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Duke
Duke MegaDork
5/22/24 1:36 p.m.
Flynlow said:

I don't blame corporations for wanting to make money.  That's their purpose.  I do blame corporations (a little) for lopsided lobbying, cronyism, and corruption as it relates to regulators, audits, and the federal government.  But let's put that aside for the moment...I also blame them (more than a little) for letting PE/vulture capitalists/MBA bros weasel into management and focusing solely on the next quarter, rather than a sustainable 3/5/10 year plan.  Because as a shareholder myself, I want to make money 10+ years from now, not just tons this year and then bankrupcty next year. 

For the real source of inflation, I MASSIVELY blame the federal reserve (which is independent of the government) for printing money and handing it out like drunken sailers the past several years at the expense of all of our futures.  0% interest rates, the PPP program, quantitative easing, and stimulus left, right, and center is what got us here.

:golf clap:

How do you fix it? 

Not by listening to "Nobel-Prize-winning economists", that's for damn sure.

 

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
5/22/24 1:40 p.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

To some extent, inflation is a self-correcting problem. If prices rise too high, people will stop buying stuff. Even with staples like groceries, folks will seek out cheaper alternatives. And when that happens, prices will come down, as we're starting to see from these major retailers.

Inflation does not self-correct, unless you mean the total collapse of a particular currency, resulting in people switching to more stable forms of payment.

Look at Weimar Germany, Zimbabwe, or Venezuala for examples of what happens when inflation "self-corrects".

 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
5/22/24 1:42 p.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Uh, whut...?  Those are examples of inflation totally failing to self correct.

 

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress Dork
5/22/24 1:46 p.m.
bobzilla said:
GameboyRMH said:
Toyman! said:

Take the top 5 higest paid of Fords leadership. Add up their total compensation, $79,000,000.00, and disburse it to all of Ford's employees. 

Their total raise will be $0.22/hr. 

Again, not enough to offset inflation or even be noticed. 

Taking the top 1, or the top 5 employees is basically the same problem at a slightly different scale. It's not about the top X number of employees, especially if is a 1-digit number, it's about the top 5-9% of employees whose pay has increased with overall productivity vs. the bottom 90%+ whose pay has barely budged since the '70s.

This is why we can't have a decent discussion with you about economics. You let feelings get in the way of facts. They are not the same. 

Average hourly wage in 1979 for Ford that I can find was $6.80/hr. Adjusted for inflation, that would be approximately $29.37. Today's average hourly wage with Ford is $30.44/hour. It has kept up with inflation just fine. 

You're (probably) cherry picking the data by discussing well compensated union workers, and misrepresenting GameBoy's  argument by making it about inflation and not pay vs. productivity. 

He's talking about the below chart. It's taken from this article by EPI, which is a labor aligned think tank. If you disagree with their methodology here is a link to an FRED analysis that breaks out the productivity gap into different pay groups.

 

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
5/22/24 1:47 p.m.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

To some extent, inflation is a self-correcting problem. If prices rise too high, people will stop buying stuff. Even with staples like groceries, folks will seek out cheaper alternatives. And when that happens, prices will come down, as we're starting to see from these major retailers.

Inflation does not self-correct, unless you mean the total collapse of a particular currency, resulting in people switching to more stable forms of payment.

Look at Weimar Germany, Zimbabwe, or Venezuala for examples of what happens when inflation "self-corrects".

I did qualify my statement, but the examples you give are certainly valid. I would say that they are extreme, and affected by outside factors, but that doesn't make them invalid. Still, I think my point that the market will punish high prices stands.

Is it your contention that the only way to counter inflation is by limiting prices in some way, government action or other?

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones UltraDork
5/22/24 1:50 p.m.

Just like every time stuff like this is discussed here, those that think the system is against them, or it's someone else's fault they're not where they want to be in life, will continue to make excuses and reasons why they are where they are.  the rest of us will continue on as we do.

You can never convince a "victim" that they have the same opportunity as everyone else.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
5/22/24 1:51 p.m.
1988RedT2 said:
NOHOME said:

In reply to Toyman! :

It is not the upper management that is the dead-weight so much as it is the whole concept of "Stockholders" and stock-price engineering. Stockholders contribute nothing  of value to a company and yet are entitled to the cream of whatever profits might show up.  

