In reply to californiamilleghia :
One of few positive things I'll say about this corner of the state is cell service since 4GLTE, and 5G became "mainstream" is awesome. The entire I70 corridor and most of the little backwater, used to be industry now dying small towns have excellent 5G coverage.
Which is amazing because a lot of the state still doesn't have high speed internet, as we found out with the school closures last year.
03Panther said:In reply to RevRico :
It's all only a theoretical discussion for me, as I can't afford a ev in the first place, but I definitely had not known there were that many places to charge, out here on the east coast. After ya sort through the excessive anger and E36 M3ty attitude, I think I agree with you. If those are actually viable charging options, more folks should know about them.
I'm not in a place for an EV either, yet, but if that rumored $25k Tesla becomes real, we may get one to replace the civic.
I do have a not quite well to do, but better off than me, friend who's been trying to get a Tesla "dealer" setup that would, with proper motivation, want to do a charging station setup to get his foot in the door.
A lot of anger and frustration because of personal things in life, but also EVERY single EV thread we get gets hit by the same half dozen people that want to go across the country on one charge towing a house trailer, a bobcat, and a boat. Every single thread. It's like dealing with my youngest kid. Just look at the model S plaid quarter mile thread and see the goalposts fly down the highway for things that have NOTHING to do with drag racing.
Oddly enough, I'm not seeing them in this thread asking specifically what they'd want to see for charging infrastructure.
In reply to RevRico :
There's a difference between high speed internet not being available and persons within certain parts of the state not being able to afford it. Or it not being available because the providers perceive that persons within certain locations cannot afford it.
I would change the within 15 minutes of an interstate to within 5. And I would focus on high speed charging capability. If I'm having to stop somewhere for two or three hours I'm picking it based upon the activity not charging and locations such as malls, movie theaters and upscale grocery stores already have charging stations. In the slow charging business model you're already following and not leading.
With regards to the moving bar and target, That is always going to be the case in emerging technologies. It is also why unless you're targeting high speed charging you're already way behind the curve.
In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
No. Back when that executive order 2 presidents ago to get broadband to everybody came out, Verizon bought their way into a contract with the state with their 3mbps DSL, then promptly quit servicing any and all copper in the state after they laid a claim to the poles the lines run on.
The way internet and poles work here is so beyond backwards you'd think executives drew up the maps the same way they did at the end of Ma Bell. In fact they probably did.
There are several ISPs trying to pickup the slack, but they have to fight in court for every single utility pole they want to string fiber from because Comvajajay and Verizon don't want to give up their monopolies even if they aren't currently providing service.
Sure there's satellite, but if you've ever used Hughesnet before, you know why it's not meant for hilly rainy areas.
At least the cell phone companies are trying to bridge the gap.
It still feels like leaving Pittsburgh or Philadelphia is going back to the 90s tech wise, but it has lead to interesting developments, such as my town of 500 people having cheap gigabit internet available from Atlantic broadband, while neighborhoods of 10,000 people have to share DSL connections or pay three times as much for 1/5 the speed through comcrap. And lots and lots of places that were cellular dead zones are now 5G hot beds.
Copper and satellite aren't high speed. Fiber is really the only option with cell being close behind. Again similar to the charging speed aspect, what was reality 10 years ago doesn't hold water in today's standards.
Infrastructure needs to be built for the future and scalable instead of built upon current use and capacity. Think about the highway system and expansion and additional lanes and the construction and headaches along with it. Had they initially built highways for crossing each direction instead of two across in each direction, they would have been cheaper and easier to develop and maintain.
Mndsm said:Charging station+strip club+wing buffet.
This would be winning!!!
Jcamper said:In reply to RevRico :
Looks like each pair of teslas are capable of 145kW, call it 150kVA. That means to do 4 stalls you may be at the edge of single phase transformer capacity, depends on local utility. I think you probably need 480V secondary though which is generally a 3 phase transformer. Last time I bought a 3 phase 500 kVA, 480V secondary transformer it was in the neighborhood of $13k. Add in having to tap into existing, run extension, two vaults, all the assorted stuff you may need, conduit, elbows, wire, install, you are probably looking at $25-30k just to have the appropriate sized electric service-if you have 3 phase distribution running across your property. Talk to your utility. Jcamper
That sounds low to me. My employer put in 8-10 EV charging spots (ChargePoint, I think) a couple years ago (outside a building that already had substantial power service for the data center) and I was told the bill was well into six figures.
I wonder what it costs to put in a gas station? Just curious as a matter of comparison because I've never really thought about it. The permits, pumps and tanks - figure that anything beyond that would be common to both kinds of stations.
In reply to RevRico :
Till joining this forum a year and a half ago, I really had not looked at ev's since the 70's. Since then the diy aspect was either way over my tech knowledge, or low capacity identical to the 70's. Last year I had to pass on a motor, trans and controller pulled from a factory new conversion 92 s10, cause I didn't have $600. Though old school, I could have slipped than into my Astro van, and had room for enough batteries to make it to work!
