learn me french cleat storage systems and fold down work benches

so I going to bring this over here, after my thread on garage journal degenerated into an English lesson. straight copy and paste of my first and last posts in that thread. those guys are a little too uptight for me, I believe....

so the French cleat storage racks are very appealing for my garage renovation. I've seen it in a few of the garage builds around here, and seems like the best solution for some storage problems im having. what's the best size/dimensions for this? any good links? the blueprints I found online call for something like 6 inch cleats, which seems a bit overkill.

on the other topic, I would also like to build some wall mounted, fold out work benches. the hinge would be about waist level, and the table top would fold towards the floor. any links/plans/suggestions?

dusterbd13 on garage journal said: so the French cleat storage racks are very appealing for my garage renovation. I've seen it in a few of the garage builds around here, and seems like the best solution for some storage problems im having. what's the best size/dimensions for this? any good links? the blueprints I found online call for something like 6 inch cleats, which seems a bit overkill. on the other topic, I would also like to build some wall mounted, fold out work benches. the hinge would be about waist level, and the table top would fold towards the floor. any links/plans/suggestions? the only catch with all this is my walls are concrete filled cinderblock. so we need to tailor things or modify them to work with what I have. garage is used for automotive restoration/repair, woodworking, and general tinkering.

finsihed the thread with: The other forum I frequent has a tradition of "learn me" being in the subject line when a request for information is the main purpose of the thread. I sometimes forget that other forums have different traditions. Thank You all for the information and education so far. If im understanding the French cleat walls correctly, 3/4 ply ripped 3 1/2 wide will be plenty for most anything i want to hang. What do I need to know about the fasteners for concrete? Ive only ever used tapcons, and only with moderate success. Is there something better? Some sort of methods for use that I don't know? What sort of spacing between fasteners should I be using for the French cleat walls?

Tapcons have worked great for me. Alternatives are some sort of threaded insert, or something like a ramset. Neither of those would I choose over a tapcon.

I always thought the French cleat thing looked neat, but I don't need to be modular, so I just attach stuff right to the wall. With tapcons.

In reply to Dusterbd13:

"I" is typically capitalized, and "im" would be correctly spelled "I'm".

In reply to SVreX:

the sad thing is that I was an English major.....

any educational resources for a guy like me on how to use tapcons better?

In reply to Dusterbd13:

OK, seriously...

Tapcons will work great. Go ahead and use them to secure the French cleats.

You will need to experiment a little to find the right length/ pilot drill size/ penetration depth/ etc. You also may find it is better to tapcon into the filled cores, instead of the block webs.

I don't think there is a prescribed frequency. It depends on how much weight you intend to hang. I'd start with about 2' on center. Stick a couple in, try to pull it out or hang weight on it, rinse repeat.

The beauty of the French cleats (from a strength perspective) is that the more weight you hang, the greater the friction to the wall.

Want to give me a tapcons for moron post? Assume I know nothing about the., because what I do know is probably wrong.

In reply to Dusterbd13:

Well... for one thing, they are mis-named.

Tapcons don't tap very well in concrete.

You need to use a pilot drill. Drill a clean hole (the size recommended on the box) with a sharp masonry bit and a hammer drill.

But the best way to secure French cleats would be with 2 different sized pilot drills. You want the tapcon to thread into the concrete, but to slide freely through a hole in the wood French cleat.

Then, it's a bit of trial and error.

Make sure you drill in the exact same location in the blocks each time. You've got 3 choices: the joint, the web of the block, or the core of the block.

The joint usually is the easiest to drill, but fails the most often. Worst choice. That's because there are voids, and mix inconsistencies in the mortar.

The web is generally very consistent, but also fairly weak. The material is too soft.

Those concrete filled cores are probably your best option. Most blocks have 2 cores (which would mean you will miss the core if you drill in the center of the block), but there are 3 core blocks (which would hit the core in the center of the block).

Try a couple of spots. If you find a nice strong grab in the center of the block, keep shooting for that.

The length of the tapcon also matters. If it is too short, it won't bite in the concrete (and/ or block). But if it's too long, the shank with no threads will also not bite. Experiment.

