I miss WFH

SV reX said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

So, "We can fix this, but I'm not gonna tell you how. It's a secret. I don't think you are grown up enough to respect my ideas without an argument, so I'm not gonna tell you"??

No. That is not what I am saying.

I don't think these things are a secret at all. I think they've been shared ad nauseam at this point and that no one here has taken any such ideas and actually attempted to do anything with them to affect substantive change. They have just argued. This is something that would probably involve public policy changes, not just changing the perception or ideas of people here.

If someone here is actually looking to discuss such topics for the sake of putting together a plan that they will then attempt to realize - they should probably start a new thread for that rather than hijacking a thread about coworkers who don't know how to use the toilet.

NY Nick said:

With the direction this is going I can see this being locked by page 5. But here is something I have noticed. There is a lot of hostility towards people that WFH from people that weren't afforded that opportunity. It may be because of job role, company culture or something else but if someone didn't get to WFH it seems like they are of the opinion that WFH'ers are lazy and getting a sweet deal. I truly believe that "you can't have part of someone's life, you have to take the whole thing". That statement applies to jobs too.

My wife is a programmer and shifted to WFH. Even after the office has reopened and going in as an option for her, she greatly prefers to WFH and is probably more productive that way. (Of course, it doesn't help that her company did away with people having assigned, dedicated work stations, and now it's just a floating grab bag.)

I'm a brewer. I have to go in to work. I *like* going in to work. I am glad I have a job that isn't WFH.

Aside from the fact that she can stock the fridge with good lunch and snack options for herself, I do not envy her working from home at all.

If I had to guess, people that prefer to work from home will gravitate toward that. People that prefer to work away from home will gravitate toward that. In 10 years the job market will settle out and there won't be a work-from-home discussion.

I don't see any real advantage to working from home. Personally, I think I would hate to walk from my kitchen to my desk and never leave the house. I don't even do that on my days off. I'm not exactly an extrovert but I'd probably go insane if I was stuck at home all the time.   

Now, if you told me I could load up my computer and work from my RV anywhere in the country, I would absolutely be down for that. I'd probably get fired for lack of work but I'd certainly be interested. 

Toyman! said:

I don't see any real advantage to working from home. Personally, I think I would hate to walk from my kitchen to my desk and never leave the house. I don't even do that on my days off. I'm not exactly an extrovert but I'd probably go insane if I was stuck at home all the time.   

Now, if you told me I could load up my computer and work from my RV anywhere in the country, I would absolutely be down for that. I'd probably get fired for lack of work but I'd certainly be interested. 

 

I think the absolute biggest advantage to WFH is not being tied to a specific geographic location. 

From an employer standpoint it also opens you to a larger talent pool, or higher grade talent pool (i.e. high achieving employees that require WFH flexibility)

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:

I was not sure what this thread was about, but since I am here, I really enjoy working from home, and I am astonished at how many men piss on toilet seats. I travel a lot and it seems like some kind of passive aggressive behavior or something.  I would assume they do not do it at home in their own space but in a restaurant or airport a switch gets tripped in their brain. I would like to cut each and every one of their dinks off with garden shears.

I don't get it and I hate going into public restrooms due to this behavior. Especially seeing how messy even the standing urinals are.

I've returned to work 3 days a week and prior to COVID and post COVID, people at work haven't made a huge mess of the restroom. 

Toyman! said:

Duke said:

Apexcarver said:

In reply to Toyman! :

Unless you work for yourself, not since 2018. They closed that deduction 

Plus, most folks don't have a dedicated home office, they have their dining room table, or a desk in a spare bedroom.

 

Everyone I know that is WFH have dedicated offices set up. Most are in spare bedrooms or the FROG.

 

I didn't have a dedicated office for the place I WFH'd for until recently, and it was the same for most of my coworkers. You need to be really careful about claiming WFH-related tax breaks too, the tax authorities hyper-scrutinize those so if you use them, you'd better dot your Is, cross your Ts, and don't be surprised if you get audited. With no dedicated WFH resources I wouldn't have dreamed of trying that.

The company was actually pretty skeptical of remote work with none happening pre-pandemic, and already had sent up some ill-received return-to-office trial balloons over the last year or so. I wouldn't be surprised if my expressed preference for remote work was a factor in me getting the axe, but it was one of the few positives of the job to me. Since the job was a constant fast-paced rush of talking on a headset and ninja-typing while looking at multiple monitors and barely being able to squeeze in interactions with coworkers unless you were in a meeting or training session, I can't imagine that increasing the opportunity for IRL interruptions would've made it any easier. I suspect it may not have been so fast-paced in the pre-WFH era, there were stories of a manager's dog running around the office causing havoc and people playing with the dog - in the WFH era of people finding creative ways to sneak in unpaid overtime just to keep up with their workload, it seems like that dog would've been quickly taken out behind the shed.