I am still skeptical of infrastructure support, and the effencincy numbers that get thrown around are not as good as the proponents claim, but reading ev threads on here, I see things have progressed way beyond what I knew. No longer any affordable DIY options, and still a long way to go. But better than I thought!
To make that short, I was one of the detractors (and have legit concerns) , but am coming 'round a bit. And try not to be rude with a questioning attitude!
I only need an EV that can go 100 miles on a charge, with ac on in the summer, and do 45-55 for half that trip, and a bit more than 55 for two miles. Since that's WAY out I my price range, I did not know there are reasonable cars out there now that can do that.
Can that replace all ICE's in less than ten years... no way. But not related to your question, except in a limited way.
I too feel most would want a charging station within 5 min of interstate, and agree, unlimited wi fi access replaces a lot of other entertainment!
Keith Tanner said:I wonder what it costs to put in a gas station? Just curious as a matter of comparison because I've never really thought about it. The permits, pumps and tanks - figure that anything beyond that would be common to both kinds of stations.
I'd wager that it costs considerably more to upgrade stations to the new no-leak tanks than to build a new set of high output charging stations.
But the real problem is who is driving the ship- oil companies make money selling gas, so their investment into gas stations makes sense. Having the car companies invest into charging stations is not nearly as profitable, since the extra cars they sell won't cover the station investment so much. If it were utilities that could sell the power at a premium, that would be a far different driver- and THAT I would bet would see a massive influx of charging stations.
Wendover did a good video of this a few months ago. Interesting explanation, but I think some of his "tipping point" numbers are based off of surveys assuming a normal disribution.
In reply to alfadriver :
VERY accurate assessment, in my opinion!
I may not agree with all the statements made about the enviromemtal differences, but that is also partly because none (ok, most, would be more fair) of the decisions don't have anything to do with the environment.
alfadriver said:I'd wager that it costs considerably more to upgrade stations to the new no-leak tanks than to build a new set of high output charging stations.
Consider that a 20-stall Tesla supercharger station is something five megawatts.
alfadriver said:Keith Tanner said:I wonder what it costs to put in a gas station? Just curious as a matter of comparison because I've never really thought about it. The permits, pumps and tanks - figure that anything beyond that would be common to both kinds of stations.
I'd wager that it costs considerably more to upgrade stations to the new no-leak tanks than to build a new set of high output charging stations.
But the real problem is who is driving the ship- oil companies make money selling gas, so their investment into gas stations makes sense. Having the car companies invest into charging stations is not nearly as profitable, since the extra cars they sell won't cover the station investment so much. If it were utilities that could sell the power at a premium, that would be a far different driver- and THAT I would bet would see a massive influx of charging stations.
Wendover did a good video of this a few months ago. Interesting explanation, but I think some of his "tipping point" numbers are based off of surveys assuming a normal disribution.
Tesla built the Supercharger network to solve the chicken/egg problem and I suspect it's still a big selling point for the cars. The fact that they had control over the chargers and the cars meant they were able to integrate them very well - they work the way you'd hope they'd work in an ideal world, which is a trick the third part networks haven't managed yet. It's a significant asset and is arguably a major factor for the adoption of EVs into the mainstream. As I mentioned before, you can see the overriding strategy in the distribution of stations when compared to other networks. It was the overall coverage of the country that was the goal, not maximizing revenue directly.
But that's a temporary situation. A decade from now when the market has accepted EVs as normal vehicles, it'll make more sense for charging stations to be self-sufficient. Will they be owned by utilities? Or will they be electricity resellers that are making more off the convenience stores than the chargers? I guess we'll find out. The increased demand for charging stations will drive investment. I suspect there will be some government involvement in building out the infrastructure, which is something that governments do.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
It is a chicken and egg thing, for sure. But having seen some other reports, Tesla isn't doing themselves any favors by having a unique system. The EU drove a common standard, whereas the US does not. Which makes multiple charging systems out there for high speed charging.
Given that the charging network is such a big deal for consumers, it would have made more sense for Tesla to push a common standard among everyone, which would increase the consumer appeal to EVs. I know Tesla would not think it's "fair" for them to pay for charging a Leaf, just like VW doesn't like the concept of letting Teslas charge on their system. But the better solution would be to make a single system, and make sure the horse is out there to lead the cart. Especially since it would allow Tesla to save money for the entire network- like for RevRico to make a charging station where one is needed.
One of the opening comments in this thread was "who's system" to use- whereas a single system would have made the process a whole lot easier.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:alfadriver said:I'd wager that it costs considerably more to upgrade stations to the new no-leak tanks than to build a new set of high output charging stations.
Consider that a 20-stall Tesla supercharger station is something five megawatts.
I fully realize that.... Which is one reason why it makes more sense for the utility companies to build the stations, like the oil companies do for gas stations.
