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RX Reven'
RX Reven' Dork
12/12/15 8:38 p.m.
Toyman01 wrote: In reply to alfadriver: So, much like all the rest of the politicians, he has a "plan". A "plan" that we know, from past experience, won't work because no politician's plan survives congress. It gets hacked up, they kick the can down the road another term or two. Then we, the American people, get another bullE36 M3 piece of legislation, that costs trillions, doesn't work, adds to the debt, and generally makes life harder for those of us that aren't rich or poor. I have no faith in the federal government. None. They have proved to be untrustworthy and dishonest. I won't vote for anyone that wants to add to their power. I will vote for anyone that will limit their power, balance the budget, and pay down the deficit. Unfortunately I might as well cast my vote for Santa. There is a better chance of him actually existing.

Hi Toyman01,

I’m in tight agreement with all of our points and I really admire how succinctly you laid them out.

I just finished reading one of Dr. Carson’s books and he is only candidate in the lineup that uses the language of real, holistic process improvement – Lean, Six Sigma, Adding Value, Quantifiable Objectives, Performance Metrics, etc. I was reading his book while on a layover at Salt Lake Int. and this guy came up to me and asked “what do you think” and I told him “if elected, he may wind up being a conservative Jimmy Carter…smart, well intentioned, honest to the core but far too naïve to survive the D.C. machine.

Toyman01
Toyman01 MegaDork
12/12/15 8:43 p.m.
The0retical wrote: Sanders is interesting because he's genuine about what he is. It's sad that even if people don't agree with his stance on many platforms they'd still be willing to vote for him because he is genuine.

The same could be said about Trump. To me they are opposite sides of the same coin and equally insane. Of the two, Sanders worries me more. His vote buying has a better chance of working.

Toyman01
Toyman01 MegaDork
12/12/15 8:49 p.m.

In reply to RX Reven':

Carson will never win. He's not slimy enough for the establishment to deal with him.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/12/15 10:01 p.m.
Toyman01 wrote: In reply to alfadriver: So, much like all the rest of the politicians, he has a "plan". A "plan" that we know, from past experience, won't work because no politician's plan survives congress. It gets hacked up, they kick the can down the road another term or two. Then we, the American people, get another bullE36 M3 piece of legislation, that costs trillions, doesn't work, adds to the debt, and generally makes life harder for those of us that aren't rich or poor. I have no faith in the federal government. None. They have proved to be untrustworthy and dishonest. I won't vote for anyone that wants to add to their power. I will vote for anyone that will limit their power, balance the budget, and pay down the deficit. Unfortunately I might as well cast my vote for Santa. There is a better chance of him actually existing.

And that's what I don't really like about Sanders- great ideas (I'm a liberal), but unrealistic expectations. Heck, Obama struggle to pass a health care bill with a majority in both houses.

Maybe we go to open primaries- where everybody is bundled into one- and the best 2-3 go to November, regardless of the party. Perhaps that will generate more interest than the fringes to the primaries.

Adrift
Adrift Reader
12/12/15 10:09 p.m.

I don't understand why the taxpayers pay for party primaries anyway. The parties should pay to provide them.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
12/12/15 10:30 p.m.

In reply to Toyman01:

I honestly do not understand what rational you have for your opinions or positions. I really and truly don't.

Toyman01
Toyman01 MegaDork
12/13/15 7:47 a.m.
Flight Service wrote: In reply to Toyman01: I honestly do not understand what rational you have for your opinions or positions. I really and truly don't.

Unfortunately, we have a fundamental difference in opinion as to the role of the federal government. You appear to want the federal government to provide you with a better life through social programs and assistance. I want the federal government to leave me alone and let me fail or succeed on my own. We will probably never understand each other...

(deleted)

And with that, I'm done with this one. This thread has already pushed the limits of what's allowed here.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
12/13/15 7:55 a.m.

In reply to Toyman01:

I pay much more in state taxes than federal. Hasn't helped GA one bit.

Though I do agree with most of what you say (dangerous statement- I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know if you just said something dumb. lol! )

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
12/13/15 7:56 a.m.

