Latest dealer scam: Used Car "Reconditioning Fee"

Flight Service wrote: This thread has de-evolved for some reason and I have no idea why

happens often when datsun is involved

Datsun1500 wrote: Those are all relevant questions for an out the door price. Without that information you will get an answer like $20,000 for the car $500 tax $200 tags $20,700 for you.

I'd be happy with that. I don't care if the price that the sales guy is giving me is his lowest price, just give me a G-D figure, fer chrissakees!

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I expect the seller of anything, from a pack of gum to a house, to open the negotiation with a stated price.

In response to the rest of you:

I give up. I want a new car, I can afford a new car, but I'm already exhausted from playing the game, and it hasn't even begun yet. I'm too tired to keep going.

I'll wait for the Scion iM to come out. Scion is supposed to have "Pure Price" and maybe, just maybe, I will be able to find a dealer that will honor that and sell me a car at MSRP, without tacking on the Desert Protection Package, and the nitrogen-filled tires package and the VIN-etching package. It's highly doubtful, though.

I wonder if car manufacturers understand that there are people like me? I wonder if they know that there are people so put off by dealer practices that they won't buy a car at all? Chances are, they simply don't care.

How? they can pick any starting price off the top of their head. Add 8.1% sales tax, that's what the tax is here. Add whatever fees they want to charge, doc fees, any old fee they want. That's a number.

In Nevada, buyers do their own DMV work, so the registration fees aren't of any concern to the dealer.

I figure if they can't do that, they aren't interested in selling cars. I'm pretty sure most dealers (at least around here) aren't interested in selling cars. Instead, they are interested in selling add-ons and loans. The car itself is sort of an aside.

I actually went into the (only) Subaru dealer in town and offered MSRP + sales tax + $400 DOC fee on a Forester, and the salesman told me, "Why should I sell you the car for that money, when I can sell it to the next guy for a lot more?" I told him he had a point, and I left.

In Nevada, sales tax is applied to the purchase price of the car, period. There is technically no such thing as a trade-in. When the dealer purchases your existing car, it is considered a separate deal. When I bought my Scion, used but with a trade-in, I had to do two different sets of paperwork - One to sell my car, the other to buy the Scion. I paid sales tax on the price of the Scion. The dealer did not pay sales tax to buy my car, because there is no sales tax when buying a car from a private party.

Datsun1500 wrote: In reply to wbjones: Hitemp started it

like my Mom always said … "you don't have to finish it" … in other words … you don't HAVE to have the last word

EvanR wrote:

Datsun1500 wrote: Those are all relevant questions for an out the door price. Without that information you will get an answer like $20,000 for the car $500 tax $200 tags $20,700 for you.

I'd be happy with that. I don't care if the price that the sales guy is giving me is his lowest price, just give me a G-D figure, fer chrissakees! Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I expect the seller of *anything*, from a pack of gum to a house, to open the negotiation with a stated price. In response to the rest of you: I give up. I want a new car, I can afford a new car, but I'm already exhausted from playing the game, and it hasn't even begun yet. I'm too tired to keep going. I'll wait for the Scion iM to come out. Scion is supposed to have "Pure Price" and maybe, just maybe, I will be able to find a dealer that will honor that and sell me a car at MSRP, without tacking on the Desert Protection Package, and the nitrogen-filled tires package and the VIN-etching package. It's highly doubtful, though. I wonder if car manufacturers understand that there are people like me? I wonder if they know that there are people so put off by dealer practices that they won't buy a car at all? Chances are, they simply don't care.

I got around this by using a buyer … I told them what I wanted, they did all the work, searched all over and finally found me 3 to choose from … I took the one that most closely matched my wants (this because of limited color, and my stated option list… + end of model yr, and that color not being offered the following yr)

she found me the car, did all the pricing ( I probably didn't get all the discounts, but neither did I have to listen to a single word from any sales person or from any finance puke)

car was delivered to my house

logdog wrote: My local grocery store should advertise milk for $.99* *plus $2.00 refrigeration fee.

There is a grocery store chain in Georgia called Food Depot that tries to pull things like that, although they're usually more like 10% of the price. I don't shop there.

When I make an offer on a car, it is the out the door price. They can back-cipher and add any fee they want to to get to my number.

Back when I used to live in Nigeria, it was explained to me that unlike the quid-pro-quo transactions I was raised with, all business in Africa was akin to that between the lion and the zebra.

It was just a matter of figuring out who was going to be the Lion and who was going to be the Zebra. Knowing that made life much easier.

Car buying is much the same, you have two parties who are negotiating in bad faith, and its only considered a good deal if one party feels it was a bad deal. Plan accordingly.

