It's official, the word "Grassroots" is now meaningless outside of GRM.

Hell my Corolla would be officially un-grassroots! I gotta tell the ladies I'm driving a big-money car now!

Keith Tanner wrote:

Duke wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: What's the magic absolute threshold? Let me guess, just a bit more than you can afford

Something under $50,000 at an absolutely ridiculous maximum. To be an "everyman's race car", it should be something around $10,000-$15,000 maximum. Less is better.

That puts a Spec Miata right at the very top of the budget range, FYI.

Perfect. That was more or less the intent.

The only people clamoring to be able to claim to be grassroots, are the ones that aren't. Funny how that works!

As stated, the literal definition of grassroots rules out anything over $50k, because at the end of the day, if you earn under $30/h, you literally can NOT spend $100's of thousands of dollars on racing. Its not physically possible. You aren't grassroots if you have a berkeley-ton of money. Doesn't matter if you do "all the work yourself", and lets face it, once again, the simple matter of having ALL that money allows you to do a professional "grassroots" job of the work by having the right tools, the right skills (or training) and money to throw at even the simple problems that get in us regular schmucks way.

Oh yea, $2k work benches are grassroots. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!

"Grassroots" is like pornography. I may not be able to define it, but I sure know when I see it.

A 50k racecar is cheap when I hear my coworkers talk about how much their kid's travel basketball/hockey/baseball costs.

I've scoffed and harumphed at a "shoestring budget" reference a time or two.

Then again I haven't raced in 11 years so who the berkeley am I to judge?

Grassroots is relative. To me, Manor is sort or a grassroots effort in F1. They are not doing it with any factory support and struggling against the might of the big boys. Likewise, there are grassroots efforts in Indycar, SCCA, and even NASA. It is not always building a car out of a rusty screw and duct tape. Keep in mind that there is a wide range of readers of GRM, and where would they all go if every article was about how to turn a Festiva into an autocross car for $7?

Duke wrote:

SVreX wrote: Would it be grassroots if he built it for $200K?

No. Grassroots: Noun 1. The common or ordinary people, especially as contrasted with the leadership or elite of a political party, social organization, etc.; the rank and file. Adjective 5. Of, relating to, or involving the common people, especially as contrasted with or separable from an elite. There is a strongly implied "everyman" factor. It's not just a matter of the relative percentage under professional budget - there is also an absolute threshold of affordability that needs to be set pretty low. I think the car in question is pretty cool, but I cannot see it as "grassroots". I love privateers, too, but simply not having the factory behind you doesn't mean you're "grassroots".

OK, then what would a grassroots WRC car be?

I am not defending this guy (I know nothing about him). But I think your definition is lacking.

Any dollar amount is just a line in the sand.

My son had dreams of driving WRC. It's all he thought about from the time he was about 10 until he was 25.

He collected parts, he swooned over the drivers.

He never got the chance.

But if he had, he would have had to build a car that would be legal and as competitive as possible in my garage for what he could have raised. I have no idea where he would have come up with $100K, but that is probably the threshold he would have had to be near to even think about entering.

A $50K car would not have been sufficient to enter any events.

And if he had done it, it would have ABSOLUTELY been "of the common people". It would have been a man who made less than $20K per year putting everything he had into an effort, begging, borrowing, and swapping his way through it, and building the thing almost entirely out of blood, sweat, and tears.

If that's not what grassroots is, then I don't know what is.

So, I would suggest that a $100K WRC car could very well be grassroots (though this one may not be).

In reply to SVreX:

I get your point; truly, I do. But we both know it's academic - nobody in that position is EVER going to build a $100k WRC car in a shed on a minimum salary. So TECHNICALLY it could conceivably have been a "grassroots" effort, but the only way it would actually come to pass would be by leaving the realm of grassroots behind.

I've already stipulated that I don't think the magazine should limit itself to cars that fit my definition.

In reply to Duke:

If you say so...

The same kid has switched passions, and has easily spent twice that on videography equipment, in spite of his minimal salary. He was one step off an Emmy nomination last year, which is pretty much the film equivalent to the WRC.

But, I guess it can't be done...

Once you're at the point where you can feasibly field a $100,000 privateer race car, you may be an upstart, you may be plucky, you may be David in a field of Goliaths, but I can't see calling you grassroots anymore.

Like I said, I disagree with your definition.

As is anybody's right.

My son is probably sitting on $200K in videographic equipment.

It's not the dollar amount that defines the effort as grassroots. It's how he got there.

He builds his own processors for high def editing. He writes some of his own software. He machines his own camera lens rings, modifies apertures, and mixes and matches lenses from various pieces of equipment. He trades glass, and swaps for lighting equipment. He does his own developing (when working with film). He funds things by buying, fixing and reselling camera and computer equipment on Ebay. He spends probably 5 hours per day online learning how to do various stuff. He is completely self-taught, and has the support of no professional "team".

