In reply to ProDarwin :
And for 3., make that "reliable contractors that know their way around an old house". They did things slightly different back then in some cases, so you want someone who knows old houses. Granted, that doesn't look as it'll require as much special attention as some of the old houses we looked at (good luck finding a roofer who knows her or his way around a slate roof).
My house was built in 1894. The two story part was picked up and moved to the new foundation, then another one story was bolted to the back and two one story bedrooms and the porches were added. All with mules and ropes? In the picture below you can see the additions. The white house on the left is the one that was gutted.
Plumbing s a mish mash of galvanized and my recent copper repairs. Wiring was wire & knob, upgraded to Romex in the 1930s? Ceiling beams are full 3X8" some with bark on them. I've only seen a few wall studs but they were similar. The foundation is 3ft. thick stone. It's been fun. We started by cleaning, painting and papering one bedroom and one bathroom downstairs. From there we could fix anything and just close the bedroom door at night and think normal.
My 30 some year old neighbor bought one built in the 1930s. Being handy, he removed the plaster & lath from all but one room (kept it due to rececessed ceiling); then rewired, replumbed and sheet rocked the entire house. If I had the money and talent when I was 25, that's the way I would have gone.
So, my $.02? If everything is sound and solid, you like the neighborhood and can afford it. why not buy it?
Markets change, but this is what $38,000 bought in 1978.
1988RedT2 said:In reply to John Welsh (Forum Supporter) :
Dude! Negative much? Let me guess, you live in a townhome or a condo or an apartment in town. Your bias is showing!
Realistic != negative.
The fact that it's a dirt road leading up the house kills it for me. Don't need to know anything else about. Let there be a nice thunderstorm roll through and my lowered sports car on summer tires is likely going nowhere.
ProDarwin said:NBraun said:Any advice on home ownership or personal experiences you wish to share?
- Don't treat it as an investment. If you are going to treat it as an investment, actually run the numbers and compare to your other investment options.
- Take the amount of time you think taking care of the house will take and triple it. Put some serious though into how much time you want to spend taking care of property. The time thing goes for "quick" jobs and renovations as well.
- Start asking people now if they know any reliable contractors. In my experience if you call 5, 2 will call you back, 1 will actually show up to quote.
- Budget 1-3% of the home value every year for upkeep.
1. SO. MUCH. YES.
Unless you're in one of a few very hot markets any appreciation the house has is EASILY overwhelmed by the payment, interest, maintenance, etc.
I bought my current house in Sept of '17.........just in that time period alone I've spent somewhere around $4k having trees removed, stumps ground, and the remaining trees trimmed.
I suspect I'm in for about another $1500 or so next spring to have the remaining 5 LARGE trees in the front yard cleaned up and trimmed really well.
Another thing... not really a negative in my opinion, but something to consider.
Every job you do will turn up 10 other things. My current house evidently began life as a very small something. Garage? Carriage house? Summer kitchen? Storage shed? It's really hard to tell, but from the attic it looks like the living room was the original structure, then the room that is the kitchen was added, then the bedrooms were added, and finally a mudroom/laundry. My attic and basement tell a lot of stories. The one wall in my kitchen is drywall directly over the original cedar shake outer siding.
When you open something up in an old house, you'll find years of question marks. When I redid my bathroom I discovered that one wall was brand new, one wall had been strangely spaced away from the studs by about 4 inches, and the subfloor was a mashup of plywood and T&G - presumably from water damage repairs.
It won't be like a newer house where you pull up carpet to find a sea of OSB with a few stains, instead it will be revealing more work. It's like cutting out a 4" section of a fender to repair a tiny rust spot, and you look inside and see more rust, a magical elfin society of smurfs, Jimmy Hoffa's body, and voting ballots from a 1934 mayoral election. Simultaneously really fun, but can be daunting. New house you rip up carpet and put new flooring down. Old house you rip up carpet and have to assess what else needs to be done while you're staring at whatever subfloor fresh hell you've uncovered.
My Ex's parents bought an 1870s mansion for cheap. I remember tearing out some damaged plaster to put in some sheetrock and found a newspaper from 1872 in the walls. I imagine that was the builders' idea of an easter egg. I couldn't help but think about some guy in overalls and a Boater hat marking his work by leaving the daily newspaper there for someone to find 140 years later.
I've made a career out of old houses, in several regions of the country. Many of the general questions have already been addressed- I will wait for specifics.
One thing to consider that has not been mentioned is the presence of hazardous materials, and your tolerance for them. That house definitely has lead paint, both inside and out. I guarantee if you run your finger in the track of the wood window sashes it will be covered with lead dust. This is not an enormous problem, but if you're gonna have kids, it's a consideration.
I can't be sure from your picture, but I think I see asbestos roof shingles. It could also be in the pipe insulation, floor covering, plaster, etc. Again, these things are not crises, but need to be managed.