When I buy a car, the first thing I ask is for the number that is going to be on the check. I ask them to please put some thought into it because that is the only check I have. I have been told a few times that this is not possible.

I really don't understand the hatred for "the game". Do your homework. Figure out what the car's worth and what you're willing to pay. If you can't locate a single dealer that will sell it to you for that amount, maybe you're just wrong. Either adjust the car specs or the price point.

Particularly with new cars, you have the power. They need your money more than you need their car. There are other dealers. You can drive anything that will get you to work until you find the ideal car at the ideal price. But in the meantime, they have a huge amount of capital tied up in inventory that is providing exactly zero ROI until they sell it.

^This. Let 'em play all the games they want, driving to other dealerships is easy in the US. Look up the MSRP and go from there, it's not rocket science, just hardball.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

wbjones wrote:

Mike wrote:

G_Body_Man wrote: I can't tell which is worse, this, or de-horsing the customer.

De-horsing the customer. This, you'll see in full before you sign if you pay attention.

ok … guess I'm not up on the latest internet verbiage … what is de-horsing ?

When you trade your car in, then the dealer lets you leave in a car you don't own yet. Then they call you back in a couple days and say the financing fell thru and you have to return the car or pay more for financing, different car, etc.

When I was a young airman home on leave someone backed into my VW bug and crushed the front end. This was when VW bugs were still cheap cars. I had been contemplating a new car anyway so spent a few hours at a dealer being a pest until the sales manager "gave" me $1000 for my bug to get the payments on the new car where I wanted them to be.

Leave ended, drove my new car back to base. A week later I get the "we couldn't get you financed at that rate" call. I knew my bug was already on its way to becoming a refrigerator so I told them I had driven the car back to base, it now had 3500 miles plus whatever it would take to get back to them and I would be there by the weekend and expected my VW or $1000 in my hand. Funny how they managed to get me my original rate after that.

BTW, I'm also trying to figure out what "value" a dealership could provide when selling a new car. They're all selling the same cars. Personally I would prefer to buy a car from a vending machine (maybe it would look like this):

A Tesla-type arrangement would also be better IMO.

The dealership can only put some extra non-factory bits on your car which only saves you a little driving and effort - and in practice costs you a ton of money.

So the "value" a dealership provides in the new-car buying experience seems to be somewhere at or below zero to me.

Datsun1500 wrote: They offer the same value as any retail store, they have the product in stock. You can't buy it without them. You might not like it, but that's the way it is.

So you're saying that the only value they provide at all is in having the car to sell. Doesn't that support HiTempGuy's argument that the closest thing to value that they have to offer is a low price, and therefore the customer should simply seek the lowest possible price? People generally do the same with retail stores.

Datsun1500 wrote: If I buy a TV from best buy, and you get the same one on sale a month later, why should I care? I am happy with what I paid, I don't care what you paid. People get charged different prices for groceries, hotel rooms, plane tickets, etc. but I've never seen a berkeley us air thread.

Airlines and even hotels don't jerk customers around as much as car dealerships, and the amounts of money at play are far smaller. Still having a hard time believing you've never seen a rant about airlines! Heck there are some ads on TV now ranting about how air miles work.

In reply to Datsun1500:

Are the stewardesses hot on Berkeley us air?

bgkast wrote: In reply to Datsun1500: Are the stewardesses hot on Berkeley us air?

You should check out the documentary, it's a Japanese film

See, I don't mind that Datsun has an opinion, we all do.

I simply mind his "my opinion is correct, your opinion is wrong you dirty filthy peasant" attitude. A couple of word changes like "I think there is more value to a dealership than lowest price" would have instantly changed the tone but kept his message consitent, with a bit of humbleness added in.

If you act like an shiny happy person, be prepared to be treated as such. Act and play nice, and I will too Gameboy has argued my perspective well, I have no further comment besides a "what he said".

In my new business, I am currently undercutting the crap out of another business with a monopoly in the market. I can see them being sorry in a couple years as my market share skyrockets. I'm still earning friggin' good ROI in the business, but am offering better everything.

That is the sore spot with dealerships. They all play the exact bullE36 M3 game. If all dealers were known to have price as bought direct from the factory, and then their required x% of profit to be a successful business, no one would bat an eye.

And you are kidding yourself if your argument is that nobody does that for any other business. I can find out that information about virtually anything nowadays. I like it when people earn money. But if you gouge so you can be a $100mil millionaire vs fair price and be a $50mil millionaire, my opinion of you is much different.

GameboyRMH wrote: BTW, I'm also trying to figure out what "value" a dealership could provide when selling a new car.

