Keeping it classy Chicago

In reply to Keith Tanner:

Have you read the Contract of Carriage?

I tried- couldn't find the dress code. It's buried in a mountain.

But here it is- feel free to find it and correct me

United Contract of Carriage

United Reps said they were in violation of article 21. I didn't see it.

The only thing I saw was something about being dressed "appropriately". That's not a dress code!

My point is- bad policy. That's all.

In reply to docwyte:

The 10 year old was refused because of grey leggings, then added a dress. Still refused.

I fly a lot. I understand that in order for airlines to make money they have to game the averages. That includes overselling their planes.

I also understand how much it sucks to get bumped. And finally, I never take the bonus because it is just funny money that you have to spend back to the same airline that boned you in the first place. (PS - try booking a ticket with these vouchers... its like a magic price increase!)

What really bugs me is that the airlines have the necessary data, it just doesn't make financial sense for them to use it. (Try flying first class international some time - they will hold a plane 15 minutes for you to make a connection and they will escort you from one gate to the next because they know it will not delay the landing of the second plane and that it is too expensive to shift 1st class passengers around on international flights).

But locally and standard cabin? They don't care because it doesn't pay.

SVreX wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: Have you read the Contract of Carriage? I tried- couldn't find the dress code. It's buried in a mountain. But here it is- feel free to find it and correct me United Contract of Carriage United Reps said they were in violation of article 21. I didn't see it. The only thing I saw was something about being dressed "appropriately". That's not a dress code! My point is- bad policy. That's all.

Definitely a stupid rule, but an overarching idiotic implementation of policy either way.

"psst, hey next time you should avoid leggings" ---- "Hey Boss, this rule is silly, see about getting it changed"

"No takers at $800? We're talking cash, not vouchers, let me read you some amenities at this hotel we're going to be bringing you to tonight, we'll pay the bar tab. No? $1200?...."

There, settled both issues for a few grand and an E-mail or two. How much is this going to cost overall?

Robbie wrote: (Try flying first class international some time - they will hold a plane 15 minutes for you to make a connection and they will escort you from one gate to the next because they know it will not delay the landing of the second plane and that it is too expensive to shift 1st class passengers around on international flights).

Funny you mention this. I flew from Ottawa to Colorado on Sunday. Ottawa-Toronto, then Toronto-Denver. You go through US customs and immigration in Toronto. My flight from Ottawa was more than a half hour late landing so I was left with a fairly short window to get through that mess, and everything was jacked up. I had to get out of the back of the plane, hoof it through quite a bit of airport, go through the 20 minute line for enhanced US security screening, then a long line for customs, then a long line for immigration. I was able to skip through the last two a little quicker because 1) apparently a green card is like a Nexus card and 2) I got pulled out of line and hustled forward due to impending boarding times. Got to my gate with 2 minutes to spare after more than an hour of screwing around.

My friend was also on the plane from Ottawa-Toronto, and was then connecting to Costa Rico. He has a million frequent flyer points (literally, a million). Obviously he was up front. He was first off the plane, was met by an Air Canada concierge at the gate and driven directly to the international terminal in a new BMW.

SVreX wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: Have you read the Contract of Carriage? I tried- couldn't find the dress code. It's buried in a mountain. But here it is- feel free to find it and correct me United Contract of Carriage United Reps said they were in violation of article 21. I didn't see it. The only thing I saw was something about being dressed "appropriately". That's not a dress code! My point is- bad policy. That's all.

That is the dress code for purchased tickets. The people denied were flying on family passes. Those passes specifically spell out no leggings allowed. It's part of the rules if you want to use those passes.

I have family that works for Marriott, so I can stay at Marriott properties for almost nothing. Part of the rules for using the Marriott family pass, is we must conduct ourselves professionally as we are representing the Marriott brand. They can revoke that pass at any time.

I think you guys are missing the point.

I have no problem with any special requirements by the company for special treatment. If they'd like to have a dress code, no problem.

I have a problem with unequal and arbitrary enforcement.

I've heard everyone refer to the rules, and can't find any link at all. Even the VP of Operations of United referred to the set above I linked.