But even that- compared to 2 massive tanks that have very strict leak rules, including detection- all of it buried- I would still bet that the 20 stall station would be cheaper than a nominal gas station.
The gas stations I've built have been medium sized and run about $4 million.
I think if you have more than 4 or 6 charging stalls, you may need 3 phase power. This will be hard to get near interstates.
In reply to alfadriver :
I believe that either GM or Ford announced within the past 30 months that their plan is to transition from a "transportation" focused company to an information focused company.
If my vehicle is tethered to a charging system that could/does also has a data port, if I'm ordering food or beverage items from inside via an app, or using a rewards program number when making my purchase inside and if you have projectors in the charging station for me to select a program, app or need to stream, while my vehicle charges, then in that half hour you've gained information to sell to cable and mobile providers, streaming services, insurance companies, groceries, ready to cook food prep services and the hospitality industry.
In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
I built that demo for Nortel and GM/OnStar in 2000 :) We showed it in the back of a Cadillac. I think I still have it.
alfadriver said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
It is a chicken and egg thing, for sure. But having seen some other reports, Tesla isn't doing themselves any favors by having a unique system. The EU drove a common standard, whereas the US does not. Which makes multiple charging systems out there for high speed charging.
Given that the charging network is such a big deal for consumers, it would have made more sense for Tesla to push a common standard among everyone, which would increase the consumer appeal to EVs. I know Tesla would not think it's "fair" for them to pay for charging a Leaf, just like VW doesn't like the concept of letting Teslas charge on their system. But the better solution would be to make a single system, and make sure the horse is out there to lead the cart. Especially since it would allow Tesla to save money for the entire network- like for RevRico to make a charging station where one is needed.
One of the opening comments in this thread was "who's system" to use- whereas a single system would have made the process a whole lot easier.
Oh, I agree 100% that the multitude of standards is a problem, and the fact that my car can't use CCS is my biggest concern for long-term ownership. I'm not sure why Tesla didn't use an existing standard. I haven't looked into the chronology to see if there was a viable standard when Tesla started building theirs. But it did allow them to build in things that are just starting to get rolled into the other standards, such as payment info. With a Supercharger, you just roll up, plug in and you're done. With the others, you have to find some way to manage billing and the price structure can be challenging. Maybe it just wasn't technically possible to build what they wanted at the time.
It's my understanding that Tesla has offered to open their network to other manufacturers for years but the open source behavior they demanded from participants was too much. Aptera can/will use it.
It's going to require a lot of juice and probably some costly setup. I'd look into anything I could to offset the utilities cost. Solar rebates or grants? Net metering for solar to sell some electricity that's been generated?
STM317 said:It's going to require a lot of juice and probably some costly setup. I'd look into anything I could to offset the utilities cost. Solar rebates or grants? Net metering for solar to sell some electricity that's been generated?
The more I think about it, the biggest driver would be to allow utilities to charge a little bit more for electricity for fast chargers. That would make the profit motive to spread power stations across the country- much like Kureg or Nespresso coffee or even all printers- it's not the machine that's profitable, it's selling coffee and ink. If Detroit Edison can make extra money filling up cars- that gives them the incentive to supply the power lines, the conversion stations, etc. There are quite a few "green power" initiutuves out there, so having a solar farm or wind farm nearby would be a possibility, too.
Maybe even give some play to medium scale electrical storage, too.
Everyone is super worried about the grid, right? Which is quite fair. Letting the grid make money on fast chargers would supply a good incentive to upgrade that, too. Maybe even have some power grid start ups just to supply fast chargers.
In the context of this thead- (assuming location), picture a Duquesne Light Company station with stuff inside, which would be just like the Shell station on the other side of the freeway.
alfadriver said:Maybe even give some play to medium scale electrical storage, too.
This, for sure, at least make sure you have room for it in the future. Some day not too far from now a car might show up and want to charge at a crazy-stupid-fast rate that no grid connection could provide - or a whole bunch of cars wanting to charge at a more reasonable rate might show up at once. Or the power might just go out which would be pretty inconvenient.
How would I build a charging station?
I WOULDN'T build it as a hands-off "low overhead" model. Much too easy for competitors to replicate and steal your customers and put you out of business.
I'd build it as a micro-destination, and I'd make the whole thing have a vintage flair to it.
I'd make all the stations look like vintage gas pumps:
Then I'd install activities that were also retro. Maybe pinball machines, or early video games like Ms PacMan. Skeeball, etc.
Perhaps a go-kart track, wine and coffee shop, putt-putt golf, slot car racing, maybe even a General Store style gift shop. Barrels of candy suckers, vintage travel games, automotive themed memorabilia. Picture Cracker Barrel, for cars.
I'd give folks a chance to enjoy automotive and travel of the past, while charging their modern high-tech cars. Make it fun, with stuff they can't get easily in most places.
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