Streetwiseguy said:

I'm not sure how a blue collar backhoe operator gets to work from home, therby becoming privileged.

I'm also not sure when "privileged" became a dirty word when describing someone who went to school, got an education, worked five days a week, and now has more cool stuff than somebody else...Now, Thurston Howell the third, well...

This ^

Wondering when an "apprentice tool loan forgiveness" will happen. 

Probably never, trades are for the stupid kids anyway.

ProDarwin said:

I think the absolute biggest advantage to WFH is not being tied to a specific geographic location. 

To me as a software engineer the biggest advantage to WFH is that I don't have to deal with the commute traffic.  It's not even the time, it's mostly the frustration/stress.

Next on the list are the fact that at home I have an office.  I can close the door, open the window, and listen to my tunes on my stereo.  Our office was one of the new-style "open plan" designs -- basically a sea of desks across the floor.  I don't understand why anyone likes those (other than the beancounters who like the fact that it's cheap).  My desk was next to a conference room, so frequently I had to get up and close the door of that room so that I didn't have to listen to the noise of someone else's meeting.  Even without the conference room it's still noisy and bustling, lots of people moving around, lots of distractions.

I can see the value for others in not being tied to a specific location, but my kids are in local schools so it's not like we're going to move across the country on a whim.

My employer was talking about pushing "hybrid" for a while.  Unsurprisingly it wasn't universally well-received, so instead they elected to not renew the lease on some of the floor space.  Now they don't have enough desks for everyone, so people who don't go in regularly have to hot desk.  Fine by me -- I haven't worked an entire day in the office since before the pandemic and I'm perfectly happy to keep it that way.

As for the "privilege" question, that word has become heavily loaded with implications of guilt-for-being-better-off, and I don't think it's the right one to use here.  Rather I would say that job types have different tradeoffs.  WFH is a perk of "knowledge work" jobs for some people (especially the introverts like myself), but for others it's a nightmare because they never see anyone.  Look back at posts from the pandemic when it was mandatory and you'll find many people complaining about being stuck in the house all day with no one to talk to.  Some jobs let you spend a lot of time outdoors, some jobs let you meet new people every day, some jobs provide opportunities for a lot of international travel -- all of these are up sides to some people, down sides to other.  "Knowledge work" lets you WFH, which can either be a positive or negative attribute just like those others.

One reason I hope work from home to be come more prevalent, which has already been touched on somewhat, is that it opens up the number of companies I could work for.  I'm in a somewhat rare line work and it would be great if I could have options beyond just a few companies in my city to work for if I wanted.  It really depends what's going on day to day if work from home works for me, but over the course of the last year, I could probably have a total of a week's time that I really needed to be in the office.  If it isn't hands on activity the need just isn't really there.

I felt that having a job that I didn't like was made easier to deal with by working from home.  Not being surrounded by the issues and just having a quiet area to keep my focus on my work really helped.  It made 2020 so much easier to deal with and it just felt normal; get up, go downstairs and fire up the laptop, get coffee going and start in on whatever was waiting for me from the night before.  Why do I need to drive across town to look at the same laptop at a different desk?  After putting in my 8 hours I was free to do whatever and I was already home.  It was nice.  

I don't really understand the negativity in this thread.  But you know, whatever, that's not my problem to solve.

I want to work from home but whenever I do online training courses at home in lieu of work, I find myself working on other projects or just being bored. I enjoy working with people in the office, collaborating on things, and having some separation. 

All that being said, I still desire to work from home. I'm just as productive, if not more, I just think being able to shout across the office to get a question answered is much easier than waiting for someone to respond in Slack. 

My brother-in-law worked at big bank in Chicago.  At Covid a lot of younger workers packed up and went to other parts of the country - some in their parent's basement banking their salary.  

Two years later they're called back 1-2 days a week.  Now what? Some quit the position. 

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

ProDarwin said:

I think the absolute biggest advantage to WFH is not being tied to a specific geographic location. 

To me as a software engineer the biggest advantage to WFH is that I don't have to deal with the commute traffic.  It's not even the time, it's mostly the frustration/stress.

Next on the list are the fact that at home I have an office.  I can close the door, open the window, and listen to my tunes on my stereo.  

Both fair points, but highly job/location specific.  I have very little traffic to deal with.  I also have an office at work where I can do those things.   But I don't think anyone on site has location flexibility.  I have a son in school too, but it would be cool to say "oh we're going to spend the summer in city X and I'll work remotely from there".  Or, once he is out of the house, live here for 3 months, then there for 3 months, etc.  Or, I want to live in a new city, but I would like to keep my job.

The parallels between the "open office for collaboration" argument and the "return to office for collaboration" argument are very strong.  And we know how the first one worked out.  Its almost universally hated and not successful (although still widely used).  We'll see how the latter turns out.

