Is it me, or are vehicle sales really that broken? A question wrapped in a rant

SVreX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Frenchy regardless of your experience, you do seem to be talking out both sides of your mouth on this. Here’s what I am hearing:

”Salesmen have a hard job.  They and their companies deserve high markups so they can survive”

”...but don’t use salesmen or dealerships. Make sure you squeeze them as hard as possible using internet based tools so you can save as much money as possible and deny them their markup”

You can’t have it both ways. 

Knowledge is power.  I’ve told you how to beat the system. I’ve also explained why the system is the way it is.  

You did misstate one point.  I don’t feel dealerships deserve to  make a big profit. I explained why they want a big profit.  

 You all know the psychology of dealerships. Shiny pretty things,  well illuminated, free popcorn, comfortable sales floors.  And your payments are only•••••••• 

If you do it at home you miss all of that. But you do things at your own pace, you take your time, the only one talking you into doing anything is you.  Until you sign your name on the dotted line you haven’t spent a penny. 

aircooled said:

Hey,  where is the guy that always comes into these discussions and insists:

”dealerships are like that because people want it that way, they like to haggle”

Maybe some people (there certainly are people who enjoy the process), but not a lot in the US.

There are obviously a lot of people who like to go into places where shiny pretty things are.  Be treated very well, yes sir, of course sir! Would you like free cup of coffee or bag of popcorn?  

Duke said:

In reply to z31maniac :

Me either!  I don’t get that here. And it’s not like I live in some magic fairy land of good dealers. It’s usually clear right away if the dealership is going to be jerks, and I just walk. And on actual closing, even with financing I’ve never had it take more that 90 minutes, if that. 

The long term close is really a battle between the dealership ( usually a sales manager) and the customer.  Ego’s are involved. 

I saw countless examples of that, but I also sold cars below our actual cost in 90 minutes.  I knew which cars the dealership was desperate to get rid of  and which sales manager wanted it gone.  

If the customer was just hungry for a deal and well enough informed  to know when he had it it could be over and done quickly with  little or no haggling. 

There are always Two sales going on for a salesman. One to the customer, and one to the house( management)  what he says to the customer( he’s usually being overheard by management)  

One manager has his own hot buttons that he needs to hear, another manager will have his. A really sharp salesman knows how to shape the conversation with the customer to achieve his goals with a little practice.  

mazdeuce - Seth said:

And you haven't even talked to the financing guys yet. That's where the real fun is. 

There are always at least 3 managers that have to approve a deal. The new manager, the trade in manager, and the F&I manager. 

Plus everyone gets a cut of the upgrades.  Floor mats, seal coating,  add ons. Etc. 

 

Also, I don’t fall for sale tricks,  I’ve been selling since i was 16.  I’ve done the schools where you learn all the tricks.  

Is there a website with these sales tricks ?

I am great at buying but lousy at selling stuff , I just figured it should sell itself !   Yeah I know I need to Sell ,  maybe I can learn something !

Thanks

In reply to frenchyd :

I remember Jimmy, the salesman who sold me my FR-S. No BS, no pressure. Went to bat for me when a couple of wheel bearings went out. 

I’ve attempted the buy new on the internet thing three times; 1) Special order 2003 Dodge Ram as I wanted, worked great back in 2002. 2) Honda Civic 2002 in 2002, they double sold it and tried to replace it with a different color. 3) Mazda5 2012 in 2011 - didn’t work, the dealer wouldn’t even honor the deal made. Ended up ordering and buying it from a different dealer in person.

The internet isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

I don't really enjoy the car buying experience either. And I get the impression few do anymore - hence the rise of no-haggle dealers like Car Max and Car Sense.  Carvana takes that one step further by completely removing the whole "go to the dealer" bit. 

My last two dealer purchased vehicles (both of my Grand Caravans) were reasonably painless. The '08 came from Car Sense. The '17 came from an actual Dodge dealer, but with a caveat - the dealership is owned by the brother of a coworker.   As such, my interaction was more like a couple of guys BS'ing together and eventually I went home with a new van. I am happy with the price I paid and I'm sure the dealership didn't lose money on the deal, which all said is how it should be.