I think I just agreed with what you deleted.

Toyman01
Toyman01 MegaDork
12/13/15 8:00 a.m.

In reply to SVreX:

Yeah, I posted it and realized it probably would make the powers that be want to fondle the ban hammer, for political reasons. This has been a pretty good one so far, but I don't want to be "that guy" that got another thread locked.

It needs to be more local than state, just as it needs to be more state than federal.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/13/15 8:07 a.m.
Toyman01 wrote:
Flight Service wrote: In reply to Toyman01: I honestly do not understand what rational you have for your opinions or positions. I really and truly don't.
Unfortunately, we have a fundamental difference in opinion as to the role of the federal government. You appear to want the federal government to provide you with a better life through social programs and assistance. I want the federal government to leave me alone and let me fail or succeed on my own. We will probably never understand each other... (deleted) And with that, I'm done with this one. This thread has already pushed the limits of what's allowed here.

I bet you are gone, but in case you are still here- do you think the government should be involved with:

Pollution
Roads
schools
water/sewage
laws keeping commerce fair
laws keeping working fair
etc.

The safety nets are what you call entitlements. So if you lose your job, then your house, etc- the you think your fall back should 100% be on the individual? Be that food stamps, Medicaid, unemployment checks, etc. As a society, we should not take care of each other at all- it's 100% up to the individual?

Just curious.

It's not as if we are even close to socialism, as a US society.

We have socialize defense, but since that's spelled out in the Constitution, that's ok. But so is Welfare. Not being specific, that's bad.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
12/13/15 8:23 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver:

The only time in my life that I depended for a short time on a "safety net" was the worst thing I ever did.

It was a pathetically small amount, completely unacceptable, and had so many strings attached to it (requirements I had to do to receive their "benevolence") I instantly became in bondage. It took three days a week of effort to receive the equivalent of half a day's pay. It was stressful, and ruined my physical health very quickly.

I finally voluntarily quit receiving the benefits so I could recapture the time to spend getting a decent job.

The perception of a "safety net" is an illusion middle class people tend to believe in (people who generally do not depend on it). Makes us feel better to think we are taking care of people.

Governmental safety nets promote institutional subjugation.

To the rest of your question, I say, 'Some". But an over-reliance on the federal government to manage our well being is a terrible idea.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/13/15 8:32 a.m.

In reply to SVreX:

So the safety net that we have isn't good enough... Does that mean it should be more and easier? As far as I can tell, it's hard for the reason you found- get people off of it ASAP.

As for the rest- how do you have "some" for any of the other questions?

Some pollution protection? What gets to be allowed?

Some roads? Which ones should be left to go back to nature?

Some schools? Who gets educated and who does not?

Some sewers? Some water? How do you partially do that?

Some commerce rules? Which ones should be scaled back?

Some worker protections? Should we scale back on workplace safety rules, and let people get fired for no reason at all?

People running for office claim they want to do that all the time- but never, ever come up with specifics. I'm 100% for looking at laws to make sure they are effective- scaling back the parts that are useless. But just saying you want "less government" without being specific is pretty useless.

What it is SPECIFICALLY that we let government over manage our lives?

Once we get that, then we can figure out why that law/rule is in place in the first place. All laws/rules have a source/reason. Someone's rights were taken away in one form or another- thus a law to protect them.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
12/13/15 8:58 a.m.

In reply to Toyman01:

I think the federal government has a job to do, but I was focusing on your opinions on the candidates.

I believe that the federal government's job is to provide a level playing field. For the record Teddy was my favorite President and I believe much what he championed is needed today.

In my opinion I don't want the government to do everything I want them to do their job. Not be the enforcement arm for corporations.

EDITED

I wrote a lot but it wasn't civil and I can tell that you too are starting to drift from civility with your statement.

Let's just say we both want very similar things as I used to share the same positions as you. I just got kicked in the teeth hard enough to realize that the method of reaching the desired goals won't be achieved simply by wanting the government out of the way.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
12/13/15 9:22 a.m.
WildScotsRacing wrote: In reply to Ian F: Have you ever been hired by a poor person?