ProDarwin said:

The parallels between the "open office for collaboration" argument and the "return to office for collaboration" argument are very strong.  And we know how the first one worked out.  Its almost universally hated and not successful (although still widely used).  We'll see how the latter turns out.

quoted for truth, not many people like the whole open office concept. The best part of open office is everyone wearing headphones as a please don't bother me sign and the library like quietness that usually ensues from the lack of collaboration becuase no one wants to be the person talking in the middle of a room of 50 people.

NY Nick said:

My sister is a C-level executive at a large company, she flies on private jets all over the world, has a seemingly awesome compensation package, has a private secretary, etc. etc. It is easy to want all of that. She also has a strictly managed diet and exercise program, mandated personal coaches, late hours almost every day (including calls with SE Asia at 10 pm or later), massive pressure from other high ranking narcissists.

I don't understand the diet and exercise thing.  Mandated coaches?  Is that because she's expected (or expects of herself) to have a certain physical appearance?

I get the rest of it though, for sure.  C-suite at many places is a life style.  No thanks.

pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

One reason I hope work from home to be come more prevalent, which has already been touched on somewhat, is that it opens up the number of companies I could work for.  I'm in a somewhat rare line work and it would be great if I could have options beyond just a few companies in my city to work for if I wanted.  It really depends what's going on day to day if work from home works for me, but over the course of the last year, I could probably have a total of a week's time that I really needed to be in the office.  If it isn't hands on activity the need just isn't really there.

I'll piggy back onto this and say that it's also great for working couples. It means that if one person is presented with an opportunity that would require relocating, the other can just... move with them. There is not the question of "whose career do we prioritize?" If you move, you don't *both* need to find new jobs.

Toyman! said:

Duke said:

Apexcarver said:

In reply to Toyman! :

Unless you work for yourself, not since 2018. They closed that deduction 

Plus, most folks don't have a dedicated home office, they have their dining room table, or a desk in a spare bedroom.

Everyone I know that is WFH have dedicated offices set up. Most are in spare bedrooms or the FROG.

I'm not familiar with FROG.

DW worked from home a day a week prior to COVID, 100% during the pandemic, and then back to 2 days a week in 2022.  Our study area has a 2-8x7-0 solid core door for a desk.  She used half of that as her workspace.

I used a 42" student study desk in DD#1's old bedroom.

Neither of these qualifies as a "dedicated office".

KyAllroad said:

In reply to Duke :

And WFH employees don't have to pay for commuting costs (a much larger amount) or work clothes or the time commuting, etc.

All of which are considered the standard cost of having a job, and vary depending upon the employee's own choices of where to live, what type of job to have, etc.

I remain unconvinced.

If someone deserves extra pay because they have commuting costs (typically the employee's responsibility), does someone who lives farther away deserve more pay than someone who lives close to work?

Duke said:

Toyman! said:

Duke said:

Apexcarver said:

In reply to Toyman! :

Unless you work for yourself, not since 2018. They closed that deduction 

Plus, most folks don't have a dedicated home office, they have their dining room table, or a desk in a spare bedroom.

Everyone I know that is WFH have dedicated offices set up. Most are in spare bedrooms or the FROG.

I'm not familiar with FROG.

FROG is a Charleston, SC region term which means finished room over garage. 

In reply to mfennell :

I can't say if it's mandated or self imposed but I do know it started after the jump from Exec VP to C level. Lots of expectations for a woman that is in charge of marketing and making TV appearances. That's my observation not her statement. 

Every ten work days I WFH 7 days, stop by the office 1 day and get out to visit a project site 2 days.

Pre-pandemic I used to leave the house 6:45 to arrive at work around 7:30, depart around 5:15 to arrive home around 6:30 (traffic is much worse at this time).

I routinely work from 7-6 now. It is still a win for me because I don't spend forty hours per month commuting and my net amount of time committed to work is reduced. 

I also hate "open office" for the same reasons stated above. My firm downsized our space with capacity for about 50% of staff at any given time and offer hot desks. I feel far less productive in that environment.

The days spent at jobsites are (mostly) great for my metal health.  

GameboyRMH said:

Toyman! said:

Duke said:

Apexcarver said:

In reply to Toyman! :

Unless you work for yourself, not since 2018. They closed that deduction 

Plus, most folks don't have a dedicated home office, they have their dining room table, or a desk in a spare bedroom.

 

Everyone I know that is WFH have dedicated offices set up. Most are in spare bedrooms or the FROG.

 

I didn't have a dedicated office for the place I WFH'd for until recently, and it was the same for most of my coworkers. You need to be really careful about claiming WFH-related tax breaks too, the tax authorities hyper-scrutinize those so if you use them, you'd better dot your Is, cross your Ts, and don't be surprised if you get audited. With no dedicated WFH resources I wouldn't have dreamed of trying that.