Grizz said:

I see that E36 M3 all the time and I install furnaces instead of selling cars. You tell the customer the truth, that not only does he need a new heater and AC, but that every single bit of his 30 year old ductwork is out of code, leaks like crazy and is undersized to boot and that to do the job right it would require redoing everything to a likely tune of 20k+ and you're generally not getting the job.

Thank you for bringing back the memory of my HVAC replacement. I called a half-dozen or so places to get quotes when our heat pump needed replaced. Only one tried to sell me on the "You need all new ducts because these are undersized". Our house was probably 12-15 years old at the time. Wait; what? So you're telling me the ducts that have worked perfectly fine heating and cooling my house for a decade are suddenly incapable of doing the job?

Funny, none of the other contractors mentioned it. And, when I brought this up to the installer I eventually hired he laughed. "Yeah, that's what happens when you send a salesman to bid on a job who's never worked on a system". And--surprise--it still works fine today.

Had a similar experience when getting quotes for my roof. "We double nail each shingle" for 4x more than everyone else. Because salesman, not Guy With Hammer.

In reply to ddavidv :

I had a similar experience with a salesman trying to sell me windows. Some crappy vinyl/aluminum replacement windows. He didn't take kindly to me literally laughing at him when he gave me his quote of over $1000/window installed.  Thanks to my ex-, I have installed replacement windows. I know what is involved and how long it should take (after more than a dozen windows in her house, we got pretty damn good at it).  If you think I'm going to pay $1000 to have $100 windows installed, then I have a bridge of my own to sell you.  When I started talking about all of the other things I need done (and even worse - how I want them done), he realized I was not his customer and he left quietly.  

In reply to chandler : my last stint at a car dealership internet sales accounted for 42% of all new car sales.  

I bought both of my daughters cars on the internet plus my last two trucks.  

However I know what you went through doing order outs. Especially “Foriegn or imported” brands.  When I sold Honda’s  we were given what ever the factory produced in the order they were produced.  

We’d get weekly deliveries and hope that any “orders” we had on hand would conform to the customers specs or we could talk the customer into accepting something close.  At the time an actual order out would take a minimum of 12 weeks .  That or we’d dealer trade to get one to a customer’s specs.  

GM FORD DODGE  all have a much better order out system.  Time from them can be as little as 7 weeks depending on a whole bunch of factors.  

However those all tended to be put in with regular orders in order maximize bonus discounts.  

PS Some of those bonuses were things like a delivery of limited production cars  

I think a lot of it is dealership-specific. Though I also wonder if it’s a generational thing. 

My Dad sold...and I mean SOLD cars for 30 years. I don’t get the sense that he was “pushy,” but he *did* do everything in his power to get a person into the car they wanted...or at least something comparable they could afford.

I gave up on the local dealer who had a leftover ‘17 Focus RS.

Their attitude was “Here’s our ridiculous lowball offer for your trade, and we’re not budging on the sale price. Take it or leave it.”

ddavidv said:

Grizz said:

I see that E36 M3 all the time and I install furnaces instead of selling cars. You tell the customer the truth, that not only does he need a new heater and AC, but that every single bit of his 30 year old ductwork is out of code, leaks like crazy and is undersized to boot and that to do the job right it would require redoing everything to a likely tune of 20k+ and you're generally not getting the job.

Thank you for bringing back the memory of my HVAC replacement. I called a half-dozen or so places to get quotes when our heat pump needed replaced. Only one tried to sell me on the "You need all new ducts because these are undersized". Our house was probably 12-15 years old at the time. Wait; what? So you're telling me the ducts that have worked perfectly fine heating and cooling my house for a decade are suddenly incapable of doing the job?

Funny, none of the other contractors mentioned it. And, when I brought this up to the installer I eventually hired he laughed. "Yeah, that's what happens when you send a salesman to bid on a job who's never worked on a system". And--surprise--it still works fine today.

Had a similar experience when getting quotes for my roof. "We double nail each shingle" for 4x more than everyone else. Because salesman, not Guy With Hammer.

For a brief stint I was a storm chaser.  The salesmen who follow heavy hail in an area and try to sell roofing/ siding  jobs damaged by hail.  