I STRONGLY suspect the rule is NOT clearly defined, and that examples are given to staff in training sessions, which they then enforce. That would not be enforcing the rule, it would be enforcing the training example. That's not good enough. It creates an arbitrary (and sexist) enforcement.

I recently had to chaperone the high school prom. Some uptight parents started asking us to enforce the dress code, which included no spaghetti strap gowns. They had us going around forcing girls to wear shawls over their (very beautiful, and classy) gowns.

I pointed out the dress code also called for boys to wear black or blue tuxes. Some were not. I told the parents I would not make girls wear shawls, unless I could also make the boys wear shawls over their (wrong color) suits.

I think this is a very similar situation. It's sexism, pure and simple.

Hey now, don't blame all this on Chicago. The doctor in question got in trouble for having a relationship with a male patient and providing him with narcotics and he's from Kentucky.

And the leggings thing, I don't give two E36 M3s who's wearing them, ban them. In fact, ban any skintight clothes. I'm all for it.

I'm tired of seeing busted cans of biscuits and fupas and underwear. Especially the last one, too many people who either don't know that the leggings you're supposed to wear under stuff go almost see through when put on or they don't care.

Grizz wrote: Hey now, don't blame all this on Chicago. The doctor in question got in trouble for having a relationship with a male patient and providing him with narcotics and he's from Kentucky. And the leggings thing, I don't give two E36 M3s who's wearing them, ban them. In fact, ban any skintight clothes. I'm all for it. I'm tired of seeing busted cans of biscuits and fupas and underwear. Especially the last one, too many people who either don't know that the leggings you're supposed to wear under stuff go almost see through when put on or they don't care.

Doesn't matter what the Doctor did in the past.

Don't like tight clothing? Stop looking.

Why make others change their clothes because you can't control where you look.

From the last couple of flights I have done, the strange people at Walmart doing their midnight shopping was a fashion upgrade. What's with the way people dress and act on planes these days? Now get off my lawn!!!!

NOHOME wrote: I wonder if I could develop a "Bump Me" app? If you get bumped for any reason, you hit a speed- dial for a direct line to a legal rep who specializes in just this area. Let them talk to the gate-person as your fiduciary. He should be able to max out the payment and ruin their day at the same time.

You might have something there, kinda like those companies popping up that just negotiate your cable/phone/whatever bill down for you in exchange for some percentage of the savings.

Here's my take.

What the doctor did was refuse a order given by the appropriate authorities. Right or wrong, he should have gotten up and left the plane when he was instructed to. They weren't asking him if he wanted to leave, they were telling him to. He didn't comply, they made him. The doctor is clearly in the wrong.

Was United wrong to tell him to leave? Maybe. It's their plane. They own it. If they don't want to fly you, you need to leave. There is a DOT prevision that allows then to boot people for overbooking situations. He was one of the unlucky few. He needed to leave the plane.

Was it a dick move to boot him to fly their employees. Absolutely.

This is what happens when small minded people end up in positions of authority. Especially when their authority is practically absolute. They don't know how to respond when someone tells them no and usually end up responding poorly.

As far as the girls in tights. I have no problem with that. United is footing the bill. As far as I'm concerned they have absolute right to tell you the conditions they require. If they want fat men with blond hair to do 5 push-ups before boarding, they need to do it or pay their own way.

Airlines' treatment of passengers has gotten progressively worse in the past 10 years, and it's a big part of the reason I took a job that no longer requires me to travel 2-3 weeks a month.

Delta used to be the worst (my opinion), but that was mainly due to the fact that they were never less than an hour delayed. But United seems to be actively trying to torture its customers.

If you want to travel on a pass, here are the rules. If you don't abide by those rules, you don't get on a plane. They are on the back of the pass itself

Toyman01 wrote: This is what happens when small minded people end up in positions of authority. Especially when their authority is practically absolute. They don't know how to respond when someone tells them no and usually end up responding poorly.

Also - if you deal with the traveling public day in and day out, you will develop a very low opinion of the traveling public. One that's well deserved, unfortunately. Airline employees suffer constant abuse from entitled individuals who can't see the big picture all day long, which is how you end up with this us vs them black and white attitude. The less someone paid for their ticket, the more of a pain in the ass they are.

