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Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy HalfDork
5/23/20 3:56 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

 

Didn't think I'd have to defend against statements I didn't even make. I specifically stated I'm not judging anyone nor am I judging a whole. In regards to racism against white people, I never tried to justify it.

Just tried to give my (a black man in America) point of view. 

Just saying “my point of view and just being honest” doesn’t mean that you can say whatever you want without being challenged. You pulled the pin and chucked a grenade. I saw is as not only unfair and disparaging to myself, but the majority of good people that I know. 

But I’m glad you shared your opinion. I’m saddened and hurt by it. While we have made great strides, no amount of racism is acceptable. Attacking those on your side is not going to move the needle. 

 

 

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) UltimaDork
5/23/20 5:01 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

One of the many things I'm trying to teach Lil Stampie is how to be the better person.  I'm sure you understand as a father of a young man.  Thank you for being the better person here.

Toyman01 (Forum Supporter)
Toyman01 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/23/20 5:03 p.m.

So I watched the ad. It was kind of goofy dumb. I did not find it to be particularly racist, but I'm a cracka from the South so that's not surprising. 

White hands, white guy = funny? I would say yes.

Black hands, black guy = funny? Again yes.

Black hands, white guy = funny? No comment.

White hands, black guy = not funny? No comment. 

I try to be objective about racism. By most people's standards I fail because I mostly ignore it. I really don't see it in my daily life. I work pretty equally with people from all races so the color of their skin is pretty irrelevant. Character > color to me. 

Did we ever consider that the group that wrote, filmed, and acted in this are the only people that weren't racist because they actually didn't pay any attention to the color of the skin, on anyone? The art oriented people I know are extremely anti-racism.

Could it possibly be the the best actor for the job just happened to be black and the person that cast him didn't even think about the color of his skin?

Are we seeing racism where there was none?

Does that make the viewers and the outraged the only racists because they can't get past skin color? 

 

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy HalfDork
5/23/20 6:02 p.m.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

I’ve got three children myself. I’m proud that race is not a factor an any of their friendships or relationships. Proud but not surprised, as racism is a learned behavior, and children are inherently oblivious to race. How good the other kid is at baseball or Fortnight is of much greater consequence. I don’t teach them to fear or hold animosity towards other races. I don’t teach them to feel guilt because their skin is the same color as people in the past that had committed atrocious acts. I teach them to be kind and compassionate. I constantly remind them that they are alive in the best time and place in human history, and not to take it for granted, and it’s there job to make it even better. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
5/23/20 6:03 p.m.
Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to yupididit :

Just tried to give my (a black man in America) point of view. 

Just saying “my point of view and just being honest” doesn’t mean that you can say whatever you want without being challenged. You pulled the pin and chucked a grenade. I saw is as not only unfair and disparaging to myself, but the majority of good people that I know. ..

To defend him a bit here (since he will no longer participate):  He never said those where HIS beliefs, I think he was just explaining the sentiment.  It is a bit hard to differentiate in text sometimes, especially with something like this.

To put it another way: You can understand why some people would feel that way....  (as I mentioned, doesn't mean it's right or "valid" though).

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) UltimaDork
5/23/20 6:07 p.m.

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I'm sorry but I didn't point any criticism at you at all.  No need to feel the need to defend yourself.

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón)
Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) MegaDork
5/23/20 6:40 p.m.
aircooled said:
Yes, but why do you assume race is the primary reason?  They are voting districts, the primary motivation almost certainly would be to reduce the voting power of a particular party.  Certainly minorities tend to vote for one party, but that does not mean the primary motivation is race (unless this was done by the party they normally vote for).

 

I'm not assuming anything.

In 2017, in the matter of Cooper vs. Harris, the Supreme Court found two districts unconstitutional based on factual evidence they were drawn along racial lines, and thereby violated the Equal Protection Clause.  Disenfranchising minority voters because it is assumed that they tend to vote for a particular party is *exactly* the sort of thing that institutional racism is all about.

I live in one of the states where the fight for Civil Rights started. The fight is far from over, it's just become fewer fire hoses and attack dogs and more institutional in nature. The court case above shows that the battle is still being fought. I realize I'm walking a fine line on the "no politics" rule here, but I'm willing to take a ban on this because I think the concept of active, institutional racism is more important than keeping up with the forums.

BlueInGreen - Jon (Forum Supporter)
BlueInGreen - Jon (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
5/23/20 6:51 p.m.

Well, I came to this thread in expecting to post something silly about the TopGear episode where they “attempt” to make a VW ad.

But apparently we’ve gone beyond that.

With growing up outside Detroit and currently living in a town notorious for heavy KKK presence back in the day, the current discussion happens to be something that’s often in my thoughts. here are three things I’ve learned.

Racism exists in many forms and places; it’s ugly.

Healing can happen but...