Insurance companies pay a fixed price minus deductible  ( usually around $500 )  and they determine what shingles/ siding  to use based on whatever was on previously. 

So it’s a straight forward deal.  Go up on roof take pictures of damage. Submit claim for owner, install.  Upon completion the roof is inspected by the city and insurance agents rep and a check paid 

The only variable is how soon.  

Yet customer after customer would delay, claim they knew a buddy, would do the job themselves, etc.  (Most insurance policies don’t cover owner replacement)  Or sometimes so many storm chasers would hit the same city that poor homeowners would have people knocking on their door endlessly. 

The owner  has 1 year from date of storm to get paid for the job.  In heavy hailstorm regions it’s not uncommon for most of the roofs to be damaged.  That can be thousands of roofs. 

There are only so many days where a crew will do roofing.  Obviously not on windy or rainy/ snowy extreme cold days. Or days that threaten  high winds, rain, or snow. Typically roofs are not replaced in the winter due to the need to  seal tabs.  

Really pushing it in Northern states there may only be 180-200 days of roofing in a year.  That includes Sundays which some locations prohibit.  Assuming a crew big enough to tear off and relay a house in a day ( big crew)  

The variable of how soon  becomes important  but 90-95% of homeowners delay.  “Oh the roof is only 1-2-3-5 etc years old it’ll be fine”,  or some other delaying excuse

Here are the pictures of your roof.  The insurance company will pay for this, call your agent.  Nearly everyone that I’d approach needed time to think- wanted to talk to his father- brother- mother priest or  someone.  

A month or two later  with Winter coming they’d call me and ask when could I do the job.  By that time most crews were booked.  

I got tired of either having to high pressure people or disappoint them later and found another job.  

Ipoopshovel again said:

I think a lot of it is dealership-specific. Though I also wonder if it’s a generational thing. 

My Dad sold...and I mean SOLD cars for 30 years. I don’t get the sense that he was “pushy,” but he *did* do everything in his power to get a person into the car they wanted...or at least something comparable they could afford.

I gave up on the local dealer who had a leftover ‘17 Focus RS.

Their attitude was “Here’s our ridiculous lowball offer for your trade, and we’re not budging on the sale price. Take it or leave it.”

Exactly.  That’s how a lot of fixed price dealers work. They sell you the new car at a deep enough discount without any haggling and make their profit off your trade in.  

In the end the deal is actually worse. 

But yes it is a generational thing too every generation has to learn how to buy cars.  

My dad bought a new company paid for car every two years.  So obviously he knew how to get a fair deal and exactly what fair was.  

My first new  car I tried to  buy  when I was in the Navy.  I thought I could buy a 1967 Corvette convertible 327 fuelie   4 speed  for $100 over dealer invoice.  

That’s what dad paid for his cars, $100 over 

Never did get the new Corvette

frenchyd said:

As to how car dealers work politicians to improve things for themselves. They are no different than any business owner with the resources.  Maybe a little more crude and less oily than the good ones can achieve their goals.

Car dealerships are different. The difference is that they aren't just lobbying for loosened regulations and tax breaks like any other business, it's that they're lobbying to keep laws in place which artificially require their businesses to exist at a certain geographic concentration, without which there would be a helluva lot less dealerships. The only downside of that, to the average person, is that people who live out in BFE would have to drive an hour to two to find a dealership, including when they need their new cars serviced, or the dealership would have to pay for a tow truck to collect the car Tesla-style.

Mike said:

This is my problem too. Something happened. When I was 19 and bagging groceries, I was always taken seriously and offered test drives. Now that I'm in my early forties and earning quite a bit more, I get the filter.

I'm at a Chevy dealer. I pull up in a $40,000 Volt from two years ago, point at my car and tell the Salesbro that the lease is up in two weeks. He tells me he can't get keys for a V6 Camaro, unless, you know, I put in a deposit.

Meanwhile, he's hanging out with a woman from the front desk, who keeps telling me I'm definitely a Camaro guy.

How do you filter as a timewaster someone who has your brand of product, which actually costs more, has a fixed date to replace that product? I've proved ability to afford and I've proved need to purchase. I really think I was a slam dunk.

