Let's talk about a sensitive subject...

When this pic popped up... errr, appeared in the hotlink thread, it was kind of synchronous with a completely unrelated "discussion" I had been having on FB on the same topic. I follow a humanist / atheist commentator who had started a topic on circumcision, and the religious / ethical / medical reasons for and against. I posted the following (sorry about the TMI, but it's relevant):

Duke wrote: I'm circumcised, I'm glad I am, and I harbor no problems or secret trauma from it. I would have had my sons circumcised, except I had daughters. Who I did not get circumcised. Yes, it's different.

...in reply to which I was the subject of some serious vitriol and wild accusations. Like these:

Flakejob #1 wrote: You just live in a culture where it is common so that is your default opinion, like a cud-chewing sheep following the herd, unable to think critically.

Flakejob #2 wrote: Im glad you never had sons. You would have abused them sexually like a little pervert. Oh you do harbour problems. You are just too stupid to see it.

Flakejob #3 wrote: Good for you. That doesn't mean your son's will be thankful for being strapped to a board against their will, and having their genitals ripped apart for no medical reason and no numbing agent.

Wow. Really? Now let's be clear - female circumcision is truly mutilation and is done for a variety of terrible reasons, none in the best interest of the girl / woman. In cultures that circumcise females, it also tends to be done at puberty rather than at birth. It's bad. Not approvable.

I am also not in favor of ritual male circumcision. If you're going to do it, it should be done like the surgery it is, under sanitary medical conditions. Not by some 80-year-old mohel under unknown conditions.

But seriously, these folks apparently know better than I do just how brutalized I was by something that happened well before my earliest memories, and was completely wrapped up in the general trauma of simply being born.

I'm having a normal sex life. I don't think I'm missing anything. If sex felt any better, I'd be on here asking for advice on a different problem! I really am failing to see how I've been victimized here. But apparently I'm too stupid to know it and I am a barbaric pederast for suggesting that I probably would have had my sons circumcised like I am.

Thoughts? And please, let's keep it at least reasonably serious.

When people who are passionate about an issue react like that, it immediately sets off the "ignore their viewpoint" section of my brain. If you can't make a rational argument and have to spew vitriol and insults, you shall be summarily ignored.

I have a son (I won't divulge mine or his status to avoid anyone having an opinion one way or the other) and I will say it is something I researched, considered, made a decision and have never regretted or thought about for another second. Why people get so invested in such things is beyond me. Get a life Flakejob #2 and quite thinking about little boy's penises...that's creepy.

That doesn't mean it works out well for everyone. Maybe the "no problem" is the most common, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who have issues. I'm one of them.

I don't know what the cause was, maybe they snipped off just a little too much or something, but I did not have enough excess skin to grow into during puberty. As things got bigger, an erection would cause the skin along the scar to tear. We're talking like, paper cut all around right where the head and shaft meet. This lasted all through puberty.

Now, things aren't dysfunctional, but not having extra skin means my partner needs to be extra careful with handies to not pull things too far. It's frustrating.

Ultimately, what's the point? There is no benefit to being circumcised. Sure, most people it doesn't really effect them one way or the other. But the minority of us, it is harmful. Why do something that may cause harm, but has no chance of being beneficial?

I'm not going to lambast or criticise you. Seems you've gotten enough of that.

What you need to do is what I suggest everyone needs to do and look objectively at the medical facts both in favor and against circumcision.

Like most things related to medicine, understanding evolves over time, and these days it would appear that our medical understanding has evolved to a point where we understand that circumcision isn't necessary. It doesn't hold a justifiable benefit that outstrips not doing it.

My father was circumcised, but made the decision not to have my brother and I circumcised based on my mother's view point as well as information provided to him by doctors. This decision was one that wasn't at all popular with his mother, who as an old school nurse had a firmly entrenched view that circumcision was vital to cleanliness and that not doing so would cause problems for us later in life. Mum and dad always educated me from an early age that rolling back my foreskin and cleaning myself properly was an important part of washing myself, the same applied for drying.