"Stockholders" are the owners of a corporation, and as such assume all the risk associated with profitability, to the point of bankruptcy and total loss of principal.  Seems like they ought to be entitled to something.

 

 In a traditional ( obsolete) version of the Stock Market, I would agree with you.

But anymore....Why would a corporation need or want shareholders when money was free from 2008 to 2022? Without doing any innovation or productivity improvements, a corporation borrowed free money to buy their own stock so that the price would go up so that they could borrow more free money  to buy more of their stock so that the stock  price could go up.....rinse and repeat.

 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
5/22/24 1:53 p.m.

In reply to CrustyRedXpress :

There's no cherry picking E36 M3. He makes a wild ass statement. I find the data that shows his wild ass statement is just that. He states that ford workers haven't even kept up with inflation since hte 80's. Data says otherwise. Then he pivots to "well that was because union" and we pull that data. Still wrong. Now, if you want to have a conversation about productivity then fine, but that was not the ORIGINAL statement being thrown out there. 

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress Dork
5/22/24 1:54 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:

Just like every time stuff like this is discussed here, those that think the system is against them, or it's someone else's fault they're not where they want to be in life, will continue to make excuses and reasons why they are where they are.  the rest of us will continue on as we do.

You can never convince a "victim" that they have the same opportunity as everyone else.

I am where I want to be in life. I'm very concerned that the playing field is stacked against large portions of our society.  I refuse to "continue on as we do" so long as that's the case.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
5/22/24 1:54 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:

Just like every time stuff like this is discussed here, those that think the system is against them, or it's someone else's fault they're not where they want to be in life, will continue to make excuses and reasons why they are where they are.  the rest of us will continue on as we do.

You can never convince a "victim" that they have the same opportunity as everyone else.

quoting for truth. 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa MegaDork
5/22/24 2:03 p.m.
bobzilla said:
Mr_Asa said:
GameboyRMH said:

In reply to bobzilla :

Good for Ford employees (who are unionized BTW), what about everyone else though? My argument that pay has barely budged since the '70s are based on facts from national-level employment statistics and cost of living data, no feelings involved. Your fact about Ford worker pay was cherry-picked out of a tiny subset of that data.

Also, is that before or after last year's UAW contract that they fought so hard for?  Cause I think starting wages jumped 70% with that contract.

starting wages did not jump 70%. I swear I don't know where you get this "information" 

I remembered the figure from somewhere.

But a quick google shows:

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
5/22/24 2:05 p.m.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

and IIRC, that "starting wage" was no longer hiring temps as that was part of the deal. They were hiring temps at 40% less or something silly instead of full time union employees. So it's a little misleading, like all figures can be if you manipulate them enough. 

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
5/22/24 2:11 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:

Just like every time stuff like this is discussed here, those that think the system is against them, or it's someone else's fault they're not where they want to be in life, will continue to make excuses and reasons why they are where they are.  the rest of us will continue on as we do.

You can never convince a "victim" that they have the same opportunity as everyone else.

I suppose that depends on whether you care for your fellow American or not. 

You can feel like you have made it and are successful while still thinking that your neighbors are getting the shaft. 

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
5/22/24 2:13 p.m.
Mr_Asa said:
GameboyRMH said:
Toyman! said:
alfadriver said:

There is one part of corporate culture that is making inflation worse, though- the pay gap between the people who do the work and the people who tell them to do the work. 
 

Management is easily keeping ahead of inflation but workers don't. And the management compensation isn't part of profits, but part of costs. So it could be hidden in lower profit statements. 
 

This has been going on for decades and has gotten wider over time, so it is a factor in the economic issues. 

Using Ford as an example. CEO compensation was $26,000,000.00 for 2023. If you took 100% of that compensation and divided it between every employee that Ford has (177,000), each employee would get another $0.07 per hour. 

I don't think that's going to solve the inflation problem. Or even be noticeable. 