If there were a monopoly, I'd imagine running out the clock would make me desperate, but there are cars for sale everywhere. There are Chevy dealers everywhere. There are salespeople everywhere. I've always thought the sales ethos was close today. Your customer may come back after sleeping on it, or they may not, so close today.

I bought a car off the internet that weekend. 

Has to be an individual dealer thing. 

I showed up to a Chevy dealer in my lowered BRZ with a helmet and said I wanted to sit in and test drive the SS 1LE. Told him I wouldn't be purchasing anything that day as I was going to test drive an STi and possibly 1-2 other cars. 

Went and got the keys, we took it for a spin.

Shoutout to Mazda and S-Plan, then.  

My last experience was awesome.  We bought a brand-new Mazda 5 for the wife the same day we test drove it.  We took it for a spin, stopped out to get some lunch and decided to do it.  We had already had financing, so that part of the "negotiation" was "my credit union will give me x.xx%, if you can beat it, I'll book it through you."  S-Plan made sure that it was a no-haggle deal.   It was great :)

In reply to ddavidv :

Yeah and there's a 80/20 chance that one guy was either a salesman or the only one of the bunch who bothered testing the static pressures of the ductwork.


But I bet there's an equally low chance that any of the others you brought in checked them either.

Appleseed said:

So...you're buying a Goldwing? They took you seriously, and offered a test ride? That's unheard of. Never offered a test ride. Ever.

Actually, both the local Harley shop and BMW shop near me push test rides.     Both are the mentality of "Here's the bike, here are what the buttons do,   see you in an hour".

The metric bike shops are escorted rides around the block if you have financing setup.

Metric bike test rides? No such thing around here. Probably why I have two Triumphs.

ddavidv said:

Metric bike test rides? No such thing around here. Probably why I have two Triumphs.

Because squids.

ddavidv said:

Metric bike test rides? No such thing around here. Probably why I have two Triumphs.

First time I ever encountered that, too. Only avaialble on the Goldwing though - guess that's a slightly different demographic than your average motorcycle buyer.

The sales/buyer relationship is interesting. It is evolving on both sides. 

I fully understand what frenchy was trying to say. It was highlighted by the post regarding home heating system replacement. A full and open honest salesman would likely mention the leaking duct work. Many assume it is a money grab. But that is where the long-term relationship thing comes in. If the furnace shop wants to build a customer relationship they should tell them the full story but also highlight the specific must do work separately. As in, here is the hard furnace replacement costs. Then mention the other work and what is code change versus what is improvement.

For vehicle sales there is a lot of pressure to get a great deal rather than build a relationship. On both sides it can change the dynamic. I bought a car recently mostly on line. I found the salesman to be understanding that I may never return to the dealer again but also he put a good foot forward to at least invite us too return for service. Some customers may have jumped on that as him trying to trick me back to get more money but it was very much informative not selling. 

I want respectable service and don't expect them to act as servants. I will pay more at the hardware store a few miles past the closest one because they provide more than basic "look in aisle...um...it's near the plungers over there." Service. 

Try an email to the sales manager of the Harley Davidson dealer and relay your story. Let him/her know what you want to test ride X and want a quote on your trade. If you don't hear back in a week forget they exist. 

Oh and I think the auto dealers association. Really should look hard at what internet music distribution di to music companies and how illegal cab services are ending legal cab service.

Eventually someone will get the spark going that the auto dealers association is now a lobbying dinosaur and CarMax, Carvana, and Tesla can drive more political support. 

Then we can all complain about how there are no brand specific factory supported service center to fix our new cars' software glithes!!

In reply to Advan046 : Well said,  

Regarding the Harley dealer, their sales have been in the toilet lately as us Baby Boomers pass into retirement and buying new motorcycles is a very low priority.  

On the other hand Harley is very actively working on getting E bikes ( motorcycles?)  into the market which is going to take a great big ton of rethinking from the dealers perspective.  I see a wonderful opportunity opening up there and frankly I’d love to give it a go.  

 At least the CEO of GM agrees with you regarding the future of car dealerships.  She sees more and more young people using short term usage/Rental instead of purchasing.  

Eventually with  Self drive technology accepted , people will just call for a car suitable to their needs to deliver itself to their door and drive them where they want to go.  

Look at the electric scooter as an early example.