All in all, I'm glad my dad made an informed decision with my mum and didn't just go with the "well it was good enough for me " approach. But if I had have been snipped, I doubt I'd resent my parents for it, because it was at a time when it was still quite medically popular to do so and they would have made that decision based on what they believed was in my best interest.

In essence, that's what any parent considering circumcision for their children need to do. Think about the best interest of their child, not tradition. I understand the religious connotations but I'm not touching that, I don't want to start arguments based on that. I don't think it's helpful to the core issue.

This all makes me think of this video It's a comedy song, not pron or anything.

Aside from the whole cosmetics/aesthetics, I don't really see what the big deal is one way or another. Though it has been related to me by a few women how they think unsnipped is rather unnattractive, but for as ingrained into culture as it is, I can understand that.

When I found out the baby's mom was pregnant and started looking on the boards for information and ways to be helpful, I couldn't believe the fights about this topic. Holy E36 M3, you want to see something scary go watch arguments on a pregnancy forum.

Strangely enough, I was just thinking about circumcision the other day. I was wondering why it is done. Is there really no medical reason, then what is the point? BTW, I don't appear to have suffered any ill effects and cannot remember the procedure in any way.

Rude song that makes me laugh.

Revrico beat me.

I do find it interesting that female circumcision is a huge topic, and has been transformed to female genital mutilation, while doing the same thing to a male nets very little attention.

I also read an article a few years ago from a guy who figured out how to, using bricks and alligator clips, recreate his foreskin. Really.

T.J. wrote: Strangely enough, I was just thinking about circumcision the other day. I was wondering why it is done. Is there really no medical reason, then what is the point? BTW, I don't appear to have suffered any ill effects and cannot remember the procedure in any way.

Adam Ruins Everything covered this. Basically, John Kellogg (the cornflake guy) thought sex was evil, and thought we should mess with babies genitals so that they wouldn't get pleasure from sex when they became adults.

This is one of those things that if I had wrestled with it beforehand I might not have done it to my own kids but I didn't wrestle. My grandfather, father and I... It was just a thing that doctors did. I don't have any issues with it myself, none of the women-folk who have used mine for their evil purposes have minded the lack of turtleneck sweater and so ... I didn't have any berkeleys to give when the doctor asked wifey and I - but he did and recommended it. Twice. They seem fine and mostly well adjusted. I do agree it's totally unnecessary and a bit silly, maybe cruel on some level about even with piercing a babies ears - but - done is done. I wouldn't do it again now. If there were to be reparations for us "cut folks" though, like a block of government cheese or something... sign me up for my perceived suffering whatever that was.

My 16yr old is desperately trying to use his for something other than pissing and soiling tissues but his game is not strong. The jury on whether women will scream and reject him because of his hideous mutilation will have to wait. It gives me comfort to know it's parked for the time being so I'm not helping with charm lessons

I am, no issues here. My wife thinks uncut guys look "weird".

My best friend decided against it for his own son. Kid is 10 years old and is being a disgusting little boy in regards to personal cleanliness and is having infections as a result. It's his own fault, dad has explained to him why he needs to wash properly but he's a kid.

I do find it interesting that female circumcision is a huge topic, and has been transformed to female genital mutilation, while doing the same thing to a male nets very little attention.

The reason why it nets less attention is it's not the same thing. FGM involves cutting off a lot more significant parts than traditional male circumcision.

People do studies on it showing benefits and drawbacks, but they're all fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. Increased rates of various STD transmission vs a small risk of significant injury/infection/etc due to botching the job, stuff like that.

Good job on an interesting discussion! We ended up with a daughter so no hard thought on that front.

And no, there is no comparison between male and female circumcision. Female circumcision is a euphemism for genital mutilation.

