OHSCrifle said:In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
Did you wire it yourself? Looks pretty easy. I've been inside a de-energized panel before and connected the dots.
Yep. The box I bought came with an instructional DVD that made it pretty easy. Nowadays they probably just give you a link to a Youtube video.
OHSCrifle said:how realistic is using a modern electric or hybrid vehicle to power a couple things like a refrigerator and the fan in a tankless gas water heater for a while?
F150 Lightning?
It's realistic if your EV has the right hardware, like the Lightning does. Good for emergencies, just keep in mind that your EV isn't going anywhere unless you want to shut the house down. The Lightning really started this as a concept in people's minds, and I think it's a good one if you're going to have a massive battery sitting around that's almost always fully charged. Might as well take advantage. Just be aware of the limitations :)
I have a doodad on my desk that I built that shows the output from my solar array in 15 minute increments as a bar graph. It amuses me and I find it interesting overall. But it also tells me:
- I can tell how sunny it is outside by just glancing at the display, because the power production mirrors the amount of cloud in the sky
- the array produces power pretty much any time there is any light outside
- the only thing that stops the array dead is nightime or snow
- over the course of the year, the amount of available power from solar varies fairly dramatically as the days get longer and the sun's angle changes
All this is fairly obvious stuff, but it's cool to see it. Also, our array is net positive something like 9 months of the year. This means it produces enough power during 10-ish hours of sunlight to run the house for 24 hours or more for those 9 months. It should be able to keep up with house load while the sun is shining, the meter almost never runs forward during the day. To use solar as a daytime generator, you'd need enough battery to smooth things out if you're running close to the amount of power it can generate so it doesn't keep dropping in and out. The bigger the array, the smaller that battery would need to be...right? You also need that battery to form the grid that will energize the array, the array is designed so that it shuts down without the grid feed as a safety measure and I think maybe some technical reasons to do with correct grid forming. It would be an interesting project.
Note that my project is assuming a pre-existing solar installation with a grid tie. If the grid goes down, so does the array. I'm looking at what it would require to take advantage of that array during a multi-day grid outage when I'm mostly concerned with temperature management. It's mostly a theoretical thing, because it would be awfully hard to arrange for that outage. We're surprisingly decentralized when it comes to power generation in this town.
The generator is by and far the best option here. Total off grid , especially if you want to have normal appliances, is a very costly solution.
Plus if you do in the future want to go totally off grid, a whole house generator will not go to waste
Keith Tanner said:When scaling these systems, take into account if you're willing to operate at lower power levels during an outage. For example, I'm mostly interested in keeping cold things cold so we don't lose food and being able to run the furnace (hot water) if necessary. I'm less interested in being able to watch Netflix or even charge the EV, those are things I can do away from home.
This is key.
I have investigated building my own battery/solar backup system that is small. During an outage in summer I'm usually mobile so its not that bad. In winter if there is an ice storm and I am stuck at home, I just want to be able to turn on a couple reading lights, watch tv, or use a computer. Basically not die of boredom when it gets dark at 4:30pm. Small electronics take very little power.
In reply to ProDarwin :
Books and candles even less :)
Building to survive an ice storm might be a challenge, as that's exactly when you'll have the weakest solar - buildup on the panels, short days and a low sun. You'll be running almost exclusively off battery, and at that point you might as well skip the solar part.
Designing for a system that allows for an uninterrupted US lifestyle is a very different beast.
So I haven't heard back from the solar company yet, but Generac is sending someone out in a few weeks to work up and estimate on what the generator would cost.
I don't think our power company does any different pricing based on the grid load- for better or worse, most of Kentucky's power still comes from coal I believe and we have some of the lowest electrical rates in the country as a result- I'm not even certain these days if they do anything regarding selling excess power from a solar setup at all. Honestly, I like the idea of solar- but I'm not certain that it will end up being worth it since I know we won't be staying in this house long enough to break even on the cost.
I wouldn't mind something like a battery setup capable of keeping the essentials running through the night that a generator could recharge during the day while also powering things, but I imagine that kind of setup would end up being close to the cost of just having a natural gas generator while being less convenient.
I don't have direct experience with solar or a generator. I'll just toss out there my recent experiences as possible points to ponder.
I rode out Hurricane Ian. Direct hit. 2 weeks with no power and water.
Before the storm the food we purchased and cooked were deliberate decisions. We knew we'd be without power so we wanted to minimize the lost food in the refrigerator. That coupled with the low temps after the storm meant we could to without power for 2 weeks. Had it been cold, or hot, we'd have been very uncomfortable, or frozen. The difference is we knew this was coming, we could plan for it. That's uncommon in the rest of the country so being prepared ahead of time is paramount.
We were very surprised how many solar arrays were nearly, or completely untouched. My son and I watched a company putting panels on a roof the day before Ian made landfall. We scoffed! Those panels were fine. Amazing. Here's the thing though. A lot of functioning arrays were removed because the roof around/under them was destroyed. Now the owner has panels in the shed awaiting a new roof.....6 months later.
