I have a challege for all you Americans out there.

All these subsidies, taxes, unions, etc. Markets are most efficient when they are not controlled.

US railways were built by the Chinese as well. Only we imported the Chinese instead of the railways...

We weld these things in the USA using all domestic parts and labor but have to use Chinese flanges in order to remain price competitive. The market has driven pricing down. We are selling these pump connectors for the same price we did in 1999.

There is not one factory that has manufactured this molded sphere style rubber expansion joint in the USA since 1988. This is a product that most people will question the price and could care less about quality.

Keith wrote: I'll admit that small machining jobs are far cheaper to do in China. Our brake line flare adapters - nobody in the US can touch the cost on those. We tried. So shift your focus. Look at the added value you can add over simple mass production. That example of the rapid response of the iPhone factory is a good one. Never mind the effect on the workers, it was the attitude of the factory that mattered. They were willing to do what it took to get the job done. It could have been done (at a higher cost) without burning out the workforce. But how many companies would have simply dug in their heels and said "nope, it cannot be done"?

Nowhere in the story did Corning etc say it couldn't be done. The change to a tempered glass faceplate was necessary due to a design flaw which started at the highest level, i.e. Jobs most likely approved the plastic faceplate at first.

What triggered that whole thing was Jobs' megolamania; he didn't want to lose face by launching late.

So it's OK to burn out the workforce instead of pushing the launch date back so the glass faceplates could be integrated in as part of the normal production schedule? What would that have taken, maybe another 12 hours?Nahhh. Who gives a flying berkeley how many drones are affected? After all, there's plenty more to take their place.

Keith wrote: US railways were built by the Chinese as well. Only we imported the Chinese instead of the railways...

Mostly in the West. This side of the country liked to work the Irish to death for nearly no pay.

Curmudgeon wrote:

Keith wrote: I'll admit that small machining jobs are far cheaper to do in China. Our brake line flare adapters - nobody in the US can touch the cost on those. We tried. So shift your focus. Look at the added value you can add over simple mass production. That example of the rapid response of the iPhone factory is a good one. Never mind the effect on the workers, it was the attitude of the factory that mattered. They were willing to do what it took to get the job done. It could have been done (at a higher cost) without burning out the workforce. But how many companies would have simply dug in their heels and said "nope, it cannot be done"?

Nowhere in the story did Corning etc say it couldn't be done. The change to a tempered glass faceplate was necessary due to a design flaw which started at the highest level, i.e. Jobs most likely approved the plastic faceplate at first. What triggered that whole thing was Jobs' megolamania; he didn't want to lose face by launching late. So it's OK to burn out the workforce instead of pushing the launch date back so the glass faceplates could be integrated in as part of the normal production schedule? What would that have taken, maybe another 12 hours?Nahhh. Who gives a flying berkeley how many drones are affected? After all, there's plenty more to take their place.

I think you missed my point. You can either bitch, or you can look for lessons in a case study like this one. Trust me, a lot of manufacturers would rather push back than look for solutions.

MG Bryan wrote:

Keith wrote: US railways were built by the Chinese as well. Only we imported the Chinese instead of the railways...

Mostly in the West. This side of the country liked to work the Irish to death for nearly no pay.

Yessiree, that be the truth. Interesting and ongoing historical dig taking place not far from me: Irish rail worker mass grave

MG Bryan wrote:

Keith wrote: US railways were built by the Chinese as well. Only we imported the Chinese instead of the railways...

Mostly in the West. This side of the country liked to work the Irish to death for nearly no pay.

There's even a story about two railway tycoons with a friendly rivalry that had an Irish vs Chinese railway laying race to see whose employees were the fastest. Well, maybe the rivalry wasn't too friendly to the workers...

ddavidv wrote:

MG Bryan wrote:

Keith wrote: US railways were built by the Chinese as well. Only we imported the Chinese instead of the railways...

Mostly in the West. This side of the country liked to work the Irish to death for nearly no pay.

Yessiree, that be the truth. Interesting and ongoing historical dig taking place not far from me: Irish rail worker mass grave

Supposedly a few branches of the ol' family tree end with the railroads. I struggle to understand how a person could sleep at night whilst they work other human beings like livestock, but that's all a story for another day I guess.

Taiden wrote: All these subsidies, taxes, unions, etc. Markets are most efficient when they are not controlled.

Commerce works better when its not controlled...industry does not.

Try this: name one industry that flourished when deregulation occurred...

Aha! after reading this, I picked up the bowl on my desk and read "Made in USA" right on the bottom! I'm stopping while I'm ahead...

Nah I can't stop, I'm on a roll!- Remote control for cable- Made in Indonesia, Spoon in the bowl- China. Dang. I crapped out. Keyboard and mouse- China. Tape- USA. Things are looking up! Stapler- China. Crap.

Keith wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote:

Keith wrote: I'll admit that small machining jobs are far cheaper to do in China. Our brake line flare adapters - nobody in the US can touch the cost on those. We tried. So shift your focus. Look at the added value you can add over simple mass production. That example of the rapid response of the iPhone factory is a good one. Never mind the effect on the workers, it was the attitude of the factory that mattered. They were willing to do what it took to get the job done. It could have been done (at a higher cost) without burning out the workforce. But how many companies would have simply dug in their heels and said "nope, it cannot be done"?

