I'll explain this "asbestos" I can...

Have you ever noticed that sometimes the super-dangerous specialty work that everyone says will kill you is actually sometimes a nothingburger?  My ex had her amalgam fillings removed because a fear of mercury poisoning, and we had to pay through the nose for a super-special dental surgeon who ended up using a drill and a little vacuum.  Seems like anyone could have done that.    When I was younger, I had a gas tank leak and wanted it brazed, and of course you had to find someone who would take the monumental risk.  They just filled it with water and brazed it.

I'm hoping that asbestos removal is a similar thing.

I know there are all kinds of legal parts to this, but I want to focus on the moral/safety parts.  If it's something I can learn to do safely, I might go forth and try.

Long story longer:  The theater used to have an old steam boiler for heat.  When it was added, they ran several manifolds and some big sch80 pipe through the room that used to be the dressing rooms.  Some of them run behind a huge soffit along the wall, and some just run right through the room at about shoulder height.  Now that the old steam boiler is gone, I want to reclaim that room.  A few of the pipes (added in the 80s) had fiberglass insulation which was verified by an engineer, and they came out easily.  The ones behind the soffit were likely installed in 1953 when the place was built, and they have a brand name stamp on it that a google search turned up is definitely asbestos.

Does anyone know the actual proper procedure for removing it?  I would hate to pay thousands of dollars to have it removed only to have a guy named Trent show up with a pocket knife and a shop vac.

It's my off season hustle but please keep it on the down low.

My BIL worked for an asbestos removal company. Full body coverage with an external air hose under positive pressure.

Either leave the pipes alone or hire someone.

Legally, you will be in a world of E36 M3 if you touch them, or someone in the future figures out you touched them, or the garbage bag pops open at the dump and a municipal employee is exposed to the fibers.  They will track you and the theater down, and burn you to the ground.

Or, suit up, wear a full respirator, leave a bunch of fibers around so the heavy smoking actor that gets cancer 20 years from now can sue you and the theater, and burn you to the ground.

Hire a pro.  I shoveled all the 9x9 asbestos tiles off the floor of my 1960 house 40 years ago,but the only person who remembers that is me, and I probably won't sue my own ass off.  I would not do that today.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I was certified here in MA for glove bag removal of small areas for repairs a little over 30 years ago.  No contractor I'm aware of that isn't specifically in the abatement business would want their employee taking that kind of liability on so we never touched it.

You're describing a decent amount of pipe in a closed soffit, the procedure to do it correctly would involve setting up a containment area, putting that into a negative air pressure condition using ventilators with HEPA filter exhaust, full PPE for the workers including a space to shower and change, air monitoring both inside and outside the abatement area and documentation of the removal, the types of fibers found, the disposal process and the final landfill destination of the removed insulation.  It's not a pocket knife and shop vac job, it's a job for a properly trained contractor.  Not sure about PA but that contractor and their employees would be licensed here in MA.

Curtis, you're a smart guy with a lot of great ideas.

This isn't one of them.

Your theatre is a public space. You invite hundreds of volunteers and audience people regularly. You also have an HVAC system.  Even if you did it perfectly it could close the theatre permanently if it got into the news.

If there is a single person on your board of directors who is onboard with this idea, fire them. Fast.

This is a terrible idea.

There's something else at play here, to keep in mind.

I should caveat that I am in no way suggesting that you shouldn't take every reasonable health and safety precautions.

BUT

The people who do asbestos abatement, the people who remove mercury amalgam fittings, the people who give you an X ray and hide behind a lead door while they do it... are doing it day in, day out, year after year.  They are at a rather high risk of exposure because of this.

You are doing it (hopefully) once.  You'll be exposed to risk once in your life.  Follow best practices and you'll be fine.

Now, the whole public-spaces-liability aspect of it, is honestly more scary IMO.

The only reason to ever think about this is to avoid the cost of asbestos abatement.

OSHA (and other agencies) doesn't care about money, and abatement isn't that expensive.

There is no reason to consider this.

...plus, you just made it public. Now it is a REALLY terrible idea. 

Of all the liabilities and risks that construction professionals are exposed to throughout their careers, there is NO bigger liability than mishandling asbestos.
 

Im not saying "OMG you're gonna die!"  I'm saying it is a huge liability from a legal, governmental, and public awareness perspective.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

There's something else at play here, to keep in mind.

I should caveat that I am in no way suggesting that you shouldn't take every reasonable health and safety precautions.

BUT

The people who do asbestos abatement, the people who remove mercury amalgam fittings, the people who give you an X ray and hide behind a lead door while they do it... are doing it day in, day out, year after year.  They are at a rather high risk of exposure because of this.

 

You are doing it (hopefully) once.  You'll be exposed to risk once in your life.  Follow best practices and you'll be fine.

 

Now, the whole public-spaces-liability aspect of it, is honestly more scary IMO.

When I was in my mid-20s I tore out an old walk-in cooler from my mother's building(a former grocery) from the 1930's with zero PPE or any clue that it might have been a good idea. 

I asked my doc about it a couple years ago & she said it's nothing to worry about.

But yeah, for Curtis' situation absolutely hire a pro.  

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

Curtis, you're a smart guy with a lot of great ideas.