 

There are a lot of issues with this, the main one is that CEO pay in particular is just the visible tip of the executive & upper management pay iceberg. If you look at the whole iceberg of top 5~9% incomes, you'll find all the money that's missing. Productivity has increased enough now that if the share of worker pay was similar to the '70s, people would only need to work 3 days a week to make the same that they make in 5 right now. Or they could work 5 days a week and make 40% more than they do right now. Another way of looking at that is that everyone who works 5 days a week now is basically spending 2 work days making executives and upper management relatively wealthier than they were in the '70s.

For reference, if you google "Ford Top Execs and then "view all leadership" on the corporate.ford.com website, it gives you 9 pages of executives at 10 people per page.

So.  Yeah.  Disingenuous argument is disingenuous 

Following your links, there are 86 Executive VPs at Ford. So lets do some maths again. 

The best info I can find shows the average salary of an executive VP at Ford is between $300k and $475K each. Let's round that up to an even $500k each for a total compensation of $43,000,000.00. Add that to the $79,000,000.00 the top 5 earn and you get a total of $122,000,000.00. 

Now let's spread out among the 177,000 employees Ford has and see where that gets us. 

Holy crap y'all are right, that equals big money. Each person will get another $0.33/hour. 

So let me say this one more time.

Still not enough to offset inflation. 

Still not enough to even be noticed. 

That's $13.20 a week. That won't even buy you 6 pack of decent beer.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
5/22/24 2:19 p.m.
pheller said:
Steve_Jones said:

Just like every time stuff like this is discussed here, those that think the system is against them, or it's someone else's fault they're not where they want to be in life, will continue to make excuses and reasons why they are where they are.  the rest of us will continue on as we do.

You can never convince a "victim" that they have the same opportunity as everyone else.

I suppose that depends on whether you care for your fellow American or not. 

You can feel like you have made it and are successful while still thinking that your neighbors are getting the shaft. 

By the same token, you can care for your fellow American while disagreeing with them about how the system works or should work.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa MegaDork
5/22/24 2:19 p.m.
bobzilla said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

and IIRC, that "starting wage" was no longer hiring temps as that was part of the deal. They were hiring temps at 40% less or something silly instead of full time union employees. So it's a little misleading, like all figures can be if you manipulate them enough. 

Fair point.

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy Dork
5/22/24 2:20 p.m.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

As share prices drop, Target, Aldis, and Wal Mart are all dropping prices on thousands of items.

Many are asking "so why are you doing this now, instead of earlier?"

Considering that this thread has "proven" that corporate greed isnt to blame for these prices rising, I'm curious as to what is.

Good question, and here is the overly simplistic answer. 
 

First, let's make sure we are all talking about the same thing, and understand what inflation is. 
 

a general increase in prices and fall in the purchasing value of money.

The problem is that people often confuse inflation with the rate of inflation. The current rate of inflation is in the low 3% rate, which is back down much closer to normal. But we are dealing with prices that have had a couple years of inflation in the 6-9% range, and much higher in some segments (food.) We could have inflation at 0%, but prices would remain at their same, much higher than 2019 state,  which most people associate with high inflation. I think people are expecting prices to drop down to 2019 levels, but that just isn't happening. One, we introduced a whole bunch more money into the system. Too much money chasing too few goods. Two, there are still supply and demand imbalances in some sectors. Three, we had a decade of below average inflation (largely due to low interest rates) prior to 2020, and some of it is just "catch up." Businesses had been taking margin hits due to competition, and once someone blinked and had to raise their prices, they all rose their prices. A similar thing happened in 2008 on a smaller and shorter scale when fuel prices reached a then high. Prices rose "because of fuel prices." That was partially true, but it was also cover to raise long dormant pricing. It didn't go down when fuel prices dropped. 
 

Assuming we don't keep pumping money into the system, things will stabilize. We have a big wild card in the from of all of the supply shortages and demand increases from Covid. Some areas are getting back to normal (it's a much better time to buy a kayak or mountain bike) but others are still struggling (construction supplies.) 

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
5/22/24 2:21 p.m.

In reply to prowlerjc :

Spice cake, please. 

 

 

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
5/22/24 2:29 p.m.

I can give you an instance where spreading CEO pay out amongst the employees would make a significant difference. 

That is my pay and my employees. It would add up to a pretty significant bump in pay for all of them. 