A dealership could, if they were so inclined, provide a quality service department that will bend over backwards to get a good customer taken care of after the sale. A lot of dealers will, at the very lease, give preferential treatment at their service department if you bought the car from them.

MadScientistMatt wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: BTW, I'm also trying to figure out what "value" a dealership could provide when selling a new car.

A dealership could, if they were so inclined, provide a quality service department that will bend over backwards to get a good customer taken care of after the sale. A lot of dealers will, at the very lease, give preferential treatment at their service department if you bought the car from them.

Only one of those is even related to the new car sale though...this sounds more like the business of a regular auto service shop.

MadScientistMatt wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: BTW, I'm also trying to figure out what "value" a dealership could provide when selling a new car.

A dealership could, if they were so inclined, provide a quality service department that will bend over backwards to get a good customer taken care of after the sale. A lot of dealers will, at the very lease, give preferential treatment at their service department if you bought the car from them.

I don't know if it's still this way, but in the past, most dealerships didn't seem to put much incentive out there for a good service dept … they didn't WANT to keep your old car running, they were only interested in selling you a new one … and I do realize that not all were this bad … just seemed like that was the standard MO

I agree dealers do some shady stuff. I personally run a dealership and have a high moral code. I believe in advertising prices we can honor to everyone. We are completely transparent thru out the entire process and yet lose deals to these shady dealers. We have even gone to the extent of showing the clients what they are doing and our consumers still believe they will get a better deal with these places. I agree with everything posted here and feel all dealers should be up front with their customers. Unfortunately we lose deals to these dealers and it is not until after the fact, usually 2-3 years down the road when the client tries to get out of a car they were buried in, do they finally realize they made a mistake. Then we turn into the bad guys when we share they owe way more then the vehicle is worth. I am always open to suggestions on what will allow my dealership to succeed. However I refuse to stoop to the tactics of these other dealers as I want our clients to return long term. The clients we have made over the years continue to come back, but still question us with research they have done online. The one I hate the most is when franchise dealers take out the manufacturers destination charge to show a lower price then add it back in at signing. This frustrates me most as there is no way to not pay that charge as it is a part of the cost of the vehicle to the dealer. We have even changed our business model to focus on volume over gross profit. This has resulted in less than $250 per new vehicle and under $1000 per used. Yet consumers still get burned by these bait and switch tactics of other dealers. All vehicles new and used need to go thru recon to be prepped for the lot. we have tried just cleaning to cut costs for the lot, but almost always need to run the used vehicles back to recon because our clients want them to look better. So the issue we run into is we lose money on some occasions when we need to do this. If we do it before the vehicle gets to the lot we do add to our cost based on the level of reconditioning needed. Never has it ever cost $2000, however with rough vehicles, it can take upwards of 2 full days of reconditioning to get ready for the lot. We limit the cost regardless to $500 but never show as an additional fee. It is part of our cost on the vehicle and ultimately reduces our profit. So bottom line is we are as up front with our clients as anyone can possibly be, yet consumers still flock to these dealers that have a shady business practice. Worst of all they buy from them. I would love your feedback as our business gets by, but would love to thrive. And I will not stoop to these decieving tactics.

Old thread.  Well revived by Scott it seems.  

What makes me wonder is ...  now I know I live in and contiguous to a low-class part of the region ... but I just don't get how many punters I see with those paper dealer tags and the car has bodywork damage.

You bought a car with bodywork damage?  From a dealer?  

Of course I have ranted before here about how E36 M3ty the drivers with those paper tags are.  Every time I get roughed over on the roads it's an EV, Accord or something with a paper tag - 90 % of the time it's the paper tag brigade.

Must be from those 'buy here - pay here' lots mentioned on this forum quite often.

Also I skipped over the second page but ... isn't this why CARMAX exists?  

In reply to EvanR :

Isn't that pretty much what Auto Trader is anyway?  I was thinking about buying a new regal wagon because a nation wide search showed that they were available as cheap as $24k new, which quickly turns into 38K out the door once you add back the discounts almost no one will qualify for, the trade in value of the 2012 or newer car you must be planning to trade in, etc.

I never buy new.

I try to only buy private but that is often hard to do to get the car you want that someone doesn't still have a massive loan against.

So I try to find what I want at independent mom-n-pop dealers that have been around a long time. No new car franchise dealers; nothing good can come from that in my experiences. Last car I bought was from a one man operation with low overhead. Car was a little cosmetically challenged but that is okay because the wife doesn't take good care of her stuff. I probably saved over a grand from buying it from a 'big' dealer.

I was always under the assumption that the advertised price was cost of vehicle + any "reconditioning" work + mark up.