A friend has a whole house generator. Something like 12 or 14 kW. He was functioning like nothing happened. But his system was expensive and has only been used once in 10 years. He has a 200 lb propane tank buried underground to feed it.
Like others have said, the batteries are the big expense, followed by the inverter/charge controller. Panels are cheap.
A generator is expensive, rock solid, but is only an insurance policy and usually still rely on public utilities (that rarely fail).
I was designing my shed to be an off-grid office. But the batteries for that small setup put it out of the realm of financially responsible.
Ashyukun (Robert) said:I don't think our power company does any different pricing based on the grid load- for better or worse, most of Kentucky's power still comes from coal I believe and we have some of the lowest electrical rates in the country as a result- I'm not even certain these days if they do anything regarding selling excess power from a solar setup at all. Honestly, I like the idea of solar- but I'm not certain that it will end up being worth it since I know we won't be staying in this house long enough to break even on the cost.
Even in states that get tons of sun and incentivize solar via tax breaks and net metering, most of the payback timelines that I see are 7 years or more for a solar installation.
In a place like Kentucky (not super sunny) you'd need a larger array (more upfront expense). The fact that there may not be net metering probably doubles the payback period too. It's probably going to be ~$25k or more for a decent solar setup.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to ProDarwin :
Books and candles even less :)
Building to survive an ice storm might be a challenge, as that's exactly when you'll have the weakest solar - buildup on the panels, short days and a low sun. You'll be running almost exclusively off battery, and at that point you might as well skip the solar part.
Designing for a system that allows for an uninterrupted US lifestyle is a very different beast.
I would even go so far as to say there is no perfect system. All of them are going to have compromises of some sort. A huge generator is an overkill if all you need is to run a light or two and charge a phone. A small generator or battery bank is useless if you want to use your electric range or run an A/C system. It's the same reason they make different sizes of hammers. The big one usually isn't the best for the job but sometimes it's the only thing that will work. You need to figure out what you want in advance and build a system that will do it.
I have a staged backup power plan.
Short term to charge phones and run a light or two, I have a Jackery 1000. It will last a couple of days, even while running my 12V refrigerator. I also have 200 watts of solar to run the fridge and charge the Jackery during the day to stretch the capacity out to weeks. With this, I don't have to run a generator 24/7 to keep a light or two on or charge a phone. If the power is out for less than 24 hours this is what we use.
Longer term, I have a Honda 2000eu generator as well as a Predator 3500 inverter. After 24 hours without power, they will be used to charge the Jackery and get the fridge and freezer cold again. Either one will also run a small A/C unit to cool the den if the heat is unbearable. For heat, I have other options that involve fire. For fuel, I keep the RV full so that's 85 gallons of gas to keep the generators fed for months. Add to that the propane-fired fridge and stove, and assuming it's not destroyed a heated and cooled living space if the house is too damaged to live in. An RV makes a pretty good emergency shelter if it survives the storm.
Add to that a propane-fired camp stove, water heater, and 5 - 20-pound bottles of propane and I can hold out for a couple of months in reasonable comfort.
I've done the weeks without power and it wasn't fun.
Maybe you want the solar setup with a battery bank and a generator as well.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to ProDarwin :
Books and candles even less :)
Building to survive an ice storm might be a challenge, as that's exactly when you'll have the weakest solar - buildup on the panels, short days and a low sun. You'll be running almost exclusively off battery, and at that point you might as well skip the solar part.
Designing for a system that allows for an uninterrupted US lifestyle is a very different beast.
Agreed, I've looked at doing something that is effectively just a larger scale UPS. Solar would not be needed at all.
Books and candles aren't bad but they do get dull after a while, especially for a 7 year old. Its nice to be able to watch a movie or play a video game.
Ashyukun (Robert) said:So I haven't heard back from the solar company yet, but Generac is sending someone out in a few weeks to work up and estimate on what the generator would cost.
I don't think our power company does any different pricing based on the grid load- for better or worse, most of Kentucky's power still comes from coal I believe and we have some of the lowest electrical rates in the country as a result- I'm not even certain these days if they do anything regarding selling excess power from a solar setup at all. Honestly, I like the idea of solar- but I'm not certain that it will end up being worth it since I know we won't be staying in this house long enough to break even on the cost.
I wouldn't mind something like a battery setup capable of keeping the essentials running through the night that a generator could recharge during the day while also powering things, but I imagine that kind of setup would end up being close to the cost of just having a natural gas generator while being less convenient.
Admittedly I was only there for a bit but I don't really remember your house getting a ton of sun so solar probably isn't a great solution there either.
And off grid is cool, but it's not easy or cheap. To do it right you need to do a lot of planning too. I'm the only one here that's totally off grid and I use very little electricity, using an online calculator it says I use about 17kw/h a month, it's virtually nothing. That requires all gas appliances, wood heat, no real need for a/c most the time and basically a couple lights. It allows me to have a smaller/cheaper system. I actually don't have a lot of solar because of the deep woods I live in
In reply to ProDarwin :
I'm thinking EV-to-home is a good use case for you, might as well have a UPS you can use for other things :) And heck, some of them do movies and video games natively.
