LM: Buying a new car (ND Miata)

I've been shopping for an ND2. My original plan was to buy a used one. But every used one I have found thus far seems to be within ~$5K of a new one. For that small of a discount, it seems to make sense to just buy a new one instead.

That said, I have not purchased a new car since ~2003. Every car purchase in that interim has been used. And I can count the number of new cars I've purchased ever on less than 1 hand. Given my lack of experience, I'm pretty clueless when it comes to the art of negotiating a "killer" deal. I'm sure some of you are experts at the task and I welcome your advice.

For example, every new ND I've looked at online has a destination fee of $1,165. That seems like nothing but fluff. So is that negotiable? And some of the new NDs I see show a dealer discount off MSRP of ~$2K on the dealer website. Which seems to effectively be the 'S' plan discount folks mentioned in my other ND Miata thread. Is that as low as the dealer is willing to go? Or might they go lower?

And then there is the matter of a trade in (2015 Jaguar F-type R). We'll most likely go that route, as it saves us paying sales tax on the entire purchase price. Is negotiating the value of the trade in simply a boxing match of "I think it's worth $X" and standing my ground?

Use the calculator at bank rate dot com and figure out terms you want on trade (use KBB or similar), add in fees, taxes as appropriate and figure out your budget,  once you know the math head to the dealer.  Eat first and take snacks.  They literally plan to wear you down and get you emotionally attached to the car.  Take two sets of keys.  Be ready to drive home if they jerk you around.  That's pretty much it,  you can always get free accessories out of them at the end when they try to make you buy extras you don't want.  You want all weather mats?  This is your chance.  You have the pen in your hand.  You can put it down.  
 

Have a plan.  Have fun.  Never ever ever give them control over the deal or you'll get hosed over.

P.S. Car dealers hate me more than some members on this forum or they all at least pretend to :).  
 

I've been on the retail side of automotive nearly 20 years, so I have a little bit of insight.

The tldr version is S-plan pricing is about as good as you're going to get. 

To start, I use carsdirect.com to see what incentives are available in your region. 

Then I'd scrutinize that $2k dealer discount you mentioned. It's been en vogue to list first responder/military discounts on the website, then pull the rug in person when you don't qualify.

Timing-wise, you're in a weird spot in the market. New car inventory has started to come back in 2023, but it hasn't been evenly distributed at all. CDJR, Volvo and Buick are absolutely flooded with inventory,  while the Korean & Japanese manufacturers seem to be intentionally limiting new car supply. Add on the fact that you're shopping in Summer, when convertible demand is near peak. Now OP is in FL where weather is pretty nice year round. All that adds up to dealers that might not be willing to budge on price very much. I suspect you'll have a MUCH easier time if you can hold off for 5 months.

All of Anthony's points are valid, if you want a whole novel on how to negotiate, I'm happy to write that out later. Good luck! 

Thanks guys. I guess technically we're not in a rush to buy, other than I'm enamored with the idea of owning an ND! :D

Knowing that the S-plan is about as good as it gets, I might consider simply ordering a car and be content to wait on it.

@calteg - Any thoughts on my destination fee question? Is that pure fluff or a number that I can't get around/make go away?

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

Take two sets of keys.

Do NOT take two sets of keys.

If they ask for the keys to your current car, leave that dealer and go somewhere else.

Duke said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

Take two sets of keys.

Do NOT take two sets of keys.

If they ask for the keys to your current car, leave that dealer and go somewhere else.

 

How do you expect them to assess trade value?  I take two sets in case they try to do the low grade hijack to west you down.  I can get the other set later.  
 

Not all car dealers use this tactics play these silly games but many do.  The bigger the city the more likely the games. If it's a big investment firm owned dealer, it's almost guaranteed.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

Duke said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

Take two sets of keys.

Do NOT take two sets of keys.

If they ask for the keys to your current car, leave that dealer and go somewhere else.

How do you expect them to assess trade value?  I take two sets in case they try to do the low grade hijack to west you down.  I can get the other set later. 

Park it where they tell you to and leave it unlocked.  Tell them to lock it when they're done.

Dealers are negotiation pros, at best you're an overconfident amateur. Take the S plan :)

Keith Tanner said:

Dealers are negotiation pros, at best you're an overconfident amateur. Take the S plan :)

Or, in my case an underconfident amateur! :D

Also, don't be afraid of letting the dealer finance you. Another weird thing I see as "professional advice" here and many other places. 

I had already checked all the available interest rates from the favorites like PenFed. I had mentioned before I picked up the car I have an existing relationship with them (Mazda was refinanced there as well as having a credit card with them). He mentioned that and I said, "I don't care, find the best rate."