It needs to start at an individual level, I didn’t truly understand until I developed relationships and listened face to face to stories from the “other side,” (quotes because really shouldn’t we all be on the same side?) The sharing needs to go both ways. I think social media and most news media makes the problem worse because no one is listening, just shouting louder than ever. Yes,  there is racism in the system, both current and leftover from our past, but we as individuals make up that system. We are the ones who vote for judges and politicians and spend our money on education and entertainment.

That’s all the idealistic rambling I’ve got for tonight.

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
5/23/20 7:01 p.m.

I don't understand how anyone seriously believes that the way to fight racism (present and past) is with more racism. If racism is so bad, then why advocate for more if it. 

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy HalfDork
5/23/20 7:06 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :

I don’t quite see it, as it started with “my point of view” and led to expecting people to atone for the “sins of their fathers.” But if I had a complete reading comprehension fail, and he was relaying sentiment rather than his personal thoughts, then I apologize for attacking the messenger. 

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) UltimaDork
5/23/20 7:16 p.m.

I think one thing that has helped me see the "other side" is to realize my own prejudice.

prej·u·dice

/ˈprejədəs/

noun

  1. 1.

    preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

I honestly don't think any one of us can say we don't prejudge others. Well he drives a Ford so he's a dumbass or he's black/white so he doesn't understand me. One thing I work hard at is understanding my mental response to others  and try to see how I judge them based off factors that don't matter. Am I prejudice?  Yes. But I'm trying to work on it. 

NermalSnert (Forum Supporter)
NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) Reader
5/23/20 7:58 p.m.

This: Stampie_ In reply to yupididit :

One of the many things I'm trying to teach Lil Stampie is how to be the better person. I'm sure you understand as a father of a young man. Thank you for being the better person here.

Carl Sagen touched on racism in a some of his books- Really insightful. Racism, Your different, This is our club- you can't be in it, etc. is human nature for EVERY human. The trick is doing what Stampie said.

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón)
Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) MegaDork
5/23/20 8:02 p.m.
Stampie (FS) said:

I think one thing that has helped me see the "other side" is to realize my own prejudice.


Beyond prejudice, there is implicit bias. It's when your thinking is affected without you even realizing it.

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) UltimaDork
5/23/20 8:20 p.m.

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) :

That's what the PC call unconscious bias.  My goal is to make my unconscious bias conscious bias and make my couscous bias go away.

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
5/23/20 9:14 p.m.
Stampie (FS) said:

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) :

make my couscous bias go away.

What do you have against tiny pasta?

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) UltimaDork
5/23/20 9:24 p.m.

In reply to ShawnG :

The damn Google Chromebook bias against a proper spell check.

fasted58
fasted58 MegaDork
5/23/20 9:27 p.m.

I can honestly say I have never noticed racism or sexism from VW. Maybe I'm just out of that loop, nor have I been compelled to seek it out.

This thread took a questionable turn a few pages back. frown

geezus guys

Carbon (Forum Supporter)
Carbon (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
5/24/20 2:39 a.m.

I think people did an admirable job of keeping this civil despite the charged nature of the thread topic. I'm stoked that we can pull off a thread like this without it getting locked.
 

 Hopefully one day all races, colors and creeds can all come together and fight the real problem..... open differentials. 

ddavidv
ddavidv PowerDork
5/24/20 5:41 a.m.

I pay zero attention to advertisements and y'all shouldn't either.

I'm more offended by check engine lights, "service mode" being the default to do anything on their cars and piss poor resale value.

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
5/24/20 6:45 a.m.
aircooled said:
Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to yupididit :

Just tried to give my (a black man in America) point of view. 

Just saying “my point of view and just being honest” doesn’t mean that you can say whatever you want without being challenged. You pulled the pin and chucked a grenade. I saw is as not only unfair and disparaging to myself, but the majority of good people that I know. ..

To defend him a bit here (since he will no longer participate):  He never said those where HIS beliefs, I think he was just explaining the sentiment.  It is a bit hard to differentiate in text sometimes, especially with something like this.

To put it another way: You can understand why some people would feel that way....  (as I mentioned, doesn't mean it's right or "valid" though).

I had to step away for a second. 

Yes this. Thank you for understanding perfectly what I was trying to communicate. 

Personally speaking: It isn't an easy subject for me to give my thoughts etc. It actually took more than you'd think for me to even post those thoughts. It was hard and stressful figuring out the right way to say without seeming like I'm blaming everyone. From where I speak, it's painful and brought back painful and scary memories. 

One of the hardest conversations to have as a black person is to explain or try to communicate our pain and experiences. Often, the other person gets defensive because they feel attacked or guilty or what ever it is. And usually they flip it and reverse it and tell you how you've hurt them or offended them for what you did while trying to communicate 400ish years of pain and suffrage. What kind of E36 M3 is that? Makes you want to give up. It is extremely difficult to articulate for many reasons. 

To those who took offense to anything I said, I'm sorry but it wasn't meant that way. I was trying to give the perspective thats often too hard to give. I don't condone racism from any direction and I've never even hinted that I do. If you interpreted what I've written that way, then that was just miscommunication as the receiver because it was never said or implied by me. 