This isn't one of them.

If this was your house, I'd still warn you against it. In a public space, forget you even thought of touching it yourself.

This is a thing you're going to need certified pros to do, who will give you a nice science-y report showing exactly where it was hot, how hot it was, and what they did to make it safe.

Having that report on file will be a very very important thing.

Get a quote for the abatement. 
 

Then ask your legal advisor, your board of directors, and your CFO (or equal) if they think it is a good investment.

There won't be any gray area.

Here's what you DON'T want... 10 years from now that jolly old guy who was so wonderful in "Christmas Carol" sitting in court with stage 4 lung cancer telling the judge "...well, there was this guy with a pocket knife and a shop vac.  I don't think his name was Trent- I'm pretty sure it was Curtis".

Please don't consider this.

Ok, relax y'all.  You've talked me out of it.  I was just seeking clarity and you provided it.  I wasn't sure if it was a simple procedure that anyone could do safely... even if it was illegally.

I did call an abatement company.  $3150 for 63 feet of pipe.  I'm holding off on buying a $200 saw until we have some ticket sales and a sponsorship check clear, so $3150 to "make more space" is like asking the leadership for a company corvette and requesting a Z06 package.

I can get pictures next time I'm at work, but it's not really sealed behind the soffit.  The soffit is some 2x2s and luan that was just added to make things a little prettier and to have a place to store light fixtures on the wall.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I wonder if there are any grants you could apply for?

In reply to Mr_Asa :

That's a good thought

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Likely?  It more or less falls under infrastructure, which is often associated with a Capital Campaign.  In the past, it's been hard enough to get grants simply because we're an arts organization, but then add on to that the "unsexiness" of asbestos and remodeling, it might be a tough sell.  I have successfully written one grant for infrastructure and assets in which I was requesting $15k of a $25k cap, and I was awarded $750.  I would probably have better luck just appealing directly to the few board members that I know are sympathetic to my plights.  They might write a check.

Contrast that with the veterans home down the street (on whose advisory board I sit), they received $150k from the same benefactor by just asking for a donation.  They were granted $2M (conglomerate) when they actually submitted for a grant.

PM sent.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

My BIL worked for an asbestos removal company. Full body coverage with an external air hose under positive pressure.

Either leave the pipes alone or hire someone.

This right here.  I worked for an industrial hygiene consulting company that did asbestos inspections and air monitoring during abatement.  I also would go inside and do some abatement due to boredom.  You would need all the proper training, licenses, an asbestos supervior and specialized equipment.  The fines are very significant and the liability isn't worth it.   If it is just pipe lagging, look for a contractor that can remove it by glovebagging.  Otherwise the room has to be put completely sealed off, put under negative pressure and have a decon to enter and exit.  

OK.  I posted this early on before reading to the bottom.  Lots of great advice here.  Glad you decided to listen to it.   And like somebody above said, I would definitely remove floor tile in my own house, using proper technique of course.    

Curtis, I'll send you $500 for your abatement project. Shoot me a PM and tell me where to send it. 

Now the rest of you guys start coughing up some cash. This seems like a good place to send a little GRM goodwill. 

In reply to spitfirebill :

Asking for a friend...

where would one look for info on proper techniques for removing floor tile or linoleum sheet from the 1950s?

In reply to No Time :

Supposedly it's just the dust that will get you so a friend of mine lightly flooded his floor and scraped up the 9x9 tiles that way, keeping it all nice and wet. Disposal? Dunno about that. Thick bags is my guess. 

No Time said:

In reply to spitfirebill :

Asking for a friend...

where would one look for info on proper techniques for removing floor tile or linoleum sheet from the 1950s?

Linoleum is a different beast from floor tile.  I might try removing it, but it may be best to cover with plywood and move on.  The asbestos in linoleum is in the paper-looking backing.   If I were to do it, I would use a razor and slice it keeping it misted with amended water (water with a little surfactant).  You need a proper respirator and protective clothing.  You would need a HEPA and keep the hose near you work area.  Floor tile can be loosened up with heat.  Often it is already loose.  The tiles may come up in whole or at least big pieces.   If the tile were on a concrete floor, I would flood the floor with water, cover with poly and leave it for several days.  If it gets hot that would help.  That usually makes it pop off the floor.   Any black mastic under tile is typically asbestos-containing.  An abatement contractor I worked with found a solvent named Cold Wash that would dissolve it and it could be wiped up.   Cold wash was used to clean the bilges of ships, but it sure worked for black mastic.  The problem comes when it is time to dispose of it, because it is regulated.  It has to be double bagged in 10-mill poly and properly labeled.  Transport to a landfill is also regulated.  You can see why it may just be better to hire a contractor to do it.   You can see why I wanted out of the asbestos business as soon as I could.  

We recently looked at an older house that I felt had an asbestos ceiling finish as it had the bedded in electrical strip heat with thermostat in each room.            

Toyman! said:

Curtis, I'll send you $500 for your abatement project. Shoot me a PM and tell me where to send it. 

Now the rest of you guys start coughing up some cash. This seems like a good place to send a little GRM goodwill. 

Wow... Um... not sure what to say.  Thank you.

I'm working on getting more quotes.