learn me rifle and sights

Once again, I'm asking the GRM information collective to show me the one true path.

The goal: a scoped rifle that can be used for frequent paper perforation and occasional hog harvesting at approx. 100 yards. The setup should be cheap and durable.

method 1:
Buy an inexpensive, pre-scoped .30-06. (Something like Savage's Axis or 111). Go shoot it. Don't waste time/money messing with it.

Method 2:
buy an inexpensive .30-06 and add a scope. (discussion of scope below)

Method 3:
Against the better judgment of some of you, I'm still considering the idea of putting a telescopic sight on the Mosin. If I do I'd probably prefer a scout mount (sight in front of bolt mechanism) so I do not need to buy a bent bolt

Should I just go with a pre-scoped rifle and be done with it? There's something nifty about the idea of hunting with a Ruskie war club, but would that be throwing good money after bad? If you would opt for adding a scope to a gun that didn't come with one, what would you recommend? It would need to be durable enough to be mounted on a gun that kicks a bit, has at least a moderate amount of magnification, and won't break the bank.

What do you think about rifle scopes like this NcStar scope, this Bushnell Banner, or something similar from Simmons? If I was to do the mosin, would you use a handgun scope or a rifle scope?

At 100 yards you don't need a scope. There are so many other better ways to improve accuracy at that range. IMO

Savage Hog Hunter in .308 Win would be my choice. Handled one at a fun store the other day and nearly walked out with it, despite having no need for one whatsoever.

Any reason you wouldn't consider a .30-30 lever like the Marlin 336?

If you plan to reload, I'd recommend getting either a 25 or 30-06 in a Remington 700 chassis. Then get a scope installed and learn how to zero it. Because if you bhmp the scope in transport it can throw your zero off anyways.

I have read good things about the modern Savage rifles. For the money, I don't think you can go wrong.

There are some mounts for the Mosins out there that does not put the scope way out, requiring an extended/long eye relief scope. I would go for that over the scout type long eye relief, but that's just me. Long eye relief scopes are certainly accurate and all that, I just don't like the way they look on a rifle. Anyway, I'd get a proper mount, have it mounted (or do it myself) and get a nice scope in the $100 range if I was going to scope my Mosin. There are also reproduction WWII sniper mounts and scope sets available.

I have a scope very similar to that ncstar that I paid ~30 for. I think $115 is too much. Check out sportsmans guide or natchezss.com.

ronholm wrote: At 100 yards you don't need a scope. There are so many other better ways to improve accuracy at that range. IMO

Maybe it is just the iron sights of the Mosin, but my front post hides the target even at 50 yards. I'd like to see the target when I shoot, and preferably have enough magnification to be able to see where the bullets are hitting it.

Will wrote: Savage Hog Hunter in .308 Win would be my choice. Handled one at a fun store the other day and nearly walked out with it, despite having no need for one whatsoever.

I've never seen one up close, but have read about them. I like the ugly, matt green toss-it-around finish. $500 + the scope is a little higher than I'd like, though.......$400 with scope would make me a happy camper.

Will wrote: Any reason you wouldn't consider a .30-30 lever like the Marlin 336?

none at all. I just named something that seemed reasonable for pigs. I'm sure that would also do fine. Did you have a specific one in mind?

yamaha wrote: If you plan to reload, I'd recommend getting either a 25 or 30-06 in a Remington 700 chassis. Then get a scope installed and learn how to zero it. Because if you bhmp the scope in transport it can throw your zero off anyways.

I'd rather avoid the 700 entirely. The fire-without-trigger-use thing scares me.

Yes, I know it's the basis of many the nifty long range military toys. Yes, I know that they've sold as many as McDonald's hamburgers without incident, and that the ones having problems had trigger jobs. Still, not going there. Feel free to call me a wimp.

They were all caused by improper modifications? Winchester 70 is a valid and respectable option.

The axis is supposed to be good, but after my treatment over a warranty issue, Savage will never get another cent from me.

Edit, nvm, noticed your price range. Just get a 4 power PU scope designed for the mosin.

From what I hear, the newer Marlins made after the Remington takeover (~late 2009-up) have pretty hit-or-miss quality. Pre-Remington Marlins have this JM stamp on the left side of the barrel, just ahead of the receiver:

Remington-built guns have a REP stamp on the right side of the barrel. So if it were me, I'd find a slightly used JM-stamped 336. The price should be well inside your range, even for a very nice used rifle.

