How to have "the talk" with parents--telling them they need to retire, or move, or similar

I'm looking for any input here that people may have. I probably won't be responding with any "That is a great idea" or "This won't work because", but will answer questions related to the situation for more clarification. Basically just asking "What would you do", or "what did you do" in similar situations if you've ever been there. No right or wrong answers.

Background

My in laws are 58 years old. My Mother in law has MS. She is not doing well overall.

My wife goes over every weekday morning at 6AM to wake her mom up, help her shower, get dressed, and get down the stairs. My wife or I make MIL’s breakfast (toast) and coffee. This allows my FIL a little extra rest and a little less stress. I honestly think that if we hadn’t moved to the same town as them when we did (September), my FIL would have died by now of a heart attack. As it is, his health has improved dramatically basically as a direct result of my wife and I moving to their neighborhood.)

MIL still drives, but as little as possible—basically it ends up being about 2 times a week, if that. I drive her into work every day, and I drive her home most days—usually 4 days a week. My wife, FIL, and to a lesser extent, BIL take her most every other place to minimize her driving. She really shouldn’t be driving at all.

My inlaws currently rely on MIL’s income. She needs to make it to February. We’re not sure the specific date, but in any case, she needs to keep working until a certain date in February. Then she can go on disability, and then when it runs out she can retire with full benefits and a full (or full enough) pension. It is really not an option at all to not work past February; the only way I can possibly make it out that it would work is if they divorced and my FIL ended up with most of the assets. Otherwise they’d be bankrupted within short order.

As mentioned above, I drive my MIL to work every day, and drive her home 4 days a week. This involves me leaving my house at 6:45, driving an hour of stop and go, getting MIL’s scooter out of the car and putting the seat in. Then I get in an uber for $2.50, and in 10-25 minutes, I’m at work. From when I leave my door to when I get to my desk is about 2 hours. On the return trip, it is a 15-20 minute rapid transit ride, then putting her scooter in the car, as well as helping her into the car if she’s not doing well, followed by another hour of stop and go. I leave my desk at 5PM, I’m home between 6:15 and 6:45.

End of background

My wife and I cannot keep doing this forever. While I truly am happy to help and it isn’t a big imposition for me to drive every day, it does take out a large chunk of my day. My commute without this would be about 45 minutes door to desk, and that would be mostly productive on a commuter train. My wife doesn’t need to get her mom ready every day early in the morning; it would be much easier for her to go over and check on her after work.

To make this matter harder, my MIL loves to work. I really do think it is what gets her out of bed every day as the rest of her hobbies have been taken away (or more accurately, she failed to adapt her hobbies to her situation). There is not really an option closer to home, and as far as I know, working from home isn’t possible either (it was tried in the past and failed).

Additionally, they live in a 2 story house. I’ve heard rumblings of them putting in a stair lift, but that will only be a temporary solution at best—soon, she won’t be able to go from wheelchair to lift to wheelchair at the top of the stairs (she currently walks around the house with a cane). How do we tell them that the need an elevator—or better yet, move to a condo or a ranch house? Ideally they’d sell their house (~$600k) and buy a ranch (~$350k) and outfit it to make it handicap friendly (~$50k to $200k depending on things).

My wife wanted to tell them that after February, I’m done driving her. I don’t want to do that, because I’ll keep driving her for as long as I need to, even if it is 2 years. But I do want to know the answers to these questions, and I do think it is our business.

My wife and I are discussing it, but I want outside opinions. I think we’re going to sit down with them and tell them that we need to know:

• When will you “retire”
• When are you going to move? (And tell them that a stair lift won’t be good enough, and be firm with the reason why—elevator, or move)
• When are you going to give up your license?
• We (mtn and Mrs. mtn) can’t do this longer than June (a bluff, but really, we don’t want to do it longer than February). What are your plans then?
• When are you going to get a wheelchair van? Before or after you’re in one? (she currently can get in and out of a car, but frequently needs help with both)

They’re afraid of change. My MIL hates vans. My FIL doesn’t want to leave the neighborhood. They’ll fight us and tell us we don’t need to worry about it. But we do. How do we keep it civil? How do we tell them that they can’t stay in their house? And keep in mind, these people are only 58.

Anybody ever have any advice, anecdotes, or ideas?

I got nothing, other than to say I feel your pain (going through end of life issues with my parents, but they are much older).

The handicapped retrofit items should not cost anything if you choose well. There are a LOT of options on the market for things that are already handicapped friendly.

I would also add that you need to work on your presentation a bit. Letting go of this stuff is much harder for them than for you. My mother wouldn't even think about letting me put in a wheelchair lift. I said, "OK Mom. How about if we put in a grandchild elevator?" She laughed, and gave in. She has really loved that thing ever since.