That property is mostly the value of the land. Assume the house value is $50,000 less than a comparably sized newer house. That will give you a starting point.
I try to tell people to never buy an older house because it is cheap (it's not). Buy it because you are in love with it, and are willing to invest a lot of money, sweat, and tears into it. They never listen to me.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
You make a really good point that I didn't even think about. Currently the county values the house + land at 100,000, which seems to line up with other acreages I've seen. However, who knows what they'll ask for it.
In reply to NBraun :
Buy it because you love it. NOT because it's cheap. (It's not)
I live in an old farmhouse on a big piece of property in the sticks and have learned a few things in the last 20 years.
A long driveway is nice but expensive to do anything with. It's easier, and a lot less frustrating to upgrade than to fix another persons poorly done upgrades. I would prefer if my place was more original than it was when I bought it because most of the renovation work was really poorly done. Look for stuff like that because if you're a perfectionist it will drive you crazy. I could add a lot more because it's a long story, but not that interesting. Just know that every repair might be an adventure, and an exercise in frustration.
We don't regret it but it's been a lot of work, and it's work that I don't particularly enjoy. Though if given the choice, I would do it again because the price was right (meaning we could easily get the money back) and we love the property.
I have really grown to hate this house, but we do love the property, so in an ideal world the place would burn to the ground and the insurance company would build me a nice little bungalow that was straight, square, properly built and low maintenance.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:I've made a career out of old houses, in several regions of the country. Many of the general questions have already been addressed- I will wait for specifics.
One thing to consider that has not been mentioned is the presence of hazardous materials, and your tolerance for them. That house definitely has lead paint, both inside and out. I guarantee if you run your finger in the track of the wood window sashes it will be covered with lead dust. This is not an enormous problem, but if you're gonna have kids, it's a consideration.
I can't be sure from your picture, but I think I see asbestos roof shingles. It could also be in the pipe insulation, floor covering, plaster, etc. Again, these things are not crises, but need to be managed.
That property is mostly the value of the land. Assume the house value is $50,000 less than a comparably sized newer house. That will give you a starting point.
I try to tell people to never buy an older house because it is cheap (it's not). Buy it because you are in love with it, and are willing to invest a lot of money, sweat, and tears into it. They never listen to me.
You are spot on, an old house can probably be torn down and start from scratch with a new one and there will be little difference in the final cost.
On the other hand an old house can provide a room by room project that can be done with cash on hand rather than a loan.
The down side is it will take a long time. I mean a really LLLOOOOONNNNNGGG time. The typical new house takes from 2500-3000 man hours to do from start to finish. ( for comparison a 40 hour work week is 2040 hours)
So be prepared for several years of working on the home every night and all weekend.
Before I started I had a family meeting explaining all of that to my wife and teenage children. They were all eager for me to start and promised help sincerely believing they would be there helping me every step of the way. Yes they would clean up, sweep up and run and get me tools.
But as work began they had other obligations or things they wanted to do . I found negotiating with them took more time then they actually worked. "Here, would you please hold this end of this board right here so and can go and connect the other end?"
Aw dad get mother or sister too help you.? I'm doing home work or talking to my friend or••••••••
Doing it yourself for the first time it's not unreasonable to double that and even allow extra.
Yes, with experience that can be shortened. But Helping you father with a little remodeling job or two isn't experience.
Having friends or neighbors in the building trades may not really help much either. They work hard to make a living and getting them to help you likely will take more than just asking them. Even if they do owe you. ( not everyone honors that sort of debt)
z31maniac said:ProDarwin said:NBraun said:Any advice on home ownership or personal experiences you wish to share?
- Don't treat it as an investment. If you are going to treat it as an investment, actually run the numbers and compare to your other investment options.
- Take the amount of time you think taking care of the house will take and triple it. Put some serious though into how much time you want to spend taking care of property. The time thing goes for "quick" jobs and renovations as well.
- Start asking people now if they know any reliable contractors. In my experience if you call 5, 2 will call you back, 1 will actually show up to quote.
- Budget 1-3% of the home value every year for upkeep.
1. SO. MUCH. YES.
Unless you're in one of a few very hot markets any appreciation the house has is EASILY overwhelmed by the payment, interest, maintenance, etc.
I bought my current house in Sept of '17.........just in that time period alone I've spent somewhere around $4k having trees removed, stumps ground, and the remaining trees trimmed.
I suspect I'm in for about another $1500 or so next spring to have the remaining 5 LARGE trees in the front yard cleaned up and trimmed really well.
Wow! housing as an investment. Lot of different answers to that. Sort of like if you want a happily ever after story it depends on when the story ends.
Can you make more money in the stock market?
Maybe yes maybe no depends on market timing, investment selection, and a dozen other things just like a home.
