I didn't think any shotgun under 18" was legal. Is this classed different, or am i just wrong?
This is GRM, you could make your own that short if you wanted to.
That's pretty. It's like the Serbu Super Shorty I'm waiting on, but a little bigger.
does that count as an AOW?
The web site says it is not an AOW. I don't see how that is possible. But, the internet could never be wrong.
Dr. Hess wrote: The web site says it is not an AOW. I don't see how that is possible. But, the internet could never be wrong.
captdownshift wrote: This is GRM, you could make your own that short if you wanted to.
Thanks to some weird laws, doing this yourself to a shotgun would create an NFA and require the tax stamp...
It's "creative rules interpretation".
Should be legal AS IS but change the length in any way or the grip and bam... Felon. Hell, the way the BATF is I would not keep that in the same house as another stock that could bolt up in ANY way.
Stupid way to tempt fate. $200 stamp is cheap insurance to have a SBS and then you can have a useful one with any stock configuration you want.
When some smaller companies started building these out of 18" pistol grip "shotguns" I figured the ATF would go back on their determination like they often do for things that so brazenly skirt the rules, but these really do fall outside of the NFA, the ATF seems to give no berkeleys about anything now (see the "SIG brace", it's only a SBR if you shoulder it!) and Mossberg is building them now, so I wouldn't be too concerned. I would recommend you don't get caught with one without a handy ATF letter though.
captdownshift wrote: This is GRM, you could make your own that short if you wanted to.
You could (but only from a gun that has never worn a shoulder stock!) but you would probably spend more buying and shortening a pistol grip 500 (I recall reading $400 for the Mossberg factory SBS parts) than this thing is supposed to sell for ($400).
Osterkraut wrote:captdownshift wrote: This is GRM, you could make your own that short if you wanted to.Thanks to some weird laws, doing this yourself to a shotgun would create an NFA and require the tax stamp...
I don't get it either. I saw a short barreled shotgun on armslist last month and I had the same questions.
Then again, Judges aren't classified as shotguns (I guess technically they have juuust enough rifling in the barrel to not be shotguns?) and there are a lot of short barreled rifles that are classified as "pistols".
Still want me a Mare's Leg.
It's a neat loophole, it's not a shotgun since it has never had a shoulder stock, therefore it cannot be a short barreled shotgun. It's also not an "Any Other Weapon" smooth bore pistol (e.g. Serbu super shorty) because it has a 26+" OAL. So it's just a regular old over the counter gun.
Just goes to show you how idiotic the NFA laws are......you can have response triggers on an AR that fire twice per pull but it'll cost you $12k+ a $200 tax stamp just to buy the registered part that can fire a 3 shot burst.
As fickle as the ATF is, I'd be worried about them randomly changing their mind on a whim. See SD Tactical and all other solvent trap manufacturers for a recent example. Solvent traps were perfectly legal with the ATF's blessing until one day the ATF decides, nah they're illegal now, and we'll consider them suppressors.
In reply to bigdaddylee82:
I feel like the difference here is a "solvent trap" (for the unaware, it's a barrel to oil filter thread adapter, makes a pretty good suppressor if you decide to felon yourself and shoot through it) can easily be construed as a silencer, or at least parts thereof and constructive intent, it never should have been approved in the first place. Whereas this firearm we're talking about is perfectly legal per the letter of the law, it's not parts of a SBS any more than a AR pistol is parts of a SBR.
WOW Really Paul? wrote: Just goes to show you how idiotic the NFA laws are......you can have response triggers on an AR that fire twice per pull but it'll cost you $12k+ a $200 tax stamp just to buy the registered part that can fire a 3 shot burst.
Or you can just buy a $100 bump stock for your AR and shoot bursts of any length you want.
In reply to BrokenYugo:
My point being that the solvent traps were as questionable, rule skirting, creative interpretation of the "law" as the "sawed off" shotguns, of topic in this thread. They were perfectly legal, SD and many others had letters of approval from ATF, no worries, until one day they weren't.
WOW Really Paul? wrote: Just goes to show you how idiotic the NFA laws are......you can have response triggers on an AR that fire twice per pull but it'll cost you $12k+ a $200 tax stamp just to buy the registered part that can fire a 3 shot burst.
MMmm... not quite. The binary trigger group, which I think you're referencing, fires once per finger motion. Once when you pull and once when you release. That is legal. It takes a deliberate motion per round, and there's even a way to fire only one round when in binary mode (flip selector to single while trigger is still pulled)
Someone made a double 1911 a few years back, that did fire two rounds per trigger motion. That's not legal.
In reply to bigdaddylee82:
Right, and my point being that you can interpret a solvent trap either way, per the laws and precedents it can easily be used to make a silencer, it was a joke that they were approved of from the beginning. This thing on the other hand isn't really up to subjective judgement, the NFA says it definitely isn't an NFA item. The ATF's take on these is more confirmation than opinion.
The same applies to other products people have come up with that were definitely NFA items but they lucked out and apparently got some particularly dumb ATF agents to inspect it the first time around. The Akins Accelerator comes to mind, breaks the whole "one pull one round" rule, yet it somehow got through and was promptly recalled when the ATF noticed their error.
In reply to Knurled:
The double 1911 had "two" triggers. Legal.
As for the "solvent trap" that was a load of E36 M3 solely intended to be a makeshift silencer. Wish I bought one when I could have. Although, the first time I heard of it was a legal tax stamped adapter for barrel threads to oil filter. Lastly on the subject of suppressers, the HPA will remove them from the NFA list if it goes through, so who knows what will happen.
Knurled wrote: Then again, Judges aren't classified as shotguns (I guess technically they have juuust enough rifling in the barrel to not be shotguns?)
That's because the ATF felt bad for anyone who bought a Taurus.
Brian wrote: In reply to Knurled: The double 1911 had "two" triggers. Legal.
My head is full of berkeley trying to figure out how that even works. So if you pull only one trigger, the slide racks and it ejects both rounds anyway?
Well, I suppose the thing wasn't exactly designed for practicality. Unlike, say, the original Mare's Leg, which was altered specifically to be more practical (one-handed operation)
ITT: TIL that Von Dutch is responsible for a thing that I totally want that I'd just hang on the wall because it's also totally useless for me. I'd feel silly shooting it normally, I'd feel even sillier shooting it as intended, and there's way too much "you want me to do WHAT?" involved with shooting it as intended. But they look so cool.
In reply to Knurled:
The triggers, as every part of the action, are linked. That is why I put two in quotation marks. The TFB TV channel on YouTube did an amusing and informative video on the gun.
Y'know... that raises a question about the ATF. Ya think they'd seriously give someone a second bite at US vs Miller? Anyone know of a documented military application for a pistol grip-only shotgun in the last 70 years?
In reply to stroker:
Breaching shotgun?
I don't want a silencer to do stealth kills on people, i want one so the dog won't freak out when i shoot raccoons in my garden. But, nope. Plus i want to see if they really go "pssh pssh" like the movies or if it's still kinda loud
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