Nowhere in the story did Corning etc say it couldn't be done. The change to a tempered glass faceplate was necessary due to a design flaw which started at the highest level, i.e. Jobs most likely approved the plastic faceplate at first. What triggered that whole thing was Jobs' megolamania; he didn't want to lose face by launching late. So it's OK to burn out the workforce instead of pushing the launch date back so the glass faceplates could be integrated in as part of the normal production schedule? What would that have taken, maybe another 12 hours?Nahhh. Who gives a flying berkeley how many drones are affected? After all, there's plenty more to take their place.

I think you missed my point. You can either bitch, or you can look for lessons in a case study like this one. Trust me, a lot of manufacturers would rather push back than look for solutions.

I didn't miss it at all. But I think you missed mine.

You are correct, there are solutions if you look for them. The sentence that got me was 'Never mind the effect on the workers, it was the attitude of the factory that counted'.

As in 'berkeley the drones. If they drop dead it's not our problem, we replace them with other drones. We got a schedule to keep'. That's the attitude that led to dead railway workers like the ones noted in ddavid's post.

It's also the same attitude which led the railway tycoons to not put airbrakes on the railcars because it was cheaper to pay some goob to turn the handbrake wheel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brakeman Oh foo, brakeman got killed? Hire another one.

I'm not really in favor of unions, but in some instances I'd make an exception and this is one of those instances.

It's interesting to have one thread saying how great HF is, then get a buy USA tread.....

MG Bryan wrote: struggle to understand how a person could sleep at night whilst they work other human beings like livestock, but that's all a story for another day I guess.

Looking back through the history of civilization, there are only a handful of times/places where human beings where not treated like livestock. We really should count ourselves lucky.

Curmudgeon wrote:

Keith wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote:

Keith wrote: I'll admit that small machining jobs are far cheaper to do in China. Our brake line flare adapters - nobody in the US can touch the cost on those. We tried. So shift your focus. Look at the added value you can add over simple mass production. That example of the rapid response of the iPhone factory is a good one. Never mind the effect on the workers, it was the attitude of the factory that mattered. They were willing to do what it took to get the job done. It could have been done (at a higher cost) without burning out the workforce. But how many companies would have simply dug in their heels and said "nope, it cannot be done"?

Nowhere in the story did Corning etc say it couldn't be done. The change to a tempered glass faceplate was necessary due to a design flaw which started at the highest level, i.e. Jobs most likely approved the plastic faceplate at first. What triggered that whole thing was Jobs' megolamania; he didn't want to lose face by launching late. So it's OK to burn out the workforce instead of pushing the launch date back so the glass faceplates could be integrated in as part of the normal production schedule? What would that have taken, maybe another 12 hours?Nahhh. Who gives a flying berkeley how many drones are affected? After all, there's plenty more to take their place.

I think you missed my point. You can either bitch, or you can look for lessons in a case study like this one. Trust me, a lot of manufacturers would rather push back than look for solutions.

I didn't miss it at all. But I think you missed mine. You are correct, there are solutions if you look for them. The sentence that got me was 'Never mind the effect on the workers, it was the attitude of the factory that counted'. As in 'berkeley the drones. If they drop dead it's not our problem, we replace them with other drones. We got a schedule to keep'. That's the attitude that led to dead railway workers like the ones noted in ddavid's post. It's also the same attitude which led the railway tycoons to not put airbrakes on the railcars because it was cheaper to pay some goob to turn the handbrake wheel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brakeman Oh foo, brakeman got killed? Hire another one. I'm not really in favor of unions, but in some instances I'd make an exception and this is one of those instances.

What I meant by that sentence was "disregard this part of the story, what I'm focusing on is the can-do approach of the company". I'm sorry that my wording wasn't clear - you have to read the entire paragraph. It could have been done (at a higher cost) without burning out the workforce. I was trying to avoid the perception that I thought it was okay to make workers do 18 hour shifts and suggest that there was a better way, apparently not effectively.

4cylndrfury wrote:

Taiden wrote: All these subsidies, taxes, unions, etc. Markets are most efficient when they are not controlled.

Commerce works better when its not controlled...industry does not. Try this: name one industry that flourished when deregulation occurred...

In addition to that, the "free market" ideas sound good, but they are influenced by management, too- such as demands of stock holders wanting more profit at the expense of other things. You see how odd upper management leads companies so that they can increase their money- an example is Jac Nasser buying up a bunch of things that appear to make money, sell off assets- all in the interest of "shareholder value" which isn't exactly thinking of supply and demand ideas to make money- it takes the ball off of the actual paying customer.

One final thing about that- ideas like "free market" and "supply and demand" are good on paper. Reasonable theories. But over a long term, how do you expect to sell your product to people when you don't buy what they sell? The point of our market is to sell stuff, where you take a good X, and transform it to a more valuable good Y, thus making money. You make enough money to not just sustain, but buy stuff that you don't need but want.