In the end I'm glad we were able to have this discussion. I do love the members of this forum and most definitely wish we could search up post and threads started by member name LoL

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
5/24/20 7:07 a.m.
Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to yupididit :

Your words, not mine...

Being a white heterosexual male (WHM to save typing), throughout the past 1000+ years or so the WHM has oppressed murdered colonized and waged terror on most of the world. The WHM has also completely erased cultures and groups of people off the face of the earth simply because they weren't a WHM. Think about it. After hundreds of years of this going on, it takes a toll and establishes a perception of WHM's. Your ancestors were scary and down right evil to their fellow humans.

You also doubled down on “holding you accountable to correct and make right the sins of your fathers.” 

I don’t dispute that’s were some truly evil people in the past. I’d just like to see how you connected the dots to people of today. 

Maybe I misunderstood you. Who’s ancestors  were evil, and exactly who is responsible for correcting the sins of their fathers?

Maybe you don't understand "perception". Or how I was replying to a previous post about how he felt like he was perceived as the "bad guy" as a WHM. I was just giving him a point of view of how people of color around the world (Especially in America and Africa) might perceive a WHM as the bad guy or "white devil" (as many cultures have described the WHM) based on history and colonization. I DON'T PERSONALLY FEEL WHITE HETEROSEXUAL MEN ARE BAD GUYS OR DEVILS  AS A WHOLE. BUT I MOST DEFINITELY UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE MAY FEEL THAT WAY. I even ended the post by telling him he isn't bad just because he's a WHM.

I hope one day you can understand everything I typed in the post (in context) that you partially quoted. And how history goes hand in hand with present American social issues and injustices.  If not, then....I don't know man. 

"Sins of your father", another post I was giving a member perspective in context to what he posted. I'm not sure if you only read my post in this thread or you didn't see who I was replying to, though I quoted them. Context man. 

 

I do however feel the white people (its ok to say white people) should be held accountable for correcting all the atrocious E36 M3 that's happened in this country. And it is your responsibility as Americans to undo systematic racism. Not personally being racist isn't enough. The oppressed minority cannot do it without your continued help. I even stated what I think that looks like:

Be understanding, spread love, seek knowledge vs staying ignorant, do not dismiss ones pain and experience from racism, actively shut down any and all racism that you see, and do your part in deconstructing the systemic racism that still in place. 

 If you don't like that I said it then that's where our differences are. And that's okay. I'm not sorry for feeling that way. And no hard feelings towards you. Be well. 

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/24/20 10:10 a.m.

In reply to yupididit :

Thank you for coming back into this conversation. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
5/24/20 10:14 a.m.

Yes, thanks for your contribution.

I was feeling a bit guilty for drawing you into that answer.  I VERY much appreciate your honesty on this.

Purple Frog (Forum Supporter)
Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) Reader
5/24/20 11:12 a.m.

Here is another personal view on the VW issue which is a bit different spin.

I started driving air-cooled bugs in 1965.  Why did i drive one?  They were inexpensive and easy to keep running.  At the time i lived on the fringes of a neighborhood that had a high percentage of Jewish people.  Over time I learned that much of that population were very upset that anyone would buy a German product with a tainted history.  Remember, in this time period many of my neighbors had blurred tatooed numbers and clear memories.   I wasn't trying to make any kind of bigoted statement, but kind of fell into it in a way.  oops.

Then in the later 60's I was a "longhair" driving above mentioned bugs and splitwindow buses in the panhandle of North Florida.  I experienced some 'interesting' traffic stops by men wearing one-way sunglasses.  Some of these officiers, being WWII vets,  couldn't fathom why someone would buy something made in Germany.  They also couldn't fathom why someone would have long hair. :)  (Obviously being a target of demographic profiling changed a lot of my thinking going forward.)

We had something like 14 VWs in the extended family by 1970.  But as time went on we discovered that water-cooled vehicles had many practical advantages, and we migrated away from 3,000 mile valve adjustments.

Then as a mechanic i was learned over time that the German stuff was high maintenance, and relatively expensive... so. I migrated to Japanese equipment.   For the next 30 years i just didn't see the ROI value in German cars.  

Then came "deiselgate" .  That really turned me off. against the brand.

Now, 50 years later i have a "outlaw bug" that attends a lot of car culture gatherings.  It has been interesting even in today's timeframe how many interesting tarmac conversations occur about VW's "cultural history."  I find that openly discussing the subject is healthier than not.

I have come to realize that even though i don't share some of VW's history, just having one may speak something to others that I didn't intend at all.

 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
5/24/20 11:35 a.m.
Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) said:

...We had something like 14 VWs in the extended family by 1970.  But as time went on we discovered that water-cooled vehicles had many practical advantages, and we migrated away from 3,000 mile valve adjustments...


OK..... now I'm offended!  You sir have an issue with coolantism!

 

cheeky

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