The company was actually pretty skeptical of remote work with none happening pre-pandemic, and already had sent up some ill-received return-to-office trial balloons over the last year or so. I wouldn't be surprised if my expressed preference for remote work was a factor in me getting the axe, but it was one of the few positives of the job to me. Since the job was a constant fast-paced rush of talking on a headset and ninja-typing while looking at multiple monitors and barely being able to squeeze in interactions with coworkers unless you were in a meeting or training session, I can't imagine that increasing the opportunity for IRL interruptions would've made it any easier. I suspect it may not have been so fast-paced in the pre-WFH era, there were stories of a manager's dog running around the office causing havoc and people playing with the dog - in the WFH era of people finding creative ways to sneak in unpaid overtime just to keep up with their workload, it seems like that dog would've been quickly taken out behind the shed.

This.

When I spoke to my CPA about it, "dedicated office" means literally that. No clothes/linen storage in the closet of the spare room you are using, not your guitars or your sim rig (like mine both have) and the deduction was 10% or less if the percentage of the sq ft used was less than 10% of the sq ft of the house. She also said it raises HUGE red flags when you file your taxes that can trigger an audit. 

In the end, she did a quick comparison and I think it still evened out to around the standard deduction and I don't have to spend a bunch of time maintaining a bunch of utility bills and mortgage statements to go with my taxes. 

Plus, we already worked from home 2-3 days per week. So I already had a desk, dual monitors, etc, when we went WFH full-time. 

OHSCrifle said:

Duke said:

Toyman! said:

Duke said:

Apexcarver said:

In reply to Toyman! :

Unless you work for yourself, not since 2018. They closed that deduction 

Plus, most folks don't have a dedicated home office, they have their dining room table, or a desk in a spare bedroom.

Everyone I know that is WFH have dedicated offices set up. Most are in spare bedrooms or the FROG.

I'm not familiar with FROG.

FROG is a Charleston, SC region term which means finished room over garage. 

Interesting. I had no idea that was a local acronym.  

ProDarwin said:

Toyman! said:

I don't see any real advantage to working from home. Personally, I think I would hate to walk from my kitchen to my desk and never leave the house. I don't even do that on my days off. I'm not exactly an extrovert but I'd probably go insane if I was stuck at home all the time.   

Now, if you told me I could load up my computer and work from my RV anywhere in the country, I would absolutely be down for that. I'd probably get fired for lack of work but I'd certainly be interested. 

 

I think the absolute biggest advantage to WFH is not being tied to a specific geographic location. 

From an employer standpoint it also opens you to a larger talent pool, or higher grade talent pool (i.e. high achieving employees that require WFH flexibility)

The biggest advantage to me is not commuting and the hours in the car.  Of course, I now drive even more to work at a client site, but at least I get reimbursed for those travel costs.  And when I'm there, I'm usually fairly close to the site, to the "commute" is short (I can't afford to live near any of our current offices). 

I don't see the need to try claiming any sort of tax deduction for my WFH set-up.  I have it as much for my own convenience as anything else.

Our office generally doesn't have assigned seats anymore, other than for a handful of employees that prefer working in the office. 

For me, most of the projects I work on are with colleagues in other offices, so whether I'm in the office or sitting at my desk at home doesn't make any difference to how I do my job - other than being able to use the computer speakers at home vs. a headset at the office for Teams meetings.   Oh... and if I need to print something, I have to walk a lot farther to get the print if I'm in the office, vs. at home where my printer is right behind my monitors. 

When I was going into the office in recent times before the current on-site assignment started, I would generally do the commute later in the morning.  I'd work for a few hours at home, then drive to the office after rush-hour.  I also timed these trips on days when I had something to do after work near the office, so I would usually work late since we would usually meet after 6pm.

WFH is good for some and less so or impossible for others. But just because many fall into the latter group, doesn't mean WFH in inherently bad. My take is it gets some people off the road when they don't need to be, thus making it better for those who DO need to be on the road. 

I have noticed a trend of WFH people grabbing a cheap office down the road so work stays at work, and there is a work/home break.  Around here you can get an office for $400 or so a month, with a shared kitchen, bath, and meeting room, down the hall. Seems like a good compromise to me.

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

ProDarwin said:

I think the absolute biggest advantage to WFH is not being tied to a specific geographic location. 

The biggest advantage to me is not commuting and the hours in the car. 

Isn't that (part of) the same thing?

RE: Office type - I think it depends on personality type.  For me, WFH absolutely requires a dedicated space.  I can share my office with my gaming computer, but I can't put it in my bedroom/kitchen/etc.  I'm renting an apt. shortly and have paid for an extra bedroom for this reason.