Kazoospec's "Change my mind" thread

Indy-Guy said:

This Mariner blue:

It's because the purple rollbar sets the blue off.

Appleseed said:

 

All talk of color is irrelevant because all colors want to be Petty blue.

 

 

 

GOD_DAMNED_RIGHT. My Dad & Brother got to meet the King himself last weekend!

Alright, it hasn't been 24 hours without responses, but currently it appears my Starlight Blue Mica is running behind Smurf Blue, Petty Blue (not a Miata color BTW), BRG and some sort of John Cleese wrap that I didn't know was available from Mazda.  The current score seems to be roughly 50 to 0.  Apparently, my sense of vehicular aesthetics never rose above the "stick on trim at Autozone" level (or all the rest of you have unfulfilled Smurfette fantasies).   Therefore, I humbly eat my shoe, confess my error and acknowledge that Starlight Blue Mica is a horrible color, which should never be applied to any vehicle, let alone a Miata/MX5.

Since this thread is intended to be participatory, the next poster may throw his/her proverbial "hat into the ring" by issuing another "prove me wrong" challenge.  If no further entries are received by my arrival at home this evening, I'll throw out another one, which will be non-automotive related.

THIS IS THE OP'S APOLOGY/VICTORY LAP AND MARKS THE END OF THE FIRST "PROVE ME WRONG" CHALLENGE.

(See how this works?)

Mariner Blue also looks great on NDs

poopshovel again said:

Appleseed said:

False. Mariner blue is the greatest blue to adorn a Miata.

This is the correct position. Just needs white wheels.

Nah, silver RPF1s FTW

In reply to kazoospec :

Let me try.

Strut front ends are just as good as independent if they're set up right. The type of suspension has less to do with handling and steering feel than the expertise and goals behind it.

Strut front suspension:

Fully independent double A-arm front suspension:

Prove me wrong.

In reply to dculberson :

Depends on your goals. I hate the way any strut based car rides. A double a arm has better ride characteristics than any strut. I've never found one that's even close.

~~~ Type-R be damned, FWD still stinks ~~~

...change my mind 

nderwater said:

~~~ Type-R be damned, FWD still stinks ~~~

 

 

...change my mind 

One at a time!  (You can call "next" if you want)

dculberson said:

In reply to kazoospec :

Let me try.

Strut front ends are just as good as independent if they're set up right. The type of suspension has less to do with handling and steering feel than the expertise and goals behind it.

Strut front suspension:

Fully independent double A-arm front suspension:

Prove me wrong.

the problem is you are comparing a car suspension designed to be mostly sporty vs a car suspension designed to be strictly luxurious (in your above example). But even with that said your example of double A arm suspension is GM's B-body platform (also similar to the G-body platform) which has been proven in many racing series to be a very capable front suspension with a little refinement.

Not to discredit the Bimmer's suspension design as it is also proven itself to be capable, but needs a better comparison to be a better argument

dculberson said:

In reply to kazoospec :

Let me try.

Strut front ends are just as good as independent if they're set up right. The type of suspension has less to do with handling and steering feel than the expertise and goals behind it.

Strut front suspension:

Fully independent double A-arm front suspension:

 

 

By altering steering knuckle height, control arm length, and all sorts of other things, you can make a double a arm suspension do just about anything you want.

I call dibs after double wishbone suspension is proven superior. 

Drawings are not real life! What matters is the act of driving the car not what the engineers say should be better. Drive an m3 and tell me it’s awful because it has struts and I’ll say - get thee behind me Satan!

How can I effect camber gain in a strut suspension?

How do I effect camber gain in a double arm suspension?

Strut suspensions are far superior in making more trunk / engine compartment space and being easier/cheaper to build.

When setup for a specific purpose a strut suspension can effectively be as good, but if you want to be able to make adjustments, or go to the extreme ends of performance, that is where it falls short.

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BTW - having an argument over which color is better is nonsensical.  Color appeal is SUBJECTIVE and as such, cannot be rationally argued other then "I like it" which is effectively an emotional argument and as such there is no real basis for arguing. A poll or survey yes, and argument, no.  It the same thing as arguing over which music is better, or which artwork is better (not that that stops anyone from doing it, or giving out awards).

I *suspect* that a lot of the issues we run into in trying to go fast with production based strut cars is down to them being more difficult to rejigger after lowering.

A sane suspension will have decent camber gain and roll center location around its designed ride height.

It will be significantly harder to reset that working range after lowering a strut based car. You can't really do a "Shelby drop" on a strut car like you can on an old Mustang, or other double-A-arm car. So you end up leaning more heavily on camber plates and cranked up static negative camber. I don't know, but I find it plausible that the average double-A-arm arrangement can have a broader range of travel where geometry is sane, reducing the need to move pivot points.

The M3 is a good example, but what about the super-hardcore iterations of the 911? Strut front ends, and you might not feel you need to drop them 2" to go autocrossing or do track days, so they get to keep their design ride height to a great extent.

If I had a clean sheet of paper to design a car for driving awesomeness, it would almost certainly get double-A-arms. But I could see having some sort of crazy packaging idea that made it worth doing struts, and expecting to be able to get it to work well as long as the ride height didn't vary wildly (or that I could choose how to make my adjustments instead of just using shorter springs).

There, that's exactly the sort of succinct, punchy, meme-worthy argument that'll decide an issue like this, right!?

aircooled said:

-------

BTW - having an argument over which color is better is nonsensical.  Color appeal is SUBJECTIVE and as such, cannot be rationally argued other then "I like it" which is effectively an emotional argument and as such there is no real basis for arguing. A poll or survey yes, and argument, no.  It the same thing as arguing over which music is better, or which artwork is better (not that that stops anyone from doing it, or giving out awards).

Actually, we proved on page 1 that mariner blue is the best color on miatas.  By a greater than 2 standard deviation margin, no less.  Silly?  Sure.  Nonsensical?  Nonsense! 

Well now, it’s clearly obvious Mariner Blue is the best Miata color!  Just another reason why its ridiculous to argue about it!

Since I've clearly won both arguments , when can I start the next one?

Well, struts vs A arms has been open for 24 hours, so I say "kick it off".  Not sure dculberson is going to concede based on a 1 vote margin, but it's probably time for something new.

Opportunity missed after the blue argument took the John Cleese turn--

Should have gone to Norwegian Blue!

I'll give it a shot.

Dark chocolate is better than milk chocolate. Prove me wrong.

Consuming ^ as I type this. Winning.

kazoospec said:

Well, struts vs A arms has been open for 24 hours, so I say "kick it off".  Not sure dculberson is going to concede based on a 1 vote margin, but it's probably time for something new.

I bow to the ultimate wisdom of the masses. I have been humbled in ways I have never known. Thank you, all one of you, for showing me the error of my ways. 

Now if you’ll excuse me I need to go create some fake accounts to guarantee a win next time

In reply to barefootskater :

Now that’s impossible to argue against. 

The Douglas DC-3 is the greatest aircraft of all time.

Prove me wrong.