Spin and presentation are important.

Tried this one. Parents told me to eff off

My two cents.

Tell them what you are willing to do to help and for how long. Offer suggestions. From that point, it's their decision and their problem.

Anything more forceful than that will only cause problems.

Good luck. Don't expect things to go the way you think they will.

Man that's a tough one.

I think if I were in a similar position you have to have the talk. The points you have laid out are all very good. Its taxing on your life, you want to do it, but it cant go on forever.

I would look into a ranch house/single floor condo with a mother in law. Its not going to be long before live in help is going be really be needed (10-15 years down the road or less even). Its likely not going to be cheap to have help, but they can do all the things your currently doing (and more as the MS/age progresses). It sounds like getting through February will put you in a somewhat stable position for long term income.

If it were me thats what I would look for. Its not going to be a fun talk or transition but will be good in the long run IMO.

SVreX wrote: The handicapped retrofit items should not cost anything if you choose well. There are a LOT of options on the market for things that are already handicapped friendly. I would also add that you need to work on your presentation a bit. Letting go of this stuff is much harder for them than for you. My mother wouldn't even think about letting me put in a wheelchair lift. I said, "OK Mom. How about if we put in a grandchild elevator?"

How so? What is on the market?

And for the elevator, how much did it cost? Is it just a lift going a few stairs, or is it a full elevator to the second floor?

When my dad lost his leg, moving was out of the question, and with our landing situation, a stairlift was out of the question. We wound up converting part of the porch to a downstairs bedroom, and handicapped the shower and toilet in the laundry room. Couple of grab bars and shower made to hold a wheel chair.

We had a similar problem with my grandfather, who died last year at 94. He did the stairlift thing to get to hiss basement, but that really wasn't a great idea. His girlfriend basically lived with him his last few years because he refused to move. Hell, he refused to quit cutting grass and would ride the tractor side saddle.Until he finally fell off of it.

Seeing that your in-laws are younger than my mom, they might be able to be convinced into some remodeling if they're determined to stay in the house. But if they're anything like the people in my family, good luck getting any further than that.

It's never easy, especially when people are stubborn and hard headed. When having these conversations, sometimes the "whole family" being there is a bad idea. I'm sure we all have the overly emotional, logic defying people in our families, you don't want them there. You don't even want them to know until after decisions are made. It's also not a time to pull punches. Cover each side of what's happening and how it affects everyone's life. Sure you may come off like an shiny happy person, but that's kind of needed. Be honest with them about everything; how they affect your life, how it's affecting their lives, the realistic possibilities of work and income vs abilities and safety.

I wish you luck, it's never an easy thing to do.

In reply to mtn:

I don't know the market at all in IL, but I know we builders have been building decent accessible inventory for over 30 years.

Most condos and apartments (and many ranches) are already prepped. It's just a matter of shopping.

The lift was about 4'. I modified a wheelchair lift off a bus, and run it off 2- 12V batteries under the stairs with trickle chargers. Bought it on Ebay for like $500.

But most insurance will do better. A full chair lift is expensive, but covered largely by insurance. Plus, it's basically temporary. It can be removed without much damage to the building and resold.

"The talk" will not be only 1 talk. You need to begin accepting that it will be an ongoing conversation for the rest of your lives together. For me and my parents, its an ongoing series of problem solving. "How do I walk the dog?" "How do we make sure the stove is turned off?" "How do we make sure you keep current on your medications?" "Yes Mom, you told me that 3 times already today".

The current issue is that my Mom is no longer a very good driver. She keeps having fender benders, because she can't judge distances. I am putting her car back together with sheet metal screws (because it's gonna keep happening- no point in real body work), but soon I'm gonna have to take her keys away. That's gonna be really hard (But I will do it, as soon as I feel she has become a danger to others, which is soon.)

The hard part was learning to talk freely. My parents and I now do, and it's OK to talk about dying (among all the other things).

Sell quality of life and the benefit.

A chair isn't a hinderence, it always you to go out and experience things that you otherwise wouldn't or that would take longer to manage resulting is more work and less enjoyment. I wouldn't have been able to spend Sunday downtown with my wife and our nieces without one.

Start with small single steps that improve quality of life once a change has been successfully introduced and executed, then move on to the next one.

One other tidbit that makes everything more difficult: MIL is extremely image conscious. It used to be that she would rather stay home than go out in a wheelchair--and somehow a wheelchair is better than a scooter, even though in the wheelchair she can't move herself. She's getting better with it, but it is still baby steps. It baffles me, but then I'm not her and I don't have to deal with what she does every day.