I worked at a comic book store. So yes. Yes I have.

What does that have to do with anything I posted?

EastCoastMojo
EastCoastMojo Mod Squad
12/13/15 9:29 a.m.

Glad to see that we're all still playing nicely. Thanks for keeping this thread on the up and up. Usually once we get a lot of "back and forth" between two posters that's when these threads go downhill with no brakes.

I really believe that if our governmental/socitial problems can be solved, the great minds that frequent this board can figure out how. I also believe that if these great minds can't carry on a civil conversation about it there is little hope for mankind. You guys raise my hopes for a better tomorrow with each page of thoughtful and considerate dialogue.

Carry on.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
12/13/15 10:02 a.m.
Type Q wrote: It is really hard to listen and try to understand when you are angry.

It's my standard reaction to people who are spittle-launching angry to ignore them. There's nothing to be gained from listening to emotionally-driven irrational angrish.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
12/13/15 10:22 a.m.
Flight Service wrote: ....For the record Teddy was my favorite President and I believe much what he championed is needed today....

Of note, and in context to the idea of third party candidates: Teddy was pretty out there for his time. Certainly not the conventional candidate, but he was pretty popular with the people. His party was effectively affraid of him, so they kind of screwed him over by making him Vice President. Funny thing though Mc Kinley was assassinated soon after being elected... Oops!

VERY interesting fellow (wildly ADD by today's standard). Ken Burns series on the Roosevelts is a very good series (I highly suggest at least watching the first few with Teddy).

wbjones
wbjones MegaDork
12/13/15 10:45 a.m.
EastCoastMojo wrote: Glad to see that we're all still playing nicely. Thanks for keeping this thread on the up and up. Usually once we get a lot of "back and forth" between two posters that's when these threads go downhill with no brakes. I really believe that if our governmental/socitial problems can be solved, the great minds that frequent this board can figure out how. I also believe that if these great minds can't carry on a civil conversation about it there is little hope for mankind. You guys raise my hopes for a better tomorrow with each page of thoughtful and considerate dialogue. Carry on.

this ^^^^

thanks guys .. it makes life lots easier when y'all police yourselves ... makes for some very interesting reading ... I can learn lots ... may not agree, but the info from various sources become readily available ... helps make my days a bit easier and better

again, thanks guys

MrJoshua
MrJoshua UltimaDork
12/13/15 11:09 a.m.

It's nice to read thought out rational explanations by people who completely disagree with me politically. Please keep them coming.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
12/13/15 12:40 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to SVreX: So the safety net that we have isn't good enough... Does that mean it should be more and easier? As far as I can tell, it's hard for the reason you found- get people off of it ASAP. As for the rest- how do you have "some" for any of the other questions? Some pollution protection? What gets to be allowed? Some roads? Which ones should be left to go back to nature? Some schools? Who gets educated and who does not? Some sewers? Some water? How do you partially do that? Some commerce rules? Which ones should be scaled back? Some worker protections? Should we scale back on workplace safety rules, and let people get fired for no reason at all? People running for office claim they want to do that all the time- but never, ever come up with specifics. I'm 100% for looking at laws to make sure they are effective- scaling back the parts that are useless. But just saying you want "less government" without being specific is pretty useless. What it is SPECIFICALLY that we let government over manage our lives? Once we get that, then we can figure out why that law/rule is in place in the first place. All laws/rules have a source/reason. Someone's rights were taken away in one form or another- thus a law to protect them.

Your list is a hodge podge of things that should or should not be dealt with at the Federal level. It's a really important distinction.

"Government" is both, but Toyman's comments were specifically regarding the Federal government. Without that separation, it's pretty hard to answer your question.

So, this is what "some" means:

Commerce: it is the Federal government's job to guide interstate commerce, and international relations. "Commerce" as a general statement is not their job, and they need to get their mitts off attempting to regulate local commerce. I think we could lump several things into that pot, such as minimum wage, benefits, employment law, etc.

