I appreciate you unlocking it, there are some really interesting posts here.
I'd love to see the opposite type of thread and hear why people are religious, but it's not up to me to start it. I'd hope it could be similar, as in tell us why YOU are, not why it's 'the right way'
In reply to Steve_Jones :
I think people have been posting that in this thread, which is what is making it so interesting to have a discussion in.
I know this will come out wrong, but I feel compelled to respond to a notion that seems to pop up frequently in this thread, and random other threads concerning religion.
Non-believers decry the action of Evangelical Christians working to bring people to Christ and seem to think that such behavior is out of line. However, we must accept God on his terms, not ours. Okay, God. I'll believe if I can do this, this, and this? It just doesn't work that way.
The Great Commission is an integral part of the Christian faith. "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." --Matthew 4:19
We are not to pick and choose those parts of the Gospel that suit us and ignore those that do not. We are not to re-write the immutable Word of God and make it politically correct.
“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” --Romans 12:2
I hope that helps to clarify the issue.
In reply to 1988RedT2 :
So it's part of being a Christian to try to bring people to Christ?
Why are some so aggressive about it and why do some seem not to care or try?
Also, I'm glad this thread is back on.
Its a healthy discussion with multiple pov and beliefs. How it should be.
I just wanted to note that I am super impressed, and very encouraged to see such a discussion last so long, with such reasonable discussion (with a minor obvious exception).
It gives me hope.
We all NEED reasonable discussions.
To add my part to the discussion: I had some exposure to Christian light (Lutheran) when I was young. My experience was just boredom (it was never pushed on me). In general though, I am not a "religious" person in any way. By that I mean, I don't have any particular hero's, any sports teams I am fanatic about, or anything in general I could say I am solidly a die hard member of.
I don't disparage religion in general, I can see many very useful outcomes of it. I am also aware of the many bad outcomes (generally more the people than that religion of course). I think it for many people, they need some form of religion, and that can go good or bad depending on what kind of person they are and it can get pretty weird depending on what "religion" they latch onto (e.g. veganism or the Denver Broncos). It's just not for me.
I am even entirely open to this statement (which was alluded to much earlier), although not exactly in the way a religious person would interpret it:
"When science finally crests over the hill of knowledge, they will find religion was there the entire time"
In reply to yupididit :
Because different people are different. Simplistic? Yes, but still true. In any group you will find a diverse range of conviction, drive, skill sets, personality types, etc. We can put lots of different labels on people, but people are still people, under the label.
Edit to clarify another point: the goal is to bring people information, what people choose to do with that information is up to them, and not the responsibility of the person conveying the information.
In reply to 1988RedT2 :
I understand the Great Commission.
The problem comes in when Christians expect others to accept their evangelizing. A Christian may be required to accept their God on their God's terms, but no one else is required to in any way.
As someone said above, proper evangelizing should be by silent example. Of course you can answer questions and provide guidance, but that needs to be initiated by the other person, NOT the evangelist.
Otherwise you are asking us to accept your God's terms, not our own. No matter how strongly you may feel you are obligated, no one else is.
In reply to yupididit :
Q#1: Emphatically, yes!
Q#2: People are different. Some are more subtle than others. In its essence, it should be an invitation, nothing forceful or harassing.
As different are the messengers, so too are the receivers of that message different. Some will listen and consider, some will politely reject it, whilst others--sensing, even knowing, that they are indeed on the wrong path-- will react with guilty anger.
1988RedT2 said:Non-believers decry the action of Evangelical Christians working to bring people to Christ and seem to think that such behavior is out of line. However, we must accept God on his terms, not ours. Okay, God. I'll believe if I can do this, this, and this? It just doesn't work that way.
Okay. And what behaviors can you model that are most likely to bring people to Christ?
These sorts of statements are often used to defend the behavior of overt proselytizing, which often comes packaged with statements telling people what they should believe, and how they're "wrong" and "damned" if they don't. The sorts of arguments that non Christians often find alienating and insulting.