Not saying that this was handled well, just giving a bit of perspective. So it's not necessarily a matter of small minded people, but people who have been battered by experience to expect the absolute worst of everyone and who have become inflexible as a result. A bit of humanity when approaching the employee goes a very long way, more than usual. Copping an attitude from the start will backfire hard.

Stefan wrote: Doesn't matter what the Doctor did in the past.

No it's the additional information that expands this story into one shiny happy person meeting more shiny happy people.

Stefan wrote:Don't like tight clothing? Stop looking. Why make others change their clothes because you can't control where you look.

That's the laziest cop out ever, and always the first one that gets trotted out.

I can control where I look just fine. How dare I wish for the slightest bit of decorum in public places and not want whale tails and boxers all over the place anymore than I'd like shirtless fat guys in bike shorts wandering around.

You think I'm going to go out later in my current pair of shorts that has a hole that lovingly frames my junk for the world to see? No, because I was raised to know that nobody wants to see that E36 M3 and the polite thing to do is dress like you actually care about how you look. It's simple, just because you can doesn't mean you should and if more people remembered that peopleofwalmart.com wouldn't have to exist.

KyAllroad wrote: I'm kinda stunned that the offer of $800 a seat (and a new flight in 4ish hours) wasn't snapped up by more people. Clearly there is too much money in the world that these people couldn't be slightly inconvenienced for $800. My family of 4 travelers would have been: "yes please, and if you want to bump us on the next flight, please do".

I don't know about this situation, but Delta doesn't offer $800, they offer $X00 in vouchers for another flight. Those vouchers expire in a year. So they're really offering you nothing. That's why I've never taken them up. I don't pay for my tickets, work does. That's the case with a lot of travelers.

In reply to Sky_Render:

Of course it's getting worse. No one wants to pay squat for a ticket. Low budget airlines are making everyone get cheaper. They have to cut costs somewhere, be glad it's not in the maintenance bays.

It drives me crazy that everyone wants the the best in the world, but never wants to pay for it.

You want good service from an airline, pay for it and fly first class. I promise you they are never overbooked and you will never be asked to leave the plane.

Bobzilla wrote:

Appleseed wrote: What are you freaking out about? This is a normal Monday in Chiraq.

Pretty much my first thought.

I really wish people would stop using that term.

Also, the United thing has nothing to do with Chicago except for the fact that the event happened to take place there, that's all United.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

That's a good point. A good autocross friend of mine, is a Lowes manager. He deals with insane amounts of abuse. I'd be fired after 5 minutes of having his job.

I’ve never been bumped off a flight but twice, I’ve been “asked” to trade my emergency isle seat with an obese passenger in another row….why plan ahead and book the flight when emergency isle seats are still available or pay more to get a larger business class seat when I can just waddle onto the plane, “discover” I don’t fit, and let the flight attendants roll my problem squarely onto RX Reven’s back; that’s the ticket.

The other thing that pi$$es me off is that I’ve often been asked to remove my laptop bag from overhead storage and place it under the seat in front of me to make room for other passenger’s larger bags. Awesome, my reward for being a considerate passenger and bringing less volume onto the plane than others is to forfeit the leg room that I need (bad knee) and paid for…I now have a laptop bag with an accordion expansion section so I can poof it up so it looks like it won’t fit under the seat but still be able to collapse it in the event no overhead space is available to avoid having to check it into luggage.

In reply to Grizz:

Well, I guess that's me told then, eh? I guess you've never made mistakes in your life? Never paid your debts to society? Dude's 69 years old, an internist and from Vietnam, no chance he's seen some E36 M3 in his life, eh? I'm sure its all his fault that United is a corrupt organization that is abusing its customers.

Its always about blaming the victim though, right? Personal responsibility only applies to others and not you because you're above reproach?

Or maybe, just maybe its really about western society pulling their collective puritanism out of their butts along with the stick they used to shove their heads up there in the first place.

In reply to Toyman01:

Except its been shown that paying more only works if you pay exponentially more, paying a little more just gets you the same basic service as everyone else in "Cattle Class"

If it truly worked that way, you'd get better service for paying for more cable channels or faster internet speeds. Instead you all get treated the same. Only business accounts get reasonable service level guarantees.

The sheer lack of empathy displayed by some people here is truly sad and disgusting.