I know multiple people with botched work. Knew of one guy that literally didn't have a working unit. Bad circ basically made him a unic. Small percentage chance, but of lifelong consequences. Also, I'm told it makes you less sensitive which makes sense as the skin is exposed and ...? weathered?. I'd think most guys could rally around "feels better", no?

Just because it's minor doesn't mean it's not mutilation either. "Let me scar up your face, but just a little."

Edit: yes yes FGM is way way worse I know. Friend did a study on it once. Truly horrific.

I cannot imagine needing it to be -more- sensitive than it already is.

I could do with a bit less sensitivity, maybe my doc can do it a second time.

Trans_Maro wrote: I am, no issues here. My wife thinks uncut guys look "weird". My best friend decided against it for his own son. Kid is 10 years old and is being a disgusting little boy in regards to personal cleanliness and is having infections as a result. It's his own fault, dad has explained to him why he needs to wash properly but he's a kid.

Give him a couple of years and a bottle of liquid bath soap, and he'll be just as clean as a whistle. Two or three times a day.

jcrosby wrote: Also, I'm told it makes you less sensitive which makes sense as the skin is exposed and ...? weathered?. I'd think most guys could rally around "feels better", no?

More sensitivity!? Sweet holy hell - it's already something of an effort to go for a full three strokes without thinking of baseball. How much more do I need?

pinchvalve wrote: When people who are passionate about an issue react like that, it immediately sets off the "ignore their viewpoint" section of my brain.

I couldn't have said it better.

If you had some botched disaster of a circumcision surgery, sure, I understand why you might become an activist... but there are so many women who get almost militant about this subject; I don't understand what gives. I don't see many activists crusading against other types of elective surgeries.

In reply to Beer Baron:

The "Adam ruins" sums up what I was going to say. Mine was done but as I got older and more worldly I wondered why. My hootus is my best friend and any part of him seems like a bad part to lose. So when I had a son we (I) opted to have him left au naturale.

The dumbest argument "for" that I hear is "it should look like his father/uncle/grandpa...." WHAT??! What sort of weirdo family sits around comparing tackle between generations??

I expect in a few more years my son will thank me for not allowing an amputation to have occurred on his junk without his knowledge or consent.

I file it in the same place as my appendectomy.

Removal of a small, nearly useless appendage that I never worried about anyway.

As for the "looking like everyone else". It seems like conformity is not as necessary now as it was when I was in highschool.

It's perfectly fine for kids to look different from other kids in school now but for us gen-x folks, any deviation from standard, no matter how small was cause for bullying and harassment. I'm glad I looked like (almost) every other guy in the locker room.

Considering what has become normal, I wonder how many of the "flakejobs" in the O.P.'s post look like they fell face-first into a tacklebox. There's no good reason to have your ear-loops either but if you want to look like that, go right ahead.

All I know is my wife's uncle was never circumcised and had issues in his late 50's and had to go in to get circumcised.

I found it interesting that everybody in the entire family knew he was having this done and they all discussed his future sex life.

In reply to Trans_Maro:

Exactly right, "if YOU want to" being the key part to your statement. Nobody asked me if wanted a firehat.

If it bothers you that badly, I'm sure there is cosmetic surgery available to repair the problem.

I'm sure there are folks upset at having their vestigial tail removed without their consent as well. Is that mutilation?

In reply to Beer Baron:

Well, and that was kind of my point above - female circumcision is much more radical than male, and much more directly aimed at inhibiting sexual pleasure.

I am truly saddened to hear of your difficulties. In all sincerity you have my sympathy. You're the first person I've known firsthand (more or less) who experienced real side effects.

Never thought I'd learn so much about penises here... peni.... wait. Whats the plural of penis?

Keeping unclipped kids clean and healthy is a regular maintenance issue, and it becomes an issue again when an elderly relative can no longer take care of themselves (alzheimer's/dementia, etc.). Thorough cleaning becomes a daily maintenance task for their caretakers, otherwise adhesions and infection can occur.

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