If those behaviors drive people away from the Christian faith, aren't they then anti-Christian? Are you then not actually acting as a fisher of men and instead behaving *counter* to Great Commission? I'd say such behaviors are more about making the person engaging them feel good about going through the motions, than actually about sharing the faith.
TheRev has been a really cool dude. He's offered a nifty message and never told me or anyone that we're "wrong" or that we need to be "saved". But I look at his message and think that this is a guy I'd happily sit down and talk religion with. If he invited me to a church service, I'd consider taking him up on it.
Precisely because he does not feel the need to actively proselytize, I'd say he has better opportunity to make other view his faith more positively and even be more likely to convert them.
Is it not possible that you have let your preconceived notions of what it means to spread the Gospel blind you to actually following God on his terms, and not your own? Are you being a living example of your faith to show why it's the Truth? Or are you ticking a box you've been told you have to?
yupididit said:In reply to 1988RedT2 :
So it's part of being a Christian to try to bring people to Christ?
Why are some so aggressive about it and why do some seem not to care or try?
Being aggressive does not work. Not being aggressive makes it seem like they are not caring or trying.
Duke said:In reply to 1988RedT2 :
As someone said above, proper evangelizing should be by silent example.
I very much agree with your statement. I would also add that I am annoyed as much as the next guy at the appearance of Jehova's Witnesses on my doorstep. But I do not feel that a Christian should feel that he may never be the first to bring up the subject of his faith. It really is all about presentation, and reading your audience.
1988RedT2 said:As different are the messengers, so too are the receivers of that message different. Some will listen and consider, some will politely reject it, whilst others--sensing, even knowing, that they are indeed on the wrong path-- will react with guilty anger.
And sometimes anger at the notion that someone else feels entitled to interfere with our time, our homes, our thoughts, our lives. Sometimes it's just annoyance at not being able to have a conversation with someone without it turning to an outreach mission.
Salesmen are universally tedious when you either don't trust them or are just not interested in what they're selling. And that's often what it feels like to be on the receiving end of someone's efforts.
To add to my last thought, I'd wager your paycheck or mine that the sense of irritation is a large factor in many people's avoidance of religion.
In reply to Beer Baron :
I certainly hope you haven't taken anything I've said here as evangelizing!
Hoping someone else can pick up the slack and answer some of your questions. I need to see if this water heater has finished draining yet. I got the upper element out and it looks like a cavern in there, with all kinds of translucent white mineral formations. No wonder it's draining so slowly!
Coffee break is over!
1988RedT2 said:Duke said:In reply to 1988RedT2 :
As someone said above, proper evangelizing should be by silent example.
I very much agree with your statement. I would also add that I am annoyed as much as the next guy at the appearance of Jehova's Witnesses on my doorstep. But I do not feel that a Christian should feel that he may never be the first to bring up the subject of his faith. It really is all about presentation, and reading your audience.
I think there is a big difference between bringing up YOUR faith, and bringing up someone ELSE'S faith or lack thereof.
It is most often not the expression of how one's belief fulfills something in them that bothers others, it's the judgement - overt or implied - on someone else not having that faith.
I like to work out. I like lifting weights. I think more people would benefit from the practice. I will share when I hit first deadlifted 2x my body weight or hit the 1,000lbs club. I don't tell people I think less of them for not lifting or working out. I don't find ways to insert talking about my workouts into every conversation to try to get other people to work out too.
1988RedT2 said:In reply to Beer Baron :
I certainly hope you haven't taken anything I've said here as evangelizing!
I don't think particularly in this thread. But there was some of that in the thread that got locked. Which then turned to several people saying to others in that thread, "Dude, we get it. You want people to be Christian so they don't go to hell. Message received. Now chill," and then 'Great Commission!' was brought out in defense of actions that people found judgemental and offputting.
Javelin said:In reply to Steve_Jones :
I think people have been posting that in this thread, which is what is making it so interesting to have a discussion in.
Thanks for taking care of that. I typically don't look at the internet on the weekends, so I was surprised to see someone being so antagonistic and purposefully trying to misrepresent the purpose of the thread for their own agenda.