ETA: No, the .30-30 doesn't have as much power as a .308/7.62 NATO...it's about equal to a 7.62x39. Should still be plenty for a pig if you hit it in the right spot.

ronholm wrote: At 100 yards you don't need a scope. There are so many other better ways to improve accuracy at that range. IMO

At a local autocross you don't "need" R-compound tires, but they sure do make it fun and easy.

If you'r out there and don't want a hassle (you probably don't) get a scoped Rem 700 or Savage equivalent shooting 30-06 or .308 or, really, whatever is most commonly available in your area right now. I know over here that .223 is a buck a shot from a retailer. Couple of boxes to break it in a get it sighted and you're good to go.

jg

And are these nuisance pigs, or ones that you are stalking for dinner? Not that it makes too much difference. A Mini-14 would also be on my list. Good luck getting one of those right now, though.

AR and AK prices are through the roof. Every day I get an email from my local gun club pres. that someone's asking $2500 for an off-the-shelf AR clone. And a couple hours later I find out he gets it. If nothing else, we're awesome at cashing in on tragedies for personal gain.

jg

JG Pasterjak wrote:

ronholm wrote: At 100 yards you don't need a scope. There are so many other better ways to improve accuracy at that range. IMO

At a local autocross you don't "need" R-compound tires, but they sure do make it fun and easy jg

And there was just a thread about r comps in which many agreed they hide mistakes.

LOL.

At 100 yards a scope is nothing more than a toy for a newer shooter. (which there is nothing wrong with that) Learning how to maintain a proper sight picture, or even better doing so with both eyes open will improve his shooting more than a scope.

If this was a new driver at an autocross looking to improve I know you guys would recommend working on the driver as opposed to looking for new toys

If the purpose though is shiny new toys. Remi 700 based is the only choice. (yeah I read what ya wrote)

Buy the best scope you can afford. Think of it as an investment. If you buy a "bigger, better" gun, you already have a very nice scope in which to mount.

If you 're still even thinking about scoping the Mosin-Nagant, the first thing you need to do is carefully determine the condition of the barrel and the accuracy potential of the rifle. At the very least you'll want to make sure there's no significant wear on the lands, particularly around the chamber mouth and at the muzzle end. Inspect the crown and, if necessary, recrown the muzzle. If the barrel checks out, take the rifle and a few types of ammunition to the range with a bench rest, lock it down and shoot a few groups (after heating it up with some warm-up rounds). MN's are fairly picky about ammunition; heavy ball vs. light ball, steel case vs. brass case, and bullet diameter (unworn MN bores will slug out anywhere anywhere from .308 to about .311). If the rifle can be accurate enough for your purposes, then think about the scope.

If 100 yards is your theoretical maximum range, a low power, wide angle scope is what you want. Maybe 4x or so will be fine. Last I looked, which was a while back, there were a few mount options, of which "Darrell's" was considered to be the best.

Of the MN's I've fired, some have been tack drivers (mostly Finnish rifles), and some have been bullet chuckers. They are not inherently accurate or inaccurate; they are inconsistent as a type, but individual rifles can be quite good. You usually need to figure out how to make them so, however.

If you want good glass, you're not going to get it on a budget rifle/scope combo. That said the entry level guns from savage(11/111), ruger (American rifle), and Remington (770) are around the $400 level without scopes, and have had pretty decent reviews and the budget rifle triggers are much closer to the expensive rifle triggers than they used to be. For a few dollars more, you can pick up a used ruger m77 or rem 700 with ok glass on it in the 5-700 range.

Will wrote: Savage Hog Hunter in .308 Win would be my choice. Handled one at a fun store the other day and nearly walked out with it, despite having no need for one whatsoever. Any reason you wouldn't consider a .30-30 lever like the Marlin 336?

if you're going to go that route ... I'd suggest the Marlin .35 .. the knock down power is so much greater ... and depending on the pig you're going after, knockdown power can be a huge +

JG Pasterjak wrote: AR and AK prices are through the roof. Every day I get an email from my local gun club pres. that someone's asking $2500 for an off-the-shelf AR clone. And a couple hours later I find out he gets it. If nothing else, we're awesome at cashing in on tragedies for personal gain. jg

Walmart is still selling DPMS AR's for $587. You better be waiting at the counter when they come in, though.

yamaha wrote: If you plan to reload, I'd recommend getting either a 25 or 30-06 in a Remington 700 chassis. Then get a scope installed and learn how to zero it. Because if you bhmp the scope in transport it can throw your zero off anyways.

Beump?

I'll go out on a limb and suggest something odd. I just sold my 45-70 Handi-Rifle. For a hog gun at less than 100 yards I'd think that would be a pretty tough combo to beat if you can deal with the break action versus the bolt action. You should be able to buy one new for about $250.

