Learn me Minivans

My wife and I recently had a big surprise, shortly followed by a very sad disappointment. But it made us realize that we want kids sooner rather than later.

We have two dogs. Big dogs. As in, the smaller dog is a Samoyed mix. The big dog is a Great Pyrenees. And my wife can't always lift the big guy into the Tribute, which has led us to a minivan--not to mention minivans are the thing that makes sense for about a million other reasons. 

So, while we're not ready to buy right now and probably won't be for another year, I like to know what I need to be looking out for. So without further ado, here are my requirements, and some other questions: 

Requirements: 

 - Safe. This is priority #1, 2, and #5.

 - Safe. This is priority #1, 2, and #5.

 - Decent MPG. 25 highway. Would really like 23+ city.

 - Less than $10k

 - Safe. This is priority #1, 2, and #5.

 - Reliable, and affordable to maintain. This car needs to be the one that never goes down. Ever. So if you tell me Oddity, make sure you give me the right years after they fixed the transmission.

Those are the requirements.  Wants: 

 - Towing ability--doesn't need to be crazy, as there are usually other options available, but the ability to tow 3500 would be nice. 5000 would be really nice (short distances--less than 5 miles, but it includes a boat ramp)

 - Stow and Go, or similar

 - Rear windows that go down. Milo likes to paint the car with drool.

What is out there? What do I need to avoid? What should I specifically be looking for? 

The 2011+ 3.6 Chrysler makes really good power.  Some of the older ones should be in your price range.

We've owned our 06 Sienna since January 07. It has been as reliable as gravity. I've been driving it since June or July when we traded my Suburban in on a brand new 4Runner for my wife and I took over the Sienna. I really like driving it, but do miss having rwd. FWD really sucks, but it's what you'll find in 99% of modern minivans. I vote for Toyota every time I hear someone asking about minivans. 

2nd Gen Sienna. You could even get them with AWD! The 3.5 ones are way faster than you'd expect, too. The fact that a bent frame from one of her son's off-roading expeditions and not being 180,000km overdue for a timing belt change was what sent my landlord's heavily abused Sienna to the scrapyard is pretty damn impressive.

mtn said:

My wife and I recently had a big surprise, shortly followed by a very sad disappointment. But it made us realize that we want kids sooner rather than later.

 - Decent MPG. 25 highway. Would really like 23+ city.

 - Less than $10k

 - Reliable, and affordable to maintain. This car needs to be the one that never goes down. Ever. So if you tell me Oddity, make sure you give me the right years after they fixed the transmission.

 

Those are the requirements.  Wants: 

 - Towing ability--doesn't need to be crazy, as there are usually other options available, but the ability to tow 3500 would be nice. 5000 would be really nice (short distances--less than 5 miles, but it includes a boat ramp)

 - Stow and Go, or similar

 - Rear windows that go down. Milo likes to paint the car with drool.

My sympathies on the disappointment, that's rough. :(

As far as the minivan goes, we put 100K on a 2007 Odyssey and it required very little in the way of repairs.  A transmission park/neutral switch (occasional no start because it couldn't figure out that it was in Park), and a CV joint right before we sold it at 100K.  The transmissions were fixed somewhere in the 2005-2006 range when they put the Ridgeline tranny in there instead.  Shortly after that they started having issues with rings cauesd by the cylinder deactivation system -- I'm not sure of the exact years, but there's a small range of years (including 2007) that are free of both gremlins.

I don't think you're going to get 25 mpg on a full size minivan.  Maybe a brand new one with the recent emphasis on milage, but anything old enough to be sub $10K is going to low 20s at best, it's a 5000 pound vehicle after all.  The Mazda 5 might be an exception to this, it's a mini-minvan of a type that mostly isn't sold in the US.  AFAICT, the standard for post-2000 minivans is 3500 pound tow rating, none of them are 5K.  I think they pretty much all have rear windows that go down too.

IMHO, stow-n-go on the second row is overrated.  If you're going to be hauling kids around then you're looking at a decade of having your second row filled with car seats.  Strapping/unstrapping those is a giant PITA, enough so that you're not going to want to use that flat floor very often.  Note that stow-n-go also makes the second row less comfortable to sit in than the lift-out seats that the others have.

As far as what you do want, definitely get power side doors.  It may seem like an extravagant luxury, but being able to close the rear doors from the driver's seat is super handy and it's quite difficult to move a manual sliding door if the van is parked on a significant hill.

They are all going to be safe----seriously, Minivans are the safest things on the road.  (passenger car wise at least)    Well, maybe besides the Koreans, they usually lag a bit behind on safety testing. 

For full Stow and Go, Dodge / Chrysler is your only choice.   Others have rear benches that stow, but only the  FCA vans have all seats that stow.   Mileage wise, I'm pretty sure they are all pretty similar.   My 14 Dodge Grand Caravan gets about 19 around town, 25 on the hwy at 80mph.  I've gotten as high as 30mpg on slower two-lane  roads at 50-70mph.  