Of course, if I take my financing and labor and go home, we'd also be out of business by the next pay period. 

 

 

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
5/22/24 2:38 p.m.
CrustyRedXpress said:
bobzilla said:
GameboyRMH said:
Toyman! said:

Take the top 5 higest paid of Fords leadership. Add up their total compensation, $79,000,000.00, and disburse it to all of Ford's employees. 

Their total raise will be $0.22/hr. 

Again, not enough to offset inflation or even be noticed. 

Taking the top 1, or the top 5 employees is basically the same problem at a slightly different scale. It's not about the top X number of employees, especially if is a 1-digit number, it's about the top 5-9% of employees whose pay has increased with overall productivity vs. the bottom 90%+ whose pay has barely budged since the '70s.

This is why we can't have a decent discussion with you about economics. You let feelings get in the way of facts. They are not the same. 

Average hourly wage in 1979 for Ford that I can find was $6.80/hr. Adjusted for inflation, that would be approximately $29.37. Today's average hourly wage with Ford is $30.44/hour. It has kept up with inflation just fine. 

You're (probably) cherry picking the data by discussing well compensated union workers, and misrepresenting GameBoy's  argument by making it about inflation and not pay vs. productivity. 

He's talking about the below chart. It's taken from this article by EPI, which is a labor aligned think tank. If you disagree with their methodology here is a link to an FRED analysis that breaks out the productivity gap into different pay groups.

 

This is mostly in reply to CrustyRedExpress's post about wages VS inflation:

My beef with my wages today isn't their "adjusted for inflation rate", it's I have less buying power than I would have had at the same job in the 1970's.  And while I can't say it's the same everywhere, I can compare my current position to my grandfathers:

My Grandfather worked as a machinist for a large aerospace corporation in the 1970s and 1980s.  Looking at reports from the era, I can see that he probably made about $7.80 an hour or about $15,000 a year.  (This was a job he got with training that was provided via military service).

 

I remember him complaining very loud and often about having to pay $10,000 for the 4-bedroom craftsman house he lived in (below).  It would have taken him 2/3 of a year to pay that house off completely had he thrown his entire pre-tax salary at the place.



He put two of his three children through college and retired with a motorhome and two Cadillacs.

So me being me, I join the service, I get out, and I work for the same large aerospace corporation but as an Avionics Technician in field services.  I made $78,000 a year.  I bought a house in a neighboring city for $260,000.  Had I thrown 100% of my pre-tax wages at this house, it would have taken me 3-years and 4-months to pay off. 

Which I don't think is too bad, but I am a bit jealous of my grandfather, so I finish my school and get promoted to an electrical engineering position.  I no longer live in the states, but I can see my median salary would come in around $120,000 a year at my old place of work.  Unfortunately I sold the house when I moved overseas, but should I want to move back I would be looking at 3/4 of a million dollars for my old house:

Were I to throw my entire salary at it (a mere 6 years after I left), I would now need to commit 6.25 years of my life at this higher wage just to have my old house back even though my wages increased to over 150% what they used to be (or 9 years and change if I still had my old salary).
 
And before you say "aw, you should have stayed!".  Yo, we were pinching for pennies so hard when I lived there I think the property tax increase alone would have killed us by now...

I don't know what the cause is, that's for people smarter than me to figure out.  All I know is I followed all the instructions I was given and still came up further behind every time.

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
5/22/24 2:41 p.m.

I don't think Ford is a good example because most of its worker make good money in areas that are cheap to live. 

 

There is a whole lot of America out there that does not have access to those same unskilled jobs at $28hr with union protections. 

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman UltraDork
5/22/24 2:46 p.m.

There are two main factors squeezing my business right now: industry consolidation and aggressive competitor tactics.

Consolidation: Fewer companies are competing for workers, which allows them to keep wages lower. This is a major challenge because labor costs are a significant expense for us.

Price Wars: We've seen some item prices spike by 50% compared to pre-pandemic levels, while others (like pallets) have risen over 100% at their peak. While we try to anticipate price increases to stay profitable, it's a delicate dance. Raising prices too early feels like gouging customers, but waiting too long could put us out of business.