Their finance guy beat the what was the current lowest avilable rate from PenFed by 1%. 

dyintorace said:

Thanks guys. I guess technically we're not in a rush to buy, other than I'm enamored with the idea of owning an ND! :D

Knowing that the S-plan is about as good as it gets, I might consider simply ordering a car and be content to wait on it.

@calteg - Any thoughts on my destination fee question? Is that pure fluff or a number that I can't get around/make go away?

The 1165 is on the original sticker.  If you build a car on the Mazda site you will see it's part of the MSRP, they just do it that way to try and make it seem lower

Oh and the NUMBER 1 RULE! Don't be a dick. Many people seem to go in with a confrontational attitude and then wonder why they have a bad time.

Be polite, but firm. 

When I ordered the BRZ, they tried to add a $1k "market adjustment." I said nope, I won't be paying that, stood up and shook his hand to leave. Sales guy said wait a second, comes back in less than a minute and that markup was gone. And within 20 minutes we had the car ordered with an expected delivery date. 

When I picked up the car, they already had all my financial information, so it took maybe 25 minutes to finalize everything and drive away. 

The new BRZ was also the 7th new car I've purchased since 2010. 

dyintorace said:

Thanks guys. I guess technically we're not in a rush to buy, other than I'm enamored with the idea of owning an ND! :D

Knowing that the S-plan is about as good as it gets, I might consider simply ordering a car and be content to wait on it.

@calteg - Any thoughts on my destination fee question? Is that pure fluff or a number that I can't get around/make go away?

Destination fee is legit. It's a transport cost imposed by the manufacturer onto the dealer. The dealer then passes it on to you.

Doc fee, "under coating", fabric protection, market adjustment, etc are all negotiable and are hugely profitable.

When doing the calculations on a car, don't forget to value your own time. Is there value in spending an additional 6 hours at a dealership to save $500? Some people will happily pay a premium to get in/out of a dealership as quickly as possible...Carmax built their entire business around that idea.

I'll second what Keith said. A used car manager at a medium sized store might be desking 5-10 deals/day. On the low end he negotiates 5 deals a day. The buyer sitting across from them might negotiate a car deal every 2-3 years (or less frequently). Who has more practice and who is likely better at it?

Ran some analysis for funsies.

The average used ND in FL sticks around a dealer's lot for 28-31 days.

That's about double what it was at the height of the pandemic, but selling ~10 days faster than the average car in the same market. Likely due to the seasonal & geographic reasons I mentioned in my first post.

Just make sure you get that Tru Coat. 

Fantastic information guys - much appreciated!

Scotty Con Queso said:

Just make sure you get that Tru Coat. 

Great movie reference!

Although when spending $30k+ for a car, I would definitely get PPF in high wear areas and get the car and wheels ceramic coated. I had PPF done on the front bumper and headlights on the BRZ, many go ahead and do the entire the front clip and side view mirrors, which is also a great idea. And ceramic window tint, and have the windshield done at something like 80%. You won't be able to tell, but it helps a ton with heat rejection.

z31maniac said:

Although when spending $30k+ for a car, I would definitely get PPF in high wear areas and get the car and wheels ceramic coated. I had PPF done on the front bumper and headlights on the BRZ, many go ahead and do the entire the front clip and side view mirrors, which is also a great idea. And ceramic window tint, and have the windshield done at something like 80%. You won't be able to tell, but it helps a ton with heat rejection.

All great points. From reading in some Miata groups, it sounds like the Mazda paint is a bit thin, perhaps even more so for the Soul Red which is what we're leaning towards. I'll certainly get PPF! Will also plan on ceramic coating and window tint, including windshield!

Do you know which trim, color, and options you want? How many dealerships in reasonable driving distance have ones you're interested on the lot, vs inbound, vs have to order?

These factors will play into the details of how go about it, but the basic premise is to turn earning your business into a simple auction between competing dealerships rather than letting it devolve into a one-on-one negotiation.

I've always seen dealerships as basically a price adding middle-man for the 'real' protectants, and don't give you the same ability to pick a preferred product/installer as going direct to the source. They are counting on convenience to secure the upsell on those.

Driven5 said:

Do you know which trim, color, and options you want? How many dealerships in reasonable driving distance have ones you're interested on the lot, vs inbound, vs have to order?

These factors will play into the details of how go about it, but the basic premise is to turn earning your business into a simple auction between competing dealerships rather than letting it devolve into a one-on-one negotiation.

I've always seen dealerships as basically a price adding middle-man for the 'real' protectants, and don't give you the same ability to pick a preferred product/installer as going direct to the source. They are counting on convenience to secure the upsell on those.

I think we do know. So I've thought about doing the internet competition-style approach. And I have no plans on using the dealership for any post-sale additions like tint, etc.