If you're tied to a bolt gun, the Mosin is the cheap start for a 30-06 comparable cartridge. You might also look for one of the Steyr Mannlicher "straight pull" surplus rifles in 8x56 Rimmed. It's not very flexible but that straight pull feature is nifty and it hits like a sledgehammer.

Otherwise, I go with the others on a Savage. The aftermarket has stepped up on those and they're supported about as well as the Remington 700.

Any old bolt action with a cheap 4x scope will poke connecting holes in paper at 100 yds. unless you are having the DTs.

I am a big .06 fan but have been using a .270 more and more. It is your standard hickory stock sporting variant of the dreaded Rem 700 chassis and it's a nice GREAT rifle. If you are afraid of it for the stated reasons then the Winchester 70 is equally great.

Either round is easy to find reload dies and supplies for. The .06 comes in heavier grains and can make bigger holes in pigs but the .270 shoots flat enough that you can knock the flies of the pig one by one at 300 yards with the varmint grains. Not to say the .06 can't... I have no complaints with either it's just the .270 is my current favorite "flavor of the month".

This reminds me... need to go shooting...

yamaha wrote: They were all caused by improper modifications?

Some trigger mods and aftermarket triggers for the 700 do cause firing without pulling the trigger. CNBC did a story about remmington 700s and accidental discharges. They had stories about people accidentally killed, supposedly by discharge from 700s without anyone touching the trigger. It included video and LEO/marine snipers demonstrating this type of discharge on guns with trigger modifications.

It appears that remmington considers any modifications to be improper. This is the central theme of Remmington's official response:

Both Remmington and experts hired by plaintiff's attorneys have tested accident guns which were alleged to have fired without a trigger pull, and neither has ever been able to duplicate such an event on guns which were properly maintained and which had not been altered after sale.

The entire response is 14 minutes long, and it is worth watching all of it so you can hear the company's side. They correctly note that the military still buys a buttload of the things, and that their training manuals now tell people not to monkey with the triggers anymore. (I guess that used to be pretty common.)

None of this matters in my situation. The 700 can definitely be set up to drive tacks at 500 yards, but I'm only looking to kill pigs at 100 yards. It is more gun than I need, and MAY under SOME setups, have discharge issues. That would be enough to make me avoid gun, but it costs more than I'm willing to spend anyway.

stroker wrote: I'll go out on a limb and suggest something odd. I just sold my 45-70 Handi-Rifle. For a hog gun at less than 100 yards I'd think that would be a pretty tough combo to beat if you can deal with the break action versus the bolt action. You should be able to buy one new for about $250.

Buds has a few in the $250-$300 range. I'll give that some consideration. I have a couple break action shotguns

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Any old bolt action with a cheap 4x scope will poke connecting holes in paper at 100 yds. unless you are having the DTs.

DTs?

Appleseed wrote: Buy the best scope you can afford. Think of it as an investment. If you buy a "bigger, better" gun, you already have a very nice scope in which to mount.

OK, back on topic.....are there any brands of scope you would avoid like the plague? Are there any brands that have durable entry level scopes that surprised you with their accuracy? What would you recommend if I was looking for a scope that was at or below $250

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/browse/scopes-scopes.aspx?c=134&s=6&d=125
Nikon® Coyote Special 3-9x40 mm Rifle Scope
Nikon® XR Inline 3-9x40 mm BDC Scope
This optimistically named 3-25x56 mm scope
Nikko Nighteater 12x50 mm
Bushnell
Redfield
Burris
barska
mueller
carson
BSA

They all have some thing around that price here

Not sure of the "bad" ones. All I, or my family shot was Leupold. Very nice, very accurate, not cheap. But you may find a Vari-X II used for under $250.

E-Bay example-with rings

Steer clear of Bushnell, bariska, and BSA......my friend and I ran into issue with all three not holding zero from just recoil.

I bought my 700 barely used with a really nice tasco world class sitting on top for $375. The only downside to that scope is the lack of external turrets, as it has covers for the adjustments. I've had to zero it a total of three times in the 7 years I've owned it. 2" groups at 700yds is pretty awesome for sub $400....

JoeyM wrote: DTs?

Delirium Tremen ( "the shakes") is mainly caused after a long period of drinking, being stopped abruptly and experiencing withdrawal, leading to the biochemical regulation cascade. It may also be triggered by head injury, infection, or illness in people with a history of heavy use of alcohol. Yet another cause of delirium tremens is abrupt cessation of tranquilizer drugs of the barbiturate or benzodiazepine classes in a patient with a relatively strong addiction to them.