political campaign race I wonder if funding will be brought up among the candidates.
I rarely post these days because a lot of you are speculating based on personal bias and news sources you chose to believe. It says a lot and I like to limit who I interact with. With that said:
Israel is playing fast and loose. They wouldn't dare admit how many civilians vs Hamas they've killed.
Secondly, without American weapons their battery capacity wouldn't be able to sustain such violence. But, ole boy says they'd fight with their fingernails if need be.
This isn't a war.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or perceptions here, but I found this BBC report from November rather interesting. Certainly, the operation it describes suggests a degree of concern for Palestinian civilians, at least as far as primary collateral damage, but it also potentially serves Israeli purposes, from minimizing media blowback to creating confusion and congestion in areas where Hamas may be trying to move or operate. It also shows just how deeply Israeli intelligence functions inside Gaza.
Let me just say that nobody is clean. If my post fails to criticize this or that group, it doesn't mean that I'm giving them a pass. That said, the name that keeps coming up in my head for max criticism is Netanyahu. I can't believe that Israel's vaunted intelligence service could not have known that Hamas was using most of their funds for military ends. So since that was happening over a matter of years, the only logical conclusion that I can come up with is that Netanyahu decided to let them dig their own graves so-to-speak. He solicited a provocation and turned the dogs loose once it came. This means that he was using millions of lives, both in Gaza and Israel as pawns in the worst way.
In reply to yupididit :
Hamas has made war on civilians from the start.
Why should we expect Israel to do any different when Hamas is hiding behind their own civilians and using their own hospitals as bases?
In reply to Toyman! :
I'm also not going to go back and forth with most of y'all on the subject. Enjoy the one-sided discussion with me.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
Do you have better sources, better evidence to contradict mine? Or are you asking us to disregard what appears to be the most accurate and corroborated data publicly available because we can't be sure it was free from Hamas influence at the source, and make an evidence-free blanket assumption that the situation isn't that bad instead?
In reply to 02Pilot :
This makes me ask what the point of demolishing evacuated apartment buildings and residential neighborhoods is. No enemy combatants would be killed if all people are evacuated. Any hidden military hardware that could be moved would be moved during the evacuation, and Hamas has little fixed military infrastructure from my understanding. So why do it?
Based on the timing of the article o2 posted (Nov 23) they appear to be semi-revenge strikes for the Oct 7th attack. If they were true revenge strikes, they would not have let the buildings empty of course. Those sort of tit for tat style attacks / counter attacks have been going on for a very long time. In the past, if they took out a entire building, it was was more likely it was a Hamas command post, storage area, or rocket launching site. I suspect this was directly targeted at civilians (though not to kill them) because the Oct 7th attack was targeted at civilians (my guess).
Blustering, bluffing or not, the stalling of shipments is essentially mute at this point. The Israelis are apparently currently advancing into Rafah.
In reply to yupididit :
OK.
Why stop in here and post if you don't want a discussion?
Have you recently bought a Ford Transit? Just curious.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
My money's on tunnel entrances and/or arms caches (probably the former). It could be purely to displace civilians and disrupt Hamas movements, though I doubt this - most Hamas movements, at least operational ones, were already taking place underground. Given that Hamas, as the government of Gaza, also has nominal responsibility for civilian welfare, it could also be thought that they would either have to a) divert resources to assist displaced civilians, or b) fail to do so and thus expose themselves to harsh and widespread domestic criticism, thereby paving the way to undermining their support and fomenting their eventual replacement as the ruling party after the conflict. If they were just revenge/retaliation strikes, which I find quite unlikely, they were a waste of resources, pure and simple.
yupididit said:I rarely post these days because a lot of you are speculating based on personal bias and news sources you chose to believe. It says a lot and I like to limit who I interact with. With that said:
Israel is playing fast and loose. They wouldn't dare admit how many civilians vs Hamas they've killed.
Secondly, without American weapons their battery capacity wouldn't be able to sustain such violence. But, ole boy says they'd fight with their fingernails if need be.
This isn't a war.
All of this.
In reply to Toyman! :
Just stating facts real quick, man.
In reply to yupididit :
Which facts were those and what are your sources?
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