I have to say that this thread made me look up the power generation for my area, and it was surprisingly diverse. We have one power plant per 15k people, and there's solar, hydro and NG here in the valley. That hopefully will make it more robust. We also don't tend to get natural disasters, the worst is fire and our environment gives us a desert fire break to the big ones.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to ProDarwin :
I'm thinking EV-to-home is a good use case for you, might as well have a UPS you can use for other things :) And heck, some of them do movies and video games natively.
It would definitely be a good use case. I don't have an EV. I do have an order in for a Maverick and I would love if that had a house-power option similar to the F150 Hybrid.
In reply to Antihero :
Our house gets a fair amount of sun, but admittedly we're not far enough south to be in the ideal areas for solar. While we do have 2 large trees, they don't really shade the roof- but going through one of the online estimators linked earlier it came back as being like 25 years to break even on a solar setup, and I know we won't be here that long (the amount of stairs in this house already gives us trouble, and will only get worse as we age...).
I'm curious to see what the contractor quotes for the generator setup- we can probably get by with a somewhat smaller one if we're willing to not worry about being able to power everything (for example, the hot tub won't be part of the calculation- and while it would be the most comfortable, not worrying about the central A/C would obviously help- though having enough capacity for a window unit for our bedroom would be good). Since we have all gas appliances, I imagine our requirements to keep the house running mostly normally should be pretty reasonable compared to the more common (these days) all-electric houses.
Looking at our electric account, it looks like we average about 5.5kWh/day, peaking around 7.25 at the height of summer. I imagine without the A/C and hot tub that 5kWh/day would be enough to keep things running mostly normally. It's a bit surprising that up you're only using 17kWh/month- the lowest usage we have is about 800/month, but I guess not having the climate control really using electric at all makes a difference, and I don't know how your place compares size-wise to ours (and I also know ours is pretty horribly insulated so not very energy efficient).
In reply to Ashyukun (Robert) :
My house is about 1700sq ft and insulated very well. Basically our power usage is a couple LED 100w equivalent lights, charging up a laptop and phones and a little bit of TV. Propane fridge/water heater/stove, wood heat and I as a habit use as little power as possible.
I can't be sure the 17kw figure is perfect though the last time I had a power bill it was about $80 with 2 a/c units going 24/7 so I don't think I was using that much even then.
ProDarwin said:Ashyukun (Robert) said:
As a final aside- yes, I realize that in theory this is a very rare event and it's likely we won't ever really need any of these... this is the first time in the nearly a decade we've lived here that the power has been out for more than an hour.
Ashyukun (Robert) said:Solar Panels + Battery
Pros:
- Useful all the time and not just during a power outage, offsetting our power bill
I think this is the most important part for a financial decision like this.
Definitely get a few quotes, find your tax deductions, and crunch the numbers. Of the quotes I got for solar, using their optimistic energy production numbers, it was going to take me about 48 years to recoup the cost of adding solar to my roof.
Those fancy ads that say "zero out of pocket costs," actually sometimes means "you pay 6 figures for it all up front, then some day when your grandchildren are on their deathbed, it will finally pay for itself."
For the record, I desperately WANT to go solar/backup battery, but in the meantime I'll add an on-demand generator if my gas supply line will support it with my furnace. I have a free one that I ripped out of the basement at work. Separate out circuits for the freezer, fridge, microwave, and some entertainment stuff and I run those essentials on generator.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Re: solar payback. Yes, do the math. But realize that every other option in this thread has essentially zero payback.
In reply to ProDarwin :
It can work. I saved close to $400 on electricity over the past 12 months and have something like $450 worth of credits towards future electric use. That's taking into account the payments on the array, and with no money down. Meanwhile, we're protected against electricity rate changes - and since most of our driving is via an EV that's charged at home, we're also immune to gasoline price fluctuations.
May not work for everyone, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone. And if it has the potential (is that an electricity pun? Sure) to also help with backup power, bonus.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Part of my calculations are centered around the fact that I live alone in a tiny house and my electricity is 12 cents/kwh. I can't remember the last time my electric bill was over $150, usually more like $75-100 in the winter because I heat with gas. I also (because tiny house) don't have a lot of roof real estate to fit a lot of panels. So, like you said, it's going to be different for everyone.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Our electricity is 9.9c/kWh before the add-ins, I think it ends up about 13c. We heat with gas as well - the AC units on my shop in the summer are the big consumers. Maybe a better way to look at it is that I have decreased my total electric bill by 15% and I have enough capacity to increase consumption by nearly 20% without affecting my costs (or the array is 20% too big, but really it's overproducing versus the estimates).
But we have all the sunshine and all the roof space on my shop with no shade. It's pretty much an ideal install.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Need a roommate? :)
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
I'm not sure Janel would be on board, although she does like the big Cadillacs...
Like others have said. If you hook solar up to the grid it does not function when there is a power outage so that's not going to work for a backup. If you don't hook up to the grid there is no pay back
In reply to BlindPirate :
This is my understanding as well and jsut seems silly to be an actual issue. Wouldn't a handful of lead acid batteries and a grid disconnect sort this out pretty easily? I hate the idea of not being able to use a pwoer source when it's most needed.
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