The Squeeze Play: Unfortunately, my industry is highly consolidated, with just 3 companies dictating pricing for major chains. We have no say in these contracts, and local customers complain about our price hikes despite the fact our competitors have raised theirs even more (30-40% higher) for large corporations.

Predatory Pricing: To make matters worse, one competitor offers introductory prices 20-30% below ours to poach our remaining clientele. They're hoping to lure customers away and pressure us into a price war they can probably sustain longer.

This situation creates a problem where rising costs, limited control over pricing, and aggressive competitors all threaten our business.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
5/22/24 2:48 p.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

Is it your contention that the only way to counter inflation is by limiting prices in some way, government action or other?

No, as I said earlier, inflation is not really about prices.  Inflation is about *money*, specifically the amount of it that is floating around in the economy.

Just like everything else in the world, money is affected by the laws of supply and demand.  For example, if you hold demand for bananas constant but increase the supply, the value (and thus the price) for each individual banana drops, right?  The same thing happens with money, if you increase the number of dollars out there then the value of each individual dollar drops.  Dollars don't really have a direct price of their own (at least, not unless you look at international exchange rates), so the way this manifests is that the price of everything else goes up as measured in dollars.

And that's what inflation is.  More money in the economy -> dollars are worth less than they used to be -> price of everything goes up.  If inflation happened perfectly evenly across the board it would be harmless, just imagine that all of a sudden every price has an extra zero at the end.  Bananas cost ten times what they used to, cars cost ten times what they used to, but your salary is ten times what it used to be and so is your bank balance.  That would be a "zero-sum game".

But it doesn't happen evenly, instead what happens is that the government creates more money out of thin air and spends it on something.  Bombers, military salaries, canceling student loan debt, or just "stimulus checks", it doesn't matter.  The government has more money, they spend it on something, and now that money is out in the economy.  It takes a while for the effects to be felt and to trickle out, but if you wait long enough then all prices change as a result as the system settles down and adjusts to the larger supply.  Some parties in the economy benefit from this, such as people who have loans with fixed interest rates who can now pay them back using dollars that are worth less than the ones they borrowed.  In contrast, some parties are hurt by it, such as people living on fixed incomes.

Measuring the money supply is hard, because it's not just about how many pieces of paper there are with green ink printed on them.  Loans don't increase the amount of physical money, but they have similar (but somewhat smaller per dollar) effect on the supply.  There are economic formulas for various "types" of money, but fundamentally this is difficult to use.  So instead of measuring the supply, we measure it indirectly by monitoring prices with the Consumer Price Index.  That's what underlies news reports about "inflation" and why everyone thinks it's about prices when really it's about money.

Anyway, that's a long and roundabout way of saying that if you want to control inflation with a fiat currency you need to do it by controlling the money supply.  The best way to do that is to not let it get out of control in the first place, but our government was acting like a teenager who'd just gotten his first credit card during Covid.  Once we're in this situation there are a few tools that US government has for doing this, but the main one is to have the Federal Reserve raise interest rates (see previous comment about money types).

Another way of controlling it is not to have a fiat currency -- at one point money was gold, and the only way to increase the supply of that was to go dig more of it out of the ground.  That happened, obviously, but is said to be slightly different to fiat currency inflation for reasons that I'm not really sure about.

Price controls, by contrast, do not work.  Prices are set by supply and demand of the good and the money being exchanged for that good, and forcing prices to be held below the natural market point just creates a shortage.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
5/22/24 2:49 p.m.

In reply to Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) :

Housing is a real thing. With all the extra people we aren't seeing the same increase in  building so there is a natural shortage of houses. That's why houses like that list so high and sell fast. But real estate is all about location. That same size house here, $120k to $500k. $750k can easily get you this:

Someplace like New York might get you a 2br 1 bath 800sq ft E36 M3hole. 

Mustang50
Mustang50 Reader
5/22/24 2:50 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :  Good point about our ability to refine petroleum products.  I read somewhere a number of years ago that it more than $3 million just to get the paperwork processed for a new refinery. We have not built any new refineries.  We do have more oil in the ground than all of OPEC. 

Regarding natural gas for cheap and clean electricity production, Ohio, western Pa. and West Virginia is the third largest reserve in the world. We are not using our natural resources wisely.

 

 

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