They are all pretty darn reliable these days.  Honda and Toyota have the best reputation for reliability, but I'm not sure how much of that is myth, and how much is reality.   My van has 30K on it and has been completely trouble free, FWIW.  I've heard good things about all modern minivans, besides possibly GM's offerings

I've found the Honda to be the best to drive, followed by the Chry. co and then the Toyota.   I haven't been a fan of the Toyota vans I've driven, but it's all relative.  These are vans, not Miatas, they all handle pretty similarly.  They all  have good power with the V6 too.

I went with the Dodge  as i bought new, and it was a tremendous value  for the money.  I  would have paid at least $10K more for  a similarly equipped (but less versatile) Honda or Toyota.  Mine was $22,600 out the door---- brand  spanking new.   The APV (American Value Package) Dodge vans could  be had for under $20K, but they don't offer full Stow and Go, or side  windows that roll down.  

Drive  them all, and  buy whichever one makes you happy, and fits your needs best.

Also--- the full stow and go isn't worth much to some, but I use it ALL THE TIME.  Seriously, I bet I retract and pop the seats up 3-4 times per month.  Of course, I have no kids, so child  safety seats aren't a concern.  I wouldn't buy a van without the full stow and go option----it's so  incredibly well designed and versatile---- for MY needs. 

I also can't  stand power sliding doors and wouldn't consider a van with them.  They are slow, clunky, and have been known to fail.   My van's manual doors slide open and closed very easily, and are bulletproof.   Again---- for ME.   Different  strokes for different  folks!   

The only other option for 2nd row seats that stow is the Nissan Quest.

Joe Gearin said:

I also can't  stand power sliding doors and wouldn't consider a van with them.  They are slow, clunky, and have been known to fail.   My van's manual doors slide open and closed very easily, and are bulletproof.   Again---- for ME.   Different  strokes for different  folks!   

Yeah, the "hauling kids" and "hauling stuff" usage models are pretty different.  Also, you live in Florida, there aren't any hills around there, right? :)

All it takes is a thread like this to remind you that anything that can break, will.  I wish we didn't have power sliding doors on ours because it would be one less thing to worry about.  My wife loves them, but I see them as unnecessary complexity.  And as that thread points out... they don't just 'become manual doors' when they break.  Its not like an escalator.

If you get an odyssey, avoid the trim levels with cylinder deactivation.  This may force you to give up the power-lift tailgate as well... but who cares?  

On your MPG... our Odyssey will get around 24mpg highway.  Maybe 26 occasionally.  I don't check too often, because I don't like being disappointed.  No 'fullsize' minivan is going to get 23+ city.

If I could do it all over again, I'd get the Mazda 5 just because its simpler.  Also the Odyssey (and any non-Mazda5 minivan) is huge.

Mazda 5 is pretty small if you already have 2 large dogs and want to add kids to the mix. I would Not recommend a 5 for a family of more than 4 to be honest. Great van but it's small.

Nissan quest isn't really stow and go but all the rear seats fold down to a flat surface, like the mazda 5. 

I'm eyeing a quest as a future replacement to my 5 to be honest.

In reply to mtn :

I wish you were in the market sooner. We'll be trading in our '14 T&C by spring, and I'd sell it for what I owe which is under $9k. Hell, I'd even give you the option of delivery up to your place, or you two could fly down here & enjoy the beach for a bit before driving it back.

I'm a big fan of stow and go..  I've gotten a lot of use out of it.  Two kids and you went to Ikea?  Fold down both seats on the left, etc.  With latch, moving a car seat is pretty trivial.

We currently own 2 2005 town & county touring trimmed vans.  I get around 20 with the larger 3.8l v6.  I paid 4k for them and they've mostly just needed some catch up maintenance (shocks/springs/sway bar endlinks, brakes, etc.).  The youngest of mine has 140k on it, the older one has 180k.  Both have had power sliding door issues. I've only gotten around to fixing one of them, but it took about a 1/2 hour, and I just patched the wire that failed.  The doors work normally without the power, so the other van is waiting until spring for that fix :)

we replaced a 2015 Mazda 5 with the second t&c.  We loved the 5, but when our "forth and final" kid (according to the wife) turned out to twins, it was way too small for our needs.

Before we bought the second one, I test drove a brand new Toyota, and it wasn't nearly as nice to drive as the Chrysler.  The various power train issues kept me away from the Honda.

In reply to Pete Gossett :

Please tell me about the '14 T&C.  I have been considering moving on from my wife's '10 Mazda 5 and into a Chryco van.   

For other's maybe interested in Mazda5, it is a Sport Model which means no options other that auto trans.  We bought it as a super late hold-over.  The '12 model year cars had already arrived on the lot.  There was no '11 Mazda5.  Mazda just held over the '10 model a little longer.  It has about 60k miles.  We have had it since new in Feb '11 or nearly 7 years.  My wife drives about 8k miles per year.  Blue.

Your dogs would want a Nissan Frontier truck - think of them.  

https://youtu.be/_aYZrvG5BkY

Pete Gossett said:

In reply to mtn :

I wish you were in the market sooner. We'll be trading in our '14 T&C by spring, and I'd sell it for what I owe which is under $9k. Hell, I'd even give you the option of delivery up to your place, or you two could fly down here & enjoy the beach for a bit before driving it back.

