The recent posts about newer luxo cars losing value had me thinking, so I started looking, and found this '95 MB with 88k miles for less money than a 10 year old Subaru/Honda...Is the maintenance such an issue, that out of warranty, these are nightmares? And its got a new top. http://hartford.craigslist.org/ctd/1897193613.html
I think more of it has to do with who wants to buy luxo cars. They tend to be a status symbol, and much of their appeal comes in owning the latest and greatest.
A Honda is not a status symbol. If it runs and is comfortable, it runs and is comfortable.
If all you want is a car that is comfortable and will get you to work on time every day, you have a limited budget that only allows you to buy a used car, and aren't a savvy mechanic, will you buy the 10yo Honda or the 10yo Mercedes?
I would say absolutely! The depreciation on the high dollar luxo-yachts is huge.
Dood, I does Mercedes service for a living and I won't drive one of those. Beautiful cars, but they are EXPENSIVE if something breaks. Just because the car is cheap doesn't mean repairs and service are.
I defecate you not: if it needs all the hydraulic cylinders for the top they are approximately $8500.00. 
Yes, the decimal is in the right place. There's a guy out there advertising $45 rebuild kits for the cylinders but that only works if the shafts are not galled or worn. BTDT.
You don't even want to know what a timing chain costs. With high enough mileage coupled with indifferent oil changes, the tensioners will gum up, you start it one morning and there's a loud BANG and CRACK. The bang is the backfire, the crack is the chain breaking a hole in the valve cover.
If you really need a reasonable DD in that price range, swallow your pride and get a Camry or Accord.
J-Man is right as usual (when women aren't present). Most high end luxo cars are so saddled with unnecessary gimmicks and technology, and that's always the crap that breaks. Once they are dumped out of warranty, the following owners do less and less to keep everything working. They just try to keep the damn things running.
I just wrote an estimate yesterday on a M class Benz. The mirror (no housing included, mind you) was $685. For the basic model. Double that if it had memory seats or self dimming. Not something you will find in the junkyards, either.
I see too many people out there who fell into that whole 'look, thanks to depreciation I can buy a German luxmobile and impress my friends' trap.
I see people who have bought a late '90's/early '00's E320 (or worse an S Class) and have, say, the A/C evaporator ($2100.00), the A/C blower (the update kit is $800.00), or the front Airmatic struts ($1700.00 for remans, $2800.00 for new, add $850.00 if it burned the pump up) take a crap. This on a car they may have paid around $6k for.
A glaring example is a woman whose husband's business partner embezzeled him nearly dry, then killed himself. She had to go back to work selling real estate (in this market!) and decided she needed an S430 to impress clients. So she bought a used 2000 model out of Myrtle Beach for something like $6500.00, it had ~145K miles. She just came by on Friday for a new battery (that big mutha is $165.00 by itself) and I looked over what she has spent in 7 months: almost $4500.00. And she still hasn't replaced the $475.00 right outside mirror cover she wiped off in an encounter with a fence post.
So hot.
The ONLY way something like that makes sense though is if it involves an LSx drivetrain and megasquirt. And then you still get to deal with nagging chassis bullE36 M3, but at least nagging chassis bullE36 M3 doesn't generally keep you from getting to work on Monday. Too much nagging chassis bullE36 M3, and you replace that part of the car with a Painless wiring kit, autometer gauges, and a vintage air system and make the late model german steel think it's a 32 ford hot rod kit.
Interesting observations, it's just that I would have expected such an expensive "well-engineered" car to hold its value better over the years. I would never buy it as a daily driver or a weekend cruiser. If this is such a pain, I'd go with the luxo-car I'd really like to have--and I can already hear the moans, a Jag XJ-S with the later model V-12. Replace all the fuel system hosing, check the electrical connections, and enjoy a--to me--beautiful car. I guess this MB follows the road of the ordinary 928s, 7-series BMWs and others were the manufacturers are indignant their cars need replacement parts: this is how a 90k car got down into the econo-box money category. And, I buy my cars to impress me--my friends don't pay the gas, insurance, ...I buy cars that get me from a-to-b reliably, and a toy every couple of years.
triumph5 wrote: Interesting observations, it's just that I would have expected such an expensive "well-engineered" car to hold its value better over the years.
German marketers are way better at touting German engineering, than German engineers are about practicing it.
Luxury cars drop like a stone. All of them. The more expensive, the worse they drop.
triumph5 wrote: expensive "well-engineered" car
Ahh. Theres your problem.
Oxymoron. Should be over-engineered? Or overly-complex to simply show manufacturing ability.
This begs the question: what elegant, well appointed, luxury vehicles are not horrible maintenance whores?
I'd say that MB, Jag, and Audi are right out. So is pretty much anything exotic and/or Italian.
Lexus and Acura are obvious answers, but lack a lot of the flash, and certainly the driving joy of a fine German car.
BMW 3 and Z series seem to do pretty well for themselves. I don't know enough about 5 series.