In reply to mtn:

That was an issue with my grandfather "the cane makes me look old". No gramps, bald, grey hair,and clothing from the 50s make you look old, not to mention being 90. It was a battle for years to get him to do anything to help himself because he would appear to be old and incapable, even though that's exactly what he was.

Really have top sell the quality of life there. My dad was convinced he was going back to work as a project supervisor when he couldn't even remember what room of the house he was in.right up until the day his old boss and childhood friend died. taking the keys was a big fight, that finally ended after I refused to ride with him anywhere. Similar to taking my grandfather's keys actually. When I drive better after bottle of whiskey than you do sober and functional, it's time to give it up.

If you live in a more populous area, maybe something like uber could fill that void a little bit. Still keep up appearances "hey I have a private driver" and ease a little of yours and the wife's burden and concern with her driving herself.

All i have is look into simply home. They make adaptive equipment that i have used extensively in my professional career. Can improve independence and quality of life dramatically.

I can empathize with your MIL. At 30 I was hurt badly in a car accident and for most of a year unable to completely take care of myself. The loss of independence was crushing. Is there a possibility of Social Security Disability? Also, if she were on disability there are programs that would pay for mobility aids. Kudos to you for everything you are doing. As it has been said by others, this is a time for straight talk, as painful and uncomfortable as that may be.

Somewhere within the MIL's healthcare system will be a social worker. The hospital, Dr., or the National MS Society can point you in the right direction. These are all questions that have been asked and answered many times by people who are probably more knowledgeable than the well meaning GRM world. Although there are many great ideas here and they should be listened to, the people who have dealt with this tough disease will have a lot of information on what has the best success in your situation.

My wife worked for United Cerebral Palsy. They were able to help in ways that many never even considered.

Good luck my friend.

Make sure to focus the presentation on how you and your wife feel. How you perceive the world. Be very careful (and say you are trying to be careful) not to make assumptions.

Lay out facts, but let them validate each fact before it is acknowledged as such.

Once your facts are on the table ask to have them tell you how they might solve the problems. Your goal here is not to find a solution but rather to listen for what is most important to them.

Finally, craft solutions, but phrase like, "I'm not fully sold on this idea but what if..." Let them tear it apart. Listen for what is important to them. Craft again, repeat. Soon you will have a solution that actually addresses what is most important to them, which is what I'm hearing you want.

Oh, and don't expect this to be any less than probably 20 conversations. It will take time for self images to change.

I'm just posting here to bookmark this. Gotta go to bed now, but I will respond tomorrow in detail. My familiy has been in a similar situation - my father has Myotonic Muscular Dystrophy. Parents are currently age 62 & 64.

My parents are in great health despite both being around 70 and are in no rush to live the town they lived their entire lives. My MIL is in great shape, but is attached to her home. My FIL is terrible shape and hates maintaining their huge house.

I have a feeling that we may live together in the future. Maybe not in the same house, but on the same block or the same property. The question is where. If my wife has her way, it'll be here in Arizona. If I had my way it'd be in Pittsburgh (when the time comes) and we've often tried to convince her parents they need to buy a compound on the Gulf side of Florida.

My suggestion? Convince them to go in on a large property with two mostly separate living areas. Some people are content with a nice new mobile home in the north, a condo in Florida. I'm not sure this will work for your situation, but maybe they'll consider moving if the home is newer, nicer, and more upscale.

I've got pretty much nothing but empathy. My own parents sticking it out at home resulted in my wife and I faced with cleaning out an entire house in 30 days when they finally did decide to move with no help from either of them due to medical issues. Those were not a happy few weeks.

One tactic you may try to weave into this is how much of a burden it is on YOU and your wife. A lot of times parents simply don't see it that way, and the last thing they usually want is to be a burden. If there is a way to bring to light that you two are living a much poorer existence because of them it may get them to re-think their strategy.

Or not.

Toyman01 wrote: My two cents. Tell them what you are willing to do to help and for how long. Offer suggestions. From that point, it's their decision and their problem. Anything more forceful than that will only cause problems. Good luck. Don't expect things to go the way you think they will.

 + 1 million times this.

They are adults, and they are able to make their own decisions. Simply tell them your limits, and let them live with the consequences. Trust them to make the right choices when they will have to. They will have to let go of a LOT of things....that takes time.

ddavidv wrote: One tactic you may try to weave into this is how much of a burden it is on YOU and your wife. A lot of times parents simply don't see it that way, and the last thing they usually want is to be a burden. If there is a way to bring to light that you two are living a much poorer existence because of them it may get them to re-think their strategy. Or not.

This seems like a high risk strategy to me. Making yourself sound victimized or imposed upon by their situation could really be taken the wrong way. Complaining about having to be gone from the house for 12 hours a day seems like a trivial inconvenience that pales in comparison to what they're dealing with. I'm not suggesting that's what OP is doing, just saying I don't know that it would be a wise approach. That doesn't mean it won't work, but you'll have to know the parties involved very well to determine if it's worth taking that risk.