When are you looking to do something? We're not on a hard timeline here. Frankly I'd be ok with it sooner rather than later for various reasons. 

Mazdax605 said:

We've owned our 06 Sienna since January 07. It has been as reliable as gravity. I've been driving it since June or July when we traded my Suburban in on a brand new 4Runner for my wife and I took over the Sienna. I really like driving it, but do miss having rwd. FWD really sucks, but it's what you'll find in 99% of modern minivans. I vote for Toyota every time I hear someone asking about minivans. 

Wife has a 2006 Sienna and it has been reliable as gravity since she bought it last year. 8 passenger seating and it doesn't suck to drive, just isn't on the same plane as my Daily 2008 Honda Fit.  Rear row stows while middle rom requires removal to "stow"  rear windows go down far enough to stick your head out. 

Datsun310Guy said:

Your dogs would want a Nissan Frontier truck - think of them.  

https://youtu.be/_aYZrvG5BkY

I would love a truck. Frosty would not. Milo would, but he'd either jump out of the bed or be sitting on my wife's lap. 

09 Sienna here. Also reliable as gravity. We have the CE which has no power anything and cloth seats.  It feels stout enough to tow but I have no experience towing with ours.  No power doors = no broken door actuators. 16” tires are cheaper to replace than 17s or 18s.  It’s my minivan recommendation.

In reply to mtn :

I think I still have your #, if so I'll message you tomorrow with the general plan. 

I'll put my normal vote in for the previous generation Kia Sedona...if you can live without Stow N Go.  If you want it, Chrysler is your only choice.  But if you don't haul stuff besides people all the time, IMHO, Stow N Go is pretty useless.  We've had Sedonas for 11 years now and I can count on one hand the number of times I wish I had it. 

The Sedona can tow, I've done it many, many times.  It's dead nuts reliable.  We beat the E36 M3 out of ours routinely, never once left us stranded...except for the time my wife ran it out of gas, but that's a story for another day.  Very, very safe.  Did all the government crash test stuff with high marks, and I can tell you from having seen dozens and dozens of them crashed, they do well in real life scenarios too.

MPG...well, that could be tough.  18mpg mixed, 24-25 highway if you're just cruising at a sane speed.  But the trade off is it's pretty damn fast off the line for a minivan.

I am also a FCA fan as I have an '08 GC.  Stow-and-Go was a priority for me since the van is in cargo-mode 99% of the time.  As the van nears 200K miles, little things are starting to go.  I had the radiator replaced this week.  But being a very common American vehicle, parts and labor are cheap. I paid to have it replaced for just under $400.  If I had the time to DIY it, the cost would have been around $100 with parts from RockAuto. 

My van has the anemic 3.3L V6 with a 4 spd AT and gets in the low 20's in mixed driving, mid-20's on hwy trips.

Same as many here, though we have an 11 Caravan. Faster than it ought to be, more reliable than you'd think, and stow n' go is more awesome than I ever thought it could be. From what I gather, 12+ has bigger brakes, but we haven't noticed. We have power gate and doors and love them, they have all survived the abuse of my four kids. 

We bought an '04 Odyssey a year and a half ago because it was the right vehicle to buy.  After trying to convince all of my siblings that they needed to get a minivan, and then they all got SUVs, they now say "How do you like your Odyssey?  We are thinking about getting one."  Duh, I told you that you should have last time.  

I don't know that the 5k towing capacity is going to be possible with any minivan (that I know of).  If you go Odyssey (especially early ones), get a big transmission cooler and switch to Valvoline Max-life ATF.  

Other than a 1988 100hp Caravan, 23 city isn't going to happen.  More like 14 in something modern.  Highway shouldn't be bad. 25 cruising flatland should be no problem. 28 if you can keep the mph down. 

On the safety safety safety, I don't think you can go wrong with anything you would be looking at. Myself, I might forget the stow and go, and get a Sienna, but Toyotas hold value better than Chryslers.  Maybe you can get more Caravan for your buck.

On the boat ramp, does FWD hook up ok for that kind of thing?  I would imagine those ramps get wet.  May want AWD?

I tow a small boat with my 14 GC and it does just fine. (13' Boston Whaler)  Mine is rated to tow 3,500---- I'm not sure I'd go over that, as I'd worry about the trans.  The brakes are up to it----as they are very stout, but it is FWD after all.  

I  haven't had any issues dragging my little boat (named the Titanic by the way) out of the water.....but it's not much  of a load.   When I jump to a larger vessel,  I'll probably bite the bullet and get an SUV or truck of some sort.  

As I mentioned, my 3.6 liter Pentastar gets close to 20mpg  around town, and 25-28 on the highway.   My MPG readout usually tells me I'm getting 24 mpg or so in mixed driving.  Pretty amazing for such a big / heavy machine.   

The trans is a bit clunky occasionally when shifting into gear if you aren't at a complete stop, but it's plenty smooth once underway.   This less than perfect refinement of the trans is really my only complaint with the GC---- and it's a small one at that.