Porsches seem to do okay, provided you know where to get parts and work done, but take quite a while to depreciate into the realm that mere mortals.
Mercedes if you get an old one, such as a W124 or earlier. When things do break, it will be costly, but they rarely break.
There is a lot of talk about how the r129 500sl isn't holding value as well as the older r107 560sl. I sure wouldn't want to have any electrical issues with a newer mercedes. I hear when mercedes started making the r129 they were pressured to reduce the amount of man hours per car because the older r107 sl it replaced took so much time and effort to make.
If I wanted to see how fast I could go broke a mercedes r129 600sl panoramic edition would fit the bill.
A honda with a few hundred thousand miles on it is a different beast than a mercedes with a few hundred thousand miles, a honda in need of repair is probably much easier to deal with than a mercedes. The fact there are a billion hondas make it more likely you'll find someone who knows how to work on it.
In reply to ddavidv:
I understand what you're saying about the rear view mirror on the M-Class. I priced one for my parents and it was that exact price from the dealership. However, there is 'a guy' that I've heard of who rebuilds them for about $100. I'm orderng one, so I'll let you know how that goes.
So - is it an issue of dealer prices/labor being very high. Do you folks take your cars to dealers? How much is a timing chain job on one of those cars? More than the timing chain on the 2.4l honda engines? More than 3-4 timing belt changes (assuming a comparable timing chain lasts 160 to 200k miles)?
Almost every air suspension has a retrofit kit to convert it to a regular suspension (Arnott's ->>Audi for example).
My point is - some of these issues have solutions that can be worked around and are legitimate.
Just for a point of reference, my father bought an M-class the first year they came out (1998) and he has over 250k miles on his. It's only seen dealer service it's entire life. I doubt it has cost him more that $6K in parts and labor. I'll ask him to add it all the reciepts up.
espz28 wrote: Just for a point of reference, my father bought an M-class the first year they came out (1998) and he has over 250k miles on his. It's only seen dealer service it's entire life. I doubt it has cost him more that $6K in parts and labor. I'll ask him to add it all the reciepts up.
You make valid points about workarounds.
But this scenario (bought new, dealer maintained, timely proper service) is a world apart from buying a $5000, 15 year-old SL from a shady Buy-Here-Pay-Here with no service records and zero known maintenance history.
espz28 wrote: In reply to ddavidv: Just for a point of reference, my father bought an M-class the first year they came out (1998) and he has over 250k miles on his. It's only seen dealer service it's entire life. I doubt it has cost him more that $6K in parts and labor. I'll ask him to add it all the reciepts up.
And serviced properly, at a dealer or properly equipped independent, you will get a zillion miles out of a Merc. Ignored, or repaired with sub-standard parts by someone who is not familiar with the cars is a recipe for disaster.
So Alex and Streetwiseguy, if this Merc had been dealer maintained, with records, care to guess at a fair sale price?
Your original question was 'are these maintenance nightmares when out of warranty' and I answered in the affirmative because yes they are. Mercedes are vastly overcomplicated cars and the 129 is probably the most over the top of the bunch. (BTW, my younger brother owns one and I have told him the same thing.)
If you can work on it yourself, that's great. Not everyone is willing to tackle a timing chain on these because once it jumps, it's something like 20-24 hours to remove the timing cover to straighten everything out (assuming it hasn't bent a valve). Don't take my word for it, check Alldata.
Yes, there are the Arnott (and other) air suspension work arounds but they are not yet available for all models and the ones I have priced for customers are not really a whole lot different in price than just hanging two front struts and a pump.
Anything is possible. I'm sure you could chop the wiring harness, grind different holes in the wood paneling and install $9 1980's GM window switches instead of the $75 Mercedes parts, for instance. There's all kinds of knockoff parts out there, for instance the window switches on 123's can be had cheap but you get what you pay for, i.e. they are poorly made India counterfeits.
Pull the cover off the top hydraulics for the 129 car and and look at the layout. Then realize there are a ton of flexible hydraulic lines running through the top frame, either 10 or 12 cylinders depending on the year and an electronic control module to run the pump and all the solenoids. Then there are the various switches that tell the unit when a step is completed so the next one can be implemented. The control unit cannot be tested; a known good one must be substituted. BTDT. There's an outfit in North Carolina that rebuilds them along with instrument clusters etc, but there are some they can't repair. Again, BTDT.
Then there's the vacuum operated door lock system. Good luck with that one if it barfs.
Mercedes builds tough cars, even if overcomplicated. I have customers knocking on half a million miles on some 124 body diesel cars and more than one 129 car with ~300K on them. That does not mean they are cheap or easy to fix. And that does not mean they are as reliable as a Honda, either. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I just asked a simple question, and I took at face value your answer of yes, they are difficult. I didn't mean to offend or insult antone's intelligene by asking. such a question.
The thought of hacking up a MB is counterproductive to the value of the car--and not my suggestion.
I appreciate the detailed examples of possible labor-intesive problem areas you pointed out. Thanks.
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