He does his videography pretty much the same way I build a Challenge car. Creativity, and sweat.

Living on about a $30K salary.

I don't know what to call him. "Plucky"??

SVreX wrote: Living on about a $30K salary. I don't know what to call him. "Plucky"??

But he's not. He obviously has a thriving part-time gig doing said film things which have to be accounted for in the form of time. That's an expense (with revenue attached to it).

No different than me; my gross yearly revenue when combining all the things I do for my racing is easily worth $30k per year if you paid somebody if not more. But don't confuse "worth" or "value" with actual money spent.

I guess thats the thing, your son doesn't (probably) have $200k worth of gear that if he tried to part out would get him $200k... so its not really $200k. That's like saying my $55k rally car is worth $55k... its not, but it cost $55k to build (and I bought it for $20k, so you do the math).

Having said that, I personally HAVE spent over $150k in after tax dollars chasing my racing dreams. But that's been over a decade of time.

In reply to HiTempguy:

I am not confusing "worth" and "value". Don't even care.

That had nothing to do with the point. The point was are his efforts grassroots or not?

By your argument, $20XX Challenge cars are not grassroots, because they have more "worth".

Since your racing efforts are worth $30K per year, I guess you are not grassroots either.

Don't confuse "grassroots" with "value" or "worth".

Money has almost nothing to do with grassroots.

But a grassroots effort can certainly add value to a project.

...i won't get sucked into a stupid argument about the definition of "grassroots", i won't get sucked into a stupid argument about the definition of "grassroots", i won't get sucked into a stupid argument about the definition of "grassroots"...

E36 M3.

Don't confuse "grassroots" with "value" or "worth". Money has almost nothing to do with grassroots.

I know, right!

Anyone can be grassroots. Just ask these guys.

Keith Tanner wrote: Did he buy a factory rally car or did he build one that could compete with them? If I were the GRM editors, I'd probably regret the word Grassroots in the title of the magazine, as it seems to be interpreted by some people as "something done for a little bit less than I could afford".

"Regret" is kind of a strong word, but we do recognize that the use of the word has changed since the name was first coined. Of course there's also a quarter-century of name recognition now, so changing the name to "Moderately-priced-but-still-attainable Motorsports" would probably be a mistake. And "Hustler" is already taken.

As for the term itself, I suppose I've always seen it as more of a mindset than a number. And I think the mindset exists at every level of the sport. If I go to a Ferrari Challenge event, I'm probably going to be able to hang out with the guys swapping brake pads between sessions a lot more comfortably than the ones shuttling VIPs around in golf carts.

Basically once you lose the ability to tell the difference between blood stains and grease stains on your shirt, or the inside of your helmet smells like a middle school gym locker, you're my people. I suppose for me ultimately "grassroots" has some sort of blue-collar or filth-based connotations, regardless of price of entry.

SVreX wrote: Don't confuse "grassroots" with "value" or "worth".

By definition, money has everything to do with grassroots.

Its cute though how you believe your opinion somehow changes the definition of the word :p

I couldn't love GRM the magazine or the website more, and believe me, I don't like to be the P.C police or anything or the guy who has a problem with everything thing, but I do have a problem with this... I find it a bit offensive that you use terms like fescue and cheap-ass for your little descriptions or whatever in the discussions. I myself do not eat grass roots in my salad, but I feel sensitivity for people who do, as I am a student living among them, and my Girlfriend is pursuing her masters in the sod-fields.

These horticulture terms, although I'm pretty sure are not even real words, are obviously meant to resemble the words used to describe people who are not quite poor and have real lawns, and it appears that they are used on these boards in a joking sense which, as I view it, makes light of people who shop on craigslist to save a few bucks.

In reply to HiTempguy:

You mean by the definition you wrote?

Here's the dictionary's definition:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grassroots

Huh. What do you know- no mention of money.

I think it is significantly less than adorable how much smarter you are than then rest of us.

Don't be that guy.

I'm done. I think we can run with JG's "Hustler" and call it a day.

Grassroots means at the base level, but aiming upwards. No dollar pre-requisite/ceiling/limit/jargon will ever define it.

SVreX wrote: Don't be that guy.

"the common or ordinary people, especially as contrasted with the leadership or elite of a political party, social organization, etc.; the rank and file."

Common or ordinary people are not rich. Its pretty straightforward.

Funny how I am of the opinion that you are being "that guy".

Edit- Further to that, even in "Grassroots Motorsports" guise, there is clearly a hierarchy of racing types, followed by classes within those types of racing that differentiate between "grassroots" and "non-grassroots".

Didn't GRM start as auto-x? What is essentially the "bottom" of the hierarchy.