However, no matter what you need shelter. Maybe modest rental will do. But You don't need an investment even though having one is a wonderful thing. Just like having a lot of equity in a home is a wonderful thing.
I'm assuming this place has well water and septic? These are expensive systems that if they haven't been updated professionals will be required.
Check the place out after / during a heavy rain. I didn't do this before buying my house and I found out later that a river of water flows out of my neighbors field and passes through my side yard.
RE-the investment question...
Realistically, it's only an investment if you plan on selling it. Like you already know that you want to live in some other place at some point in the near future.
Otherwise, consider it a part of your estate. Which means that if you live there for a LOOONG time, you should make it exactly the way that you want it. For instance, once I realized that I have no plans on moving, adding a 4 car garage to the back of my house was easy math- and that significant investment made it even less likely that I would need to move in the future.
In theory, you should also be aware of the possibility that your life takes an unexpected turn- which will temper what you do.
My first house was easily the best investment I ever made. Granted, most of that was due to good fortune--buying in the mid-90's and selling in the early '00's.
Unless you buy a place that's really run-down and ready to fall in, you can choose the pace at which you will proceed with upgrades and renovations. Take care of urgent needs. The rest will be waiting for you when you have the time, inclination, and money to address it.
I live in a house built in 1927. We THINK it is a Sears home, for whatever that is worth. Chicago suburb, so not the same concerns a a rural community.
Lets start with the good about my house: Windows were replaced probably 10-15 years ago. The plumbing and HVAC are most certainly not original. We think the bathrooms were redone about 25 years ago, and the downstairs one had a light remodel again maybe 15 years ago. There are parts of the house that they put drywall up, and in the rest of it the plaster is in good shape. The garage was built in 2000, in the past 15-20 years someone spent a ton of money on insulation in the attic.
Now the bad.
The layout sucks for tv viewing. There just is not a good way to set up the tv and sofa/recliners. We do not watch a ton of tv, but it is an annoyance. We cannot fix this without significant remodeling.
The layout in general is odd. King sized beds were not a thing. People back then had 2 suits and 2 work outfits and pajamas. Accordingly our closets are tiny. They built a room into what used to be a crawl space, it is 8x8. The closet in that room is uninsulated and 4x8. Yeah, the closet (with sloping ceiling) is half the size of the room. The master closet is about 3x2. Another bedroom is about 8x20. In that bedroom, you looked at the chair rail and thought... why is there a chair rail in here, and why is it that high up? Well, I’ll just pull it down when I paint it. Pulled it down and you saw how someone had no clue what they were doing when hanging drywall. Ok, guess I’m buying a nail gun and putting in a new chair rail.
On a house this old, unless there was a gut rehab, you’re going to find really annoying things. First of all, NOTHING is square anymore. This is true of new homes too, but it is really true of really old houses. Then you’ll look at the obviously redone bathroom and wonder, what the hell were they thinking? And you’ll look at that for a lot of stuff in the house and wonder that. In my house I do it in the kitchen, the basement (why would you finish two rooms of the basement, but you have to walk through the unfinished part to get to them?!), the upstairs bath, and the upstairs bedroom.
I have a bedroom that has 1 plaster wall, and 3 walls that are drywall hung over plaster. If you’re mounting something to the wall, that’s something that you need to know - gotta drill a long way to get to the stud.
For any house, as things age they’ll wear out. I keep water valves in my basement because they all keep failing eventually. I should just replace every one. The electric is all good and updated... except for that outlet, don’t use that outlet guys. Need to fix that, but it’s a roundtoit that is still on the list.
We’re happy with our house, but the fact is if the windows hadn’t been replaced already it would have been torn down 10 years ago when it sold last before us buying it 4 years ago. Go price new windows - and sit down before you look at it. Same goes for the bathrooms and the kitchen - and they all really could be redone now, but they’re at least functional. Small though.
These things aren’t on every old house, and the good parts of my house aren’t either. Every one is different. But when I think of my grandparents house that was built in the 50’s, my parents house built in the 60’s, or the house I grew up in built in tbe 70’s, I get “jealous” at a house that would just be slightly easier. And then I look at my in-laws McMansion built in the 90’s with a E36 M3ty layout and wasted space and poor build quality and I’m happy again with our old bungalow.
To quote the advice that my granddad gave to my dad when he bought his first house, "An old house will always be old".
That is both good and bad. Generally, you might get a location or property size that just isn't available with a new house. The old houses will often have character that modern homes cannot duplicate. Some things really were better; wood in particular. Modern wood is just plain crap. Some things really were worse: insulation, asbestos plaster, and lead paint and fittings. Workmanship varies widely. A modern spec built house in a cookie cutter neighborhood can be really well built or an utter pieces of crap. The same goes for old houses.
