Live and let live, it not my business really, but...

There is a guy I've known through business for 30 years or so.  Not friends who go out for supper, but friends who have good visits at work quite regularly. 

He was quite drunk at 11:00  this morning.  Said his wife was mad, because it was her birthday yesterday and he stayed at the shop and drank...

I sat down, and he told me that his best friend killed himself a month ago, and he was feeling bad, guilty because he didn't see it coming, so I sympathized, talked a bit about death and life, losing friends, that sort of stuff.  Gave him a long, manly handshake, looked in the eyes, typical man stuff.

Told another friend later, and he knows the ex wife of the guy, and they are worried about him because he's been pissed for a month...

So... Do I go see him tomorrow and tell him I'm worried about him?  Just go talk about fishing?  Leave it to a professional?  Stuff my head in the sand and hope he finds his way back?

Go be with him.  Dont pry, dont push but be there.  Let him know you are concerned.   Most often people who are struggling feel alone and do their best to push people away so they can be alone.  Its not really what they want or need and its not healthy but its a real effort to give in and ask for help.  Sometimes just having someone around is enough and sometimes they'll open up.  If you dont feel you are the person for the job at least converse more with his friends and family and see to it that someone steps up for him.

If you see a problem, you do what you can to fix the problem.  Anything else and you get the world we are currently living in.

Shared pain is lessened. Shared joy is increased. Thus we refute entropy. - Jake Stonebender

My take on it is that if I were stumbling down a spiral like that, I hope I'd be appreciative of anyone who offered to help.

I'd stop by and let him know you're thinking of him.

Mr_Asa said:

If you see a problem, you do what you can to fix the problem.  Anything else and you get the world we are currently living in.

Shared pain is lessened. Shared joy is increased. Thus we refute entropy. - Jake Stonebender

Im a big fan of that.  I shared that quote years ago with an old Volvo driving priest.  I presume I'd helped him with a sermon or two, because it's the by gosh truth.

I guess I should have thought of Spider Robinson myself.

Knew a guy who sounds exactly like what you describe. Drank his business into the ground a couple years ago.

Boss offered to take him to meetings with no luck.

Haven't seen him in over a year, I hope he's ok but I doubt it.

He has to want help, you can't make him change.

I'm a mixed bag on that. Probably because of how my life is right now with young kids. On the one hand, there's crazy and drama a person doesn't need in their life. On the other, if you think the person is at risk, it's a bit of a moral imperative to make an attempt. 

Before you engage, determine where your lines are, how much of yourself you can give.

I feel like an ass saying it, but the ability to curate the drama I allow in my life has been a major item of work for me for the last several years. I've backed way away from needy family because I don't have the capacity to deal with it having kids and generally for my own psychological well-being.

The best advice I can give beyond that is you can lead him to help, but you can't make him accept help. I would try to convince him to engage a mental health professional.

ShawnG said:

Knew a guy who sounds exactly like what you describe. Drank his business into the ground a couple years ago.

Boss offered to take him to meetings with no luck.

Haven't seen him in over a year, I hope he's ok but I doubt it.

He has to want help, you can't make him change.

Not sure whether there is an alcohol problem, or a depression problem.  One manifests as the other, surely, but I think he's masking pain just now.

A month is a short period of time.  I wouldn't do anything yet

Streetwiseguy said:

Mr_Asa said:

If you see a problem, you do what you can to fix the problem.  Anything else and you get the world we are currently living in.

Shared pain is lessened. Shared joy is increased. Thus we refute entropy. - Jake Stonebender

Im a big fan of that.  I shared that quote years ago with an old Volvo driving priest.  I presume I'd helped him with a sermon or two, because it's the by gosh truth.

I guess I should have thought of Spider Robinson myself.

I read the Callahan books, as well as certain Pratchett books, when I'm hurting for whatever reason.  Been reading through them a decent amount recently.

I reckon I agree with what Mr_Asa wrote.  Frequently, 'being there' is the important part... if only to get things rolling.  You're giving someone your most valuable asset: time.

Although, I also agree that the grief and alcohol aspects of this could complicate that original simplicity;  so.. be careful and protect your own mental state, family needs.

I'd go see him, maybe not talk about anything heavy, maybe not talk at all. Just be a friend. I have a friend I've known for over 25 years. Together we have been through three divorces, the death of my second wife and the death of both of his parents. Sometimes we just hang out in the shop and work on the car. Sometimes we just drive, may not say ten words the whole time, but we're there for each other. 