To the OP, I dealt with a kind of similar situation with a parent of similar age having terminal cancer, and eventually not being able to care for their own place. Frank discussions became pretty common as there wasn't much time to beat around the bush, and all parties knew it. No offense was taken when it was suggested they move in with us. We sold it by focusing on quality of life left and how that would benefit all of us, rather than the loss of independence on their part. Personalities and relationships play a key role here though. You have to know the individual well enough to have an idea of what is acceptable, and how to sell it to them.

The last thing I'll say, is that the few months my dad lived with us were difficult. We had a small, 1 bed/1 bath house with 3 adults. At times it was taxing on all of the relationships involved. It was also a million times better than having him live out his days somewhere else would've been. I cherished the time we spent together in his final months, and wouldn't give it back for anything. Do as much as you can for as long as you can. Have a plan in place for post-February life, and treat it as retirement rather than a death sentence.

So, I'm not really sure where to start. My family has lots in common with the original post.

RE: License. If she is resisting giving it up, good luck. Aside from me flat out telling my father he shouldn't be driving, we have tried this: anonymous complaint to the DMV. Many states will 'investigate' a person reported that shouldn't be driving. The state had a doctor evaluate his abilities, then someone at the DMV. Much more specialized test than your typical driving test. Somehow, he passed. Twice. Complete horseE36 M3, but it is what it is. He has to go again this year and I hope they take it away.

Perhaps doing the same thing with your MIL would at least make her consider her actions more?

RE: The conversation. Is your FIL on board with this? I know in my situation, my mother is exhausted. Neither of my parents work. She retired and within a couple of months, taking care of my father became a full time job. She would be supportive of any 'conversation' I could have with my father, but struggles to tell him these things to his face. He's very defensive and unwilling to admit his condition is as bad as it is. He fights back a lot, says nasty things, and honestly is a bit of an shiny happy person about it. I'm not sure whether or not to attribute this to him or the disease :(

RE: Housing. All I can say here, is that if MS results in a decline like MD (in my father's case), upgrades/changing homes/etc. are all just temporary. Think longer term. By the time my parents 'downsized' (which they failed at), my father's condition had changed enough that although some of the problems of their old house are gone, its just whole new different set of problems. They didn't get ahead of the curve, they just barely kept pace with it.

Sorry I'm not really providing much help here, I'm more just venting as well. I wish you the best of luck, and please update this as I would like to know the outcomes. I'm sure it could be beneficial to me and to others as well. If you ever need someone to talk to or just vent to, you know how to reach me.

fanfoy wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: My two cents. Tell them what you are willing to do to help and for how long. Offer suggestions. From that point, it's their decision and their problem. Anything more forceful than that will only cause problems. Good luck. Don't expect things to go the way you think they will.

+ 1 million times this. They are adults, and they are able to make their own decisions. Simply tell them your limits, and let them live with the consequences. Trust them to make the right choices when they will have to. They will have to let go of a LOT of things....that takes time.

I support this position, but also recognize it's not always true.

I realize most members on this forum do not have 90 year old parents, but for some of us, this reality changes, whether or not we like it.

Part of the hard part for me is that my parents are NOT adults anymore, and are simply not always able to make decisions for themselves. They each live alone, and my job sometimes seems to be to create the illusion of independence while actually handling a great deal more than they are aware of.

It's hard watching the people I once trusted to raise me reverting to conditions of second childhood.

YMMV

mtn, you're a good guy and thank you for taking care of your in-laws like this. I know it's a ton of work and you're going beyond what many people would do. Be careful not to make it a "you have to do this, you have to do that" conversation. They're adults and don't need to be dictated to, same as you. At 58 and with MS your MIL's mental faculties are fully intact.

And the truth is, while you're fulfilling a much needed role, that role need not fall on you or your wife. Don't make the mistake of thinking that important = irreplaceable. There are people whose jobs revolve around doing exactly what you're doing. Maybe if you can't handle it any more it's time for them to hire someone to do it. And maybe if they see the actual cost of what they're receiving for free right now they'll recognize that it's possible it's time for things to change.

dculberson wrote: And the truth is, while you're fulfilling a much needed role, that role need not fall on you or your wife. Don't make the mistake of thinking that important = irreplaceable. There are people whose jobs revolve around doing exactly what you're doing. Maybe if you can't handle it any more it's time for them to hire someone to do it. And maybe if they see the actual cost of what they're receiving for free right now they'll recognize that it's possible it's time for things to change.

That is an option that we'd be happy with. We just need them to be aware that we can't do this forever, and need them to give us an end date.