Sewers: this is not something I know much about, but again, I see it as a local, not Federal issue. Water is sometimes different- aquifers cross state boundaries, and impact interstate relations. Therefore, the Feds sometimes have a role.

Pollution: Almost ways has an impact beyond local. It is generally an interstate issue, or an international one, so the Federal government has a role. But their role should be to guide the relations between the entities, not mandate the solutions which are not always functional at the local levels.

Schools: honestly, I'm torn. My liberal upbringing makes me want to believe that our country would be stronger with quality education for all. Unfortunately, the Federal government is exceptionally good at giving us programs like "No Child Left Behind", and it is clear to me that they are incapable of effecting positive change at the local levels. So, after decades of consideration, I think they should not be involved in education. They can, however, encourage approaches and resources that address issues that impact our National educational well-being. (BTW, I was raised in an area that was rated in the top ten in the nation for education, and currently live and raise my children in one of the worst in the country, so I have some varied experiences).

Roads: some are Federal highways, some are state, some are local. So, my answer "some" is quite adequate. Dirt roads are not so bad.

Worker protections: these are already so out of balance they are pathetic. Minimum wage of $15 per hour may sound like a low bar to people who live in Seattle, but it is way above the median income in some rural areas. A Federal approach to this creates imbalance, and skews economies. Safety is also ridiculous. I have had 3 injuries recently because of PPE's I was required to wear that make my job more difficult. Ron White is unfortunately right on this one- "You can't fix stupid". My jobs are about 30% more expensive because of Federal worker regulations that do not understand how we actually DO the work and get things done. They are promoting the use of illegal workers and "creative" employment practices because the guidelines are so foolish, and so pitiful at recognizing the loopholes they create.

So, bottom line, "Some". The Federal government is much too big to understand the dynamics and nuances of what needs to happen at the local level to encourage growth and healthy environments. Most of what they propagate makes some sense in urban areas, or government projects, or high density populations, but it doesn't make sense to a lot of real people in the real world.

Hope that helps.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron UltimaDork
12/13/15 12:55 p.m.
Toyman01 wrote: I have to wonder, seeing as how we are trillions in debt already, where would he get the money to pay for the programs he thinks we need. It looks like he wants to buy votes with OPM, just like most politicians.

That's really all politicians. All politicians want to spend money. The difference is where they want to spend it and how they want to fund their expenses.

Sanders wants to spend money on social programs more than on war and policing. Wars and a huge prison system cost a lot of public money. I'm not convinced it will cost society more to keep people educated and healthy, and thus able to contribute, than it will to incarcerate them.

He almost strikes me as the candidate who is potentially most fiscally responsible, least willing to spend money on things we can't afford: e.g. his common quote of "if you can't afford to take care of veterans, you can't afford to declare war." That is a fiscally responsible statement, not a pacifist idealistic one.

Yes, he wants to raise the tax base, but that is also the fiscally responsible thing. If you're going to spend money, you have to raise it. If you can't raise it, you shouldn't spend it. The Republican candidates all seem more willing to go to war, and not willing to raise taxes to fund the war effort. I think that will raise the debt much more than sending kids to college.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
12/13/15 1:33 p.m.

I think getting an mba wasn't the smartest move I could have made if I wanted financial security for my family. I should have been a schister who went into politics.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/13/15 2:21 p.m.

In reply to SVreX: Not really, it doesn't help.

I appreciate the attempt at distinctions. But a government of some type has to deal with all of those.

I'm looking for specifics. Not some vague reference that a safety rule (which we don't know what it is) caused you to be injured- which implies that worker safety rules are bad. They are not all bad. Or a vague reference that pollution rules mandate specific solutions- which ones? The ones I deal with don't- just a number under conditions that I have to meet. Just because you find one that is a mandate does not mean they are bad. Maybe the mandate is needed for some reasons. Dunno- you are not specific enough to tell.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
12/13/15 2:39 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver:

Well, you are just going to have to deal with it. I see no advantage to taking this much further- it looks like you are trying to bait an argument.

Suffice it to say that the Federal government has vastly over-reached its role.

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