That's why it's important to consider where the money goes- if enough buy cheap Chinese parts, first, are those workers going to be able to buy your "stuff", and if they can't, and everybody goes for the cheap chinese stuff, who will be left to buy your stuff?

I still lean toward buying the product that best meets all of your needs, regardless of where it's from. Theres no real excuse for buying or making sub-standard products. But one thing to consider, will the people you buy it from be able to get whatever you want to sell (service, product, etc). That doesn't even consider other impacts of making things.

93EXCivic wrote:

T.J. wrote: The leather belt I am wearing right now was made in India. A belt. Made of Leather. India. It is the best belt I have though, but it is only a few months old.

I can't find a belt that last more then a couple months....

I had the same problem, until I found an old solid one piece leather belt, made in Oklahoma, at a Goodwill. It had a crappy looking buckle on it, so I cut it down and used the buckle from my crappy Target belt that lasted 6 months. I've been wearing it for two years or so and it still looks the same as the day I bought it, for $2.

I usually wear a belt that was given to me for my birthday almost 28 years ago You can't see the embossing anymore and it appears to have shrunk over the years (that's the only explanation I can give for why I have to use different holes) but it's not showing any signs of imminent failure. Made in Australia, I have to assume.

16vCorey wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

T.J. wrote: The leather belt I am wearing right now was made in India. A belt. Made of Leather. India. It is the best belt I have though, but it is only a few months old.

I can't find a belt that last more then a couple months....

I had the same problem, until I found an old solid one piece leather belt, made in Oklahoma, at a Goodwill. It had a crappy looking buckle on it, so I cut it down and used the buckle from my crappy Target belt that lasted 6 months. I've been wearing it for two years or so and it still looks the same as the day I bought it, for $2.

Go to art and arts/crafts shows. You can even meet the person who crafts the belt. The one I got at the Ann Arbor Art Fair is over a decade old, and is wearing quite nicely.

There are other places to buy stuff than big box stores.

Most "Great Things" happened because of cheap labor and when I say cheap, I mean life was cheap (people died.)
Pyramids
Transcontinental Railroad
Hoover Dam
New York Sky-scrapper Race
Many, many more

Here's a article that I just came across just last week though it was published back in Oct. It's in regards to bicycle frames (Sunday BMX to be exact) and the reason they are built in Taiwan instead of the US.

http://espn.go.com/action/bmx/blog/_/post/7132211/jim-c-sunday-frame-manufacturing

For those that don't want to read the whole thing I grabbed a couple of paragraphs:

And also, why is Taiwan better suited to build Sunday's frame technology? It's one of the few places in the world that we can have a frame made with the technical features that we need, and with both reasonable volume requirements and realistic pricing. It's a very good match for us right now. We wouldn't be able to make these frames in the US because the minimum requirements on drawing tubing (like Wave or custom tubing) would basically be impossible to meet, and as a result the price would shoot up as well. It's sad to say, but the interest just isn't there in most cases either. The factories that we would need to work with in the US are mostly geared toward aerospace and they tend to have the minimum requirements and fees to match. Taiwan has openly embraced the bicycle in all areas of manufacturing. US-made brands know this as well and some have imported special tubing from Taiwan to build their frames with here.

Would you ever consider manufacturing Sunday frames in the US if the technology to build them was available? Yes, of course, if we could make the frames with the technical features that we need without facing the massive minimums, then we would be open to it for sure. Taiwan is obviously the central hub for the bicycle industry so it is advantageous to build a frame there for that reason. Nearly all of a bike's parts and components are made in Taiwan. Also, to be fair, we have just as many customers outside of America as we do living in the US, and oftentimes the mark-up on US frames is just too much of a hurdle for countries like Australia or Europe. We have to keep all of this in mind. So, in addition to being able to meet our technical demands with manufacturing, Taiwan also has an advantage when it comes to meeting the shipping demands and expectations of our distributors.

Funny--I was just coming in here to bring up bicycles.

When I worked for a big box sporting goods store, the pseudo patriots would always thump their chests and ask "is anything that isn't made in China???"

I'd respond--"only if you want to spend $1000 on your new bike. Bike prices stood still for 20 years and they got produced in China to make up the cost difference."

"oh" (and that would be the end of that)

Interestingly enough, when I worked for another big box store (Decathlon, out of France, who failed in the States but is huge worldwide), the same chest thumpers would ask that question. Decathlon manufactured their own frames in France, Portugal and I think Austria (as of 2006). Only their cheapest stuff was built in China. My frame was made in France.

A lot of patriotism ends at the wallet. Joe Sixpack's patriotism would usually lead him to either a cheap-o Diamondback (China) or entry level Trek (China) because he didn't recognize the Decathlon name--meanwhile they built some great bikes at decent prices. Those bikes now boast that they were designed in America. w00t!!!

My old '84 trek 400 still boasts its USA decal proudly on the seat tube.

As for components, well, not much you can do there--all Taiwan AFAIK. Campagnolo is still made in Italy...

my shampoo is made in the USA.
Halls cough drops from canada.
vitamins made in usa

im winning!

Beer and pizza made in USA.

In reply to Curmudgeon:

your doing it wrong! i prefer my beer made in germany although i can really only get that when i visit