There has been a ton of great insight here. And TheRev, has been super cool with his insight, thought process, etc.
Well done chaps.
I've been reading along and stayed out so far. Now the question has been asked I'll add my thoughts. Raised religious, still religious. Based on my location, y'all can make a pretty safe bet, but I'll not get too specific here. If anyone has questions I'd be happy to answer a PM.
Regarding my upbringing, I had religion from both sides of the family. on occasion it was rather overbearing. Being a rebellious kid I tended to go my own way; I did not go out preaching for the usual two years, or at all. In my early adult years I stopped attending for months at a time and would only go if invited by a friend. This was the normal for several years. I never felt ostracized by my family or the community in general. I did see others have family issues for similar behavior.
I started back into it under unusual circumstances. I was rooming with my metal band and the drummer invited me to go with him.
Anyway, the short version is this: When I try to follow the tenets, things just seem to go my way. I'm not perfect, and to be honest I could put in a lot more effort. And while there are myriad questions I don't have the answers for, what I do know is that if I do as I've been taught there isn't anything im missing out on, and at the end of my days I'll have a clear conscience, knowing I did the best I could do. That's enough for me.
As far as the evangelism, missionary work, and general preaching, I'd just recommend doing what I do when sales folks knock on my door. "Hey I hate to interrupt, but I don't want to waste your time. I'm not buying. Good luck and have a nice day." I call the approach "brisk, but friendly"
Glad the thread is back. The conversation has been enlightening. I happen to teach an introduction to theology class on Mondays to new staff members at the church I used to work at (figured I'd still help here and there when they need it). Today, the conversation came up about why people choose not to believe in the particular message of Christianity, and it was helpful to share some of the things I've heard here (no identifying details or personal details were shared in any way - just general 'themes'). As we've all seen over these 10 pages of conversation, the reasons are varied and complex, and occassionally heart-wrenching.
The question arose above about the Great Commission that plays prominently in Christianity. My two-cents on the matter, as a practicing Christian, is that we live in a culture that has, by and large, heard the basics of our "story." That was not true in Jesus' day, and is not true in some parts of the world today. But here, it seems most everyone has some exposure to the fundamental claims of Christianity. So it's usually not helpful to make it one's mission to share the story with everyone whether they want to hear it or not. What I find helpful instead is simply to live out my faith in full view of my neighbors as best I can. If anyone feels compelled to ask why I live this way, then I have an opportunity to speak. Otherwise, speaking before being asked usually just pushes people away because, in a culture dominated by sales-pitches, it just feels like yet another pitch. I take to heart the words of St Francis of Asisi, "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary." Seems to work for me. But as always, YMMV.
Regardless, fun conversation! Would be better over beers in the Daytona infield at the next 24hrs. I need to get over there one day when my kids are old enough. I had some of the best conversations over beers and brats after a full day on track. I guess everyone was tired enough to let their gaurd down and just have a good chat :-)
Regarding sharing the Gospel.....
I think this thread is proof of miracles. I mean who thought Steve_Jones could be active in a thread and not once come across as an shiny happy person?
In reply to Stampie :
When I saw who started this thread, I didn't think I'd even get a chance to post my experience on page one by the time I finished typing it. I'm very glad to see how this thread has come along.
It's actually something I've wanted to do, I was just always afraid it would end badly. I'm a little surprised at some people who have NOT posted here, because I'd really appreciate their input knowing bits about their faith, but having TheRev pop in has been very enlightening.
Just to throw people that may not know for a loop, the Rev in my username is because I'm am ordained minister. Universal ministries, internet "preacher", but I have been since I turned 18 years old. It started out as a very mean spirited joke, but just evolved into a nickname. I did perform my first wedding a couple years back, for non practicing friends of very strict Catholic upbringing, and their parents were pleasantly surprised at the results.
In reply to RevRico :
Ha! I wondered where your username came from since it was similar to my own. I guess I actually need to change mine as I'm no longer a "reverend" per se.
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