The capitalization inconsistencies in this post are intentional. "Tapcon" should be capitalized. Didn't want to seem to elitist.

Instead of paying a lot of money to tanning salons, I generally try to fit in by making intentional typograficle errors in onlein pots. I hope no one ever cathes mee at my dizonisty.

thank you, svrex. that's pretty much what knowledge I was missing.

is there a way to steady the hammer drill more to prevent wallering out the hole? (and I use wallering intentionally because, you know, southern traditional word) or is this a case of me overthinking it? I typically use my drill press to drill holes for pilot drilling, which eliminates hand/drill shake.

Overthinking it.

You definitely do not need a drill press, and they are really hard to use horizontally on a block wall.

Once you decide where you want your drill holes (through trial and error), you can use your drill press to pre-drill the bigger diameter holes in the French cleats. Then hold the cleat up to the wall and drill through your bigger holes with the smaller masonry bit (in a hand-held drill).

Don't try to drill all the holes in the block before securing the cleat. Drill 1 hole, secure the cleat, then drill a few more.

That way, you are not increasing the "wallering" by also adding a little shifting of the cleat.

If your pre-drilled holes don't grab, add a couple more.

I have had better luck with tapcons in block when I drill the masonry hole in two size steps. Smaller diameter hole full depth, then proper diameter full depth. Any other method and they don't grab.

about the grab/"wallering":

about 50% of the tapcons ive tried to use have pulled right out. I contributed that to the "wallering", or to me just being stupid.

how do I reduce/eliminate this? ive been using a hammer drill, and the bit that comes in the box of tapcons.

I came for French cleavage systems and foldable dom benches. I'm disappointed.

The tapcons I've used came with their own drill bit. I've never drilled a pilot hole for them. Sometimes the entrance chips out a bit, but no big deal.

I use a 1/2" corded Dewalt variable speed hammer drill. Just have at it, makes a big racket and a nice hole. My entire house exterior (including most of the garage) is CBS so I've probably put in 100 of them. Maybe one or two pulled/stripped.

In reply to MattGent:

The dill bit that comes with with the Tapcons IS a pilot bit.

In reply to SVreX:

Guessing you were being a smarty pants but-Pretty sure he was saying he never drills a pilot hole for the pilot bit.

In reply to MrJoshua:

You are confusing me.

I've never heard of drilling a pilot hole for a pilot bit. A pilot bit is what makes a pilot hole. I assume you are referring to a 2 stage pilot hole like you previously described (which I have never had to do, nor even conceive of).

I am referring to the fact that some people try to run Tapcons into the concrete without drilling a pilot hole at all.

A pilot is a pilot. The bit MattGent uses that comes with the Tapcons is just fine, until it is worn.

In reply to SVreX:

I'm saying MatGent was saying he never had to drill a smaller hole before using the pilot bit that came with the tapcons. He called the first smaller hole I referred to a pilot hole. He is using the pilot bit

I have stripped many tapcon holes using a non hammer drill and the new bit provided. The pre drilled smaller hole made tapcons usable for me.

In reply to MrJoshua:

The problem you are having is the non-hammer drill.

Masonry doesn't drill, it pulverizes. Use a hammer drill, and you won't need to double drill the pilot holes.

In reply to MrJoshua:

The problem you are having is the non-hammer drill.

Masonry doesn't drill. It pulverizes. A hammer drill is a controlled pulverizing device.

If you use a hammer drill, you won't have to double drill your pilot holes.

It doesnt surprise me that my method is a kludge or workaround because I have the wrong tool. It does affirm my belief that sometimes the wrong tool can work if you just use it more.

You could always use lag shields with lag screws. You know for overkills sake.

moparman76_69 wrote: You could always use lag shields with lag screws. You know for overkills sake.

Care to learn me?

Are you going into poured concrete, or cinderblock? The answer is different.

Into Concrete, these things will hold up the world. Downside for your application, the don't pull down flush. I could see them creating enough pressure to shatter a cinderblock, so I wouldn't use them there.

These are tapcons, and will work fine into either, but it will take a few more to hold up the world. If going into cinderblocks, hit the web in the middle of the block. They are available with a flat head for flush mounting.

I think French cleats are the bees knees.