Talk to the guy. Listen to whatever he wants to talk about. Losing a close friend by their own hand really messes with your head. You will never get answers to the questions your head demands you ask yourself. Guy probably needs professional help, but he needs someone to let him know it is okay to see a professional. It isn't weaknes. He may only listen to someone who has dug themselves out of the same hole though.

I'm personally the type of guy who would definitely say "I'm worried about you." I'm the huggy, half-estrogen version of a man. Not saying you need to be that kind of guy, but he might be in a real crisis, and he may not be the type of guy who would seek professional help.

Mental health is something that so many men are taught to suck up, bury under addictions, and "big boys don't cry."  BullE36 M3.  We are just as fragile and damageable as anyone.  My guess is that if you're a little vulnerable with him, he might be a lot vulnerable with you.  You don't need to heal him, you need to hear him.  His sadness/anger/whatever hasn't been given the voice it may need.  He needs a safe space where he feels un-judged... where the "big boys don't cry" rule doesn't exist.  Even if he doesn't open up about it, just hearing that someone cares might be enough.

I remember in 2001 when I moved to New Orleans in the RV.  I parked next to a camper that housed a cop who had separated from his wife.  He was the ultimate "manly handshake" kind of person.  We became great friends.  Still have a key to his sailboat 20 years later.  He was always so good at putting up a front and making jokes like "ask me how I lost 150 lbs by getting a divorce lawyer," or "my motorcycle rides so much better without the bitch on the back."  He came over to my camper one day before a bike ride we had planned and he said "I talked with Melissa (the ex) today."  All I said was, "do you want to talk about it."  I gave him a safe space to just accept caring.

JThw8 said:

Go be with him.  Dont pry, dont push but be there.  Let him know you are concerned.   Most often people who are struggling feel alone and do their best to push people away so they can be alone.  Its not really what they want or need and its not healthy but its a real effort to give in and ask for help.  Sometimes just having someone around is enough and sometimes they'll open up.  If you dont feel you are the person for the job at least converse more with his friends and family and see to it that someone steps up for him.

This. This. This. You don't have to overthink it or fix anything (which you couldn't anyway). It doesn't have to be a lot of time either. A quick visit to know someone likes spending time with him can go a long ways. Talk to the rest of his circle either way, too.

If something bad happens, will you be able to look yourself in the mirror and not flinch?

You can't control what another person will do, and you can't save somebody that doesn't want saving, but only can judge what sort of effort is "good enough" in this situation. Just be sure you realize what sort of effort you're willing to put forth, and do that. Do what you can, but don't make his demons your own. 

You're not going to make things worse for him by being there. You're not going to make things worse by saying he's dealing with E36 M3. You're not going to make things worse by saying you're worried.

You're also not going to fix him. He's gotta do that himself.

But maybe you'll help open a door for him to want help.

Also might not hurt to talk to his wife, or find someone who can. She's probably the person who he needs the most support and understanding from, but she probably also needs someone who can be supportive for her.

Simple question, what the downside of saying something?

I don't see one, anyone else?

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) said:

If something bad happens, will you be able to look yourself in the mirror and not flinch?

You can't control what another person will do, and you can't save somebody that doesn't want saving, but only can judge what sort of effort is "good enough" in this situation. Just be sure you realize what sort of effort you're willing to put forth, and do that. Do what you can, but don't make his demons your own. 

This is more or less what I was gonna post.

It's a tough time of the year anyway for many people. Add into the mix the whole Covid thing and people are just not in their "normal place". If he is having a genuine life crisis on top of the times we're living in, my vote is to reach out and go grab a coffe somewhere. It doesn't hurt to reach out and use the holidays as a convenient excuse. 

I drove past his shop today, lights were out, then later his brother's truck was parked out front, so I let it go for now.

Something that hasn't come up yet is Seasonal Affective Disorder.

Lived in Anchorage for a while and knew someone who had it.  Spring and summer she was fine.  Fall and winter she turned gloomy.  Finally saw a doc, got some meds, and and it got manageable.  Leaving Alaska for Arizona solved her problem.

Since the days do tend to get a bit short in Saskatoon in the winter, it is at least plausible as a cause or as contributing to his problems.

Finally, I'm with several others - what's the downside of reaching out?