As far as upkeep is concerned, once you get past 15-20 years old, it really is all about the same. They all will need roofs, HVAC, fresh insulation, etc... I just Installed new HVAC this year and had a new roof put on two years ago for our house built in 2003. Of special note, our home seems to be pretty well screwed together in most regards, but the original roof was not installed correctly. The space between the rows of shingles was cheated to use less shingles, very subtle. I found that during a wind storm, when half a dozen shingles ended up in the yard.
Next year, I need to look at insulation and probably have the septic pumped again.
Another consideration would be will the banks give you a mortgage on it and will an insurance company insure it? Depending on wiring and plumbing in particular, an insurer might not cover it, which will invalidate any mortgage approvals.
Around here, I've heard of a house on the market with a 60 amp main panel where the insurance companies required a minimum of 100, so no one could get a mortgage or insurance as it was presented. If something like that is found, maybe the current owner could be made to fix it prior to sale, but it adds a complication.
We just moved to a brand new house from the old mid-70s foreclosure ranch we lived in and updated for 15 years. Lots of work. Most of it done by me. A few things we learned:
At the end of it all I basically had a part-time job for those 15 years. We came out OK, financially, but it was a HUGE pain in the ass. If I had it to do again I'm not all that sure I'd sign up for it.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:RE-the investment question...
Realistically, it's only an investment if you plan on selling it. Like you already know that you want to live in some other place at some point in the near future.
Otherwise, consider it a part of your estate. Which means that if you live there for a LOOONG time, you should make it exactly the way that you want it. For instance, once I realized that I have no plans on moving, adding a 4 car garage to the back of my house was easy math- and that significant investment made it even less likely that I would need to move in the future.
In theory, you should also be aware of the possibility that your life takes an unexpected turn- which will temper what you do.
Great points. How you deal with them determined to a great degree how your life will go.
Some people can buy, fix up, and sell in a few years and make a nice profit. Most wont.
Does where you live matter? It depends. Is it big enough to provide you with opportunities when jobs change careers end, and life's twists present complications?
Some people have the skill, knack , talent, personality , etc to make anything work. Others are more fixed/ structured / ridged and need certain conditions to do well and prosper.
However A home is a major purchase in can be a real blessing or a serious set back.
RX8driver said:Another consideration would be will the banks give you a mortgage on it and will an insurance company insure it? Depending on wiring and plumbing in particular, an insurer might not cover it, which will invalidate any mortgage approvals.
Around here, I've heard of a house on the market with a 60 amp main panel where the insurance companies required a minimum of 100, so no one could get a mortgage or insurance as it was presented. If something like that is found, maybe the current owner could be made to fix it prior to sale, but it adds a complication.
Wow! Changing a 60 amp service to 100 ? Gee, I'd check the wiring and then I'd stop and pick up the new box on the way home Friday . ( along with the required breakers). By Sunday everything would be done.
Yes it's legal for a home owner to do his own work. If it's done properly. Is it safe? Not if you don't know and don't want to bother learning.
There are a lot of things like that in an old house. Hard work and some knowledge is required but cars are a lot more technically demanding and we tear into them all the time.
In reply to frenchyd :
Actually, it's technically NOT legal as you described it. Homeowners can do their own electric, but they need a permit. It's hard to get a permit on a Saturday.
RXdriver's example was about getting a mortgage. If the bank has not approved the mortgage, then you are NOT yet the owner. It is NOT legal for you to do electric on a house you do not own. His point stands that it is a valid consideration on an older house purchase like this.
I agree with you that changing out a service like this is not that difficult, but an older service can definitely prohibit or hinder a sale that involves financing.
Again, really appreciate every ones advice and thoughts!
I was able to talk to get some more information this weekend. The kitchen and parts of the house were renovated around 10 years ago, and an electrician has gone through and checked the wiring and added grounded outlets. It's hooked up to rural water, so that's good to hear. Has propane heat, as well as electric registers, and central A/C, and the heat and A/C costs seem to be on par with the trailer home we're in now.
Hopefully I'll be able to check it out sooner than later and get an inspector to go through.
Thanks again for all the help! It's bringing up a lot of things we hadn't thought of.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
Yes you are correct. I was overly brief trying to make the point. People will tear into complex cars Do electrical work, HVAC work, plumbing alignment etc etc etc
Yet call a plumber to replace a water heater in their house. Or an electrician to replace a worn outlet.
How much is laziness? How much is misinformed fear? And how much is just a lack of knowledge?
In reply to frenchyd :
I called a plumber to replace my water heater. Between my back surgery and the ankle surgery I just had there's no F'ing way I'm wrestling a water heater down the stairs, then the old one up the stairs. I also don't have a truck to pick up the water heater, nor take the old one to the dump.
Some things I prefer to pay other people to do. That doesn't mean I'm fearful, misinformed or unknowledgable.
Be ready for very little to be straight and finding years of repairs of various qualities.
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