In reply to dyintorace :

Here's the basic technique I use. It's ideally suited to cars in-stock, but can be adapted to inbound and custom orders, just to less potential advantage.

If financing, get the best rate you can find lined up ahead of time.

If trading in, get the best online value you can find from carmax and carvana type places ahead of time. It often helps to get repeated offers as they'll fluctuate day to day and week to week.

1) Before they open on the 3rd or 4th to last day of the month (quarter, half, and year even better): Email as many dealers that have an acceptably optioned (or better 'the' trim/options you want) car ON THE LOT (not just inbound or in transit) from far away as you're willing to travel for a deal. If your closest/preferred dealership also has one, you can even choose to not contact them until the end, and then just give them the last-chance opportunity to make the local sale. Tell the dealerships...

1. Exactly what car, trim, color, and options you're looking for.
2. That either you're looking to pay cash but are willing to entertain financing if it's financially advantageous, or that you have (and actually do it) secured your own financing but are willing to entertain theirs if it is financially advantageous.
3. That you're contacting multiple dealership on equivalent cars all with the same request.
4. That you're ready to take delivery by month end from the dealership that gives you the best out-the-door price.
5. That you need their itemized out-the-door offer by close of business today.

2) Before they open on the 2nd or 3rd to last day of the month: Reply to all responding dealerships. If you really want to ratchet up the pressure, also forward your email and note the disappointing lack of response indicating a lack of interest in making the sale, to the general sales manager at the non-responding dealerships. Tell them all, including the lowest priced:

1. What the best received itemized out-the-door price was.
2. That you are giving all participating dealership one, and only one, opportunity to give their absolute best itemized out-the-door offer below that by close of business today, to earn your business.

3) Morning on the last (or 2nd to) day of the month: If you held off on a local/preferred dealership, this is the time to stop by first thing, and see what they're willing to do. There are metrics tracked on dealerships' ability to secure the sales of their local customers, so there is *some* extra incentive for them there, in addition to if they're near a sales target for the month. If they can at least meet the offer, or within whatever the convenience is worth to you, buy from them. If they can't, call the winning dealership on your way out the door, to congratulate them and let them know when to expect your arrival. After the deal is completed and you've returned home, send an email to the competing dealerships thanking them for their efforts but you were able to complete the purchase from another dealership at a lower price. This will reduce the amount of follow-up emails you get from them.

Without a trade-in it's always possible that nobody will be running short on sales for the month, and the S-plan is the best anybody will offer. But even if that's the case, it just means the trade-in will be the main differentiator. When you work out a deal with a trade-in it all becomes a shell game of where to hide the money. Ultimately though, I don't care whether it's a higher trade-in or lower purchase price that gets me the lower out-the-door price. Even pre-covid I had dealerships half way across the state willing and able to appraise a car based on 4 clear 1/4 angle (FL, FR, RL, RR) pictures and a couple of reasonable interior shots, such that anything that would clearly affect value would be visible in the pics. This can all be incorporated into the initial contact email along with the best carmax/carvana offer you had received. Don't forget to bring any paperwork (title) you might need for the trade-in, and any additional signers required to release it.

dyintorace said:

Driven5 said:

Do you know which trim, color, and options you want? How many dealerships in reasonable driving distance have ones you're interested on the lot, vs inbound, vs have to order?

These factors will play into the details of how go about it, but the basic premise is to turn earning your business into a simple auction between competing dealerships rather than letting it devolve into a one-on-one negotiation.

I've always seen dealerships as basically a price adding middle-man for the 'real' protectants, and don't give you the same ability to pick a preferred product/installer as going direct to the source. They are counting on convenience to secure the upsell on those.

I think we do know. So I've thought about doing the internet competition-style approach. And I have no plans on using the dealership for any post-sale additions like tint, etc.

Good call. I chose a trusted BMW guy who owns a detail shop here in OKC and used his recommendation for the tint. They even had it tinted for me while he had the car the 4-5 days for the PPF/Ceramic Coating.....saving me another trip. 

That sounds like a lot of work, Driven5.

I used S-Plan.  Found the exact car I wanted on Mazda's website (Deep Crystal Blue with Napa White RF).    There was a destination fee on the invoice, which, as mentioned is legit.   I had a 5 or 10 minute phone call with the sales guy to ensure they had the car on the lot, they definitely took S-Plan, and my conditions (no non-Mazda applied logos/badges/stickers, no front license plate holes drilled into the bumper).    There was no other costs added.

We switched to text messaging where he took pictures of the car outside of his office to send to me. 

I told him what my credit union offered me on financing and said "I'll finance with you guys if you can beat it."  They beat it by .5% or something.  After that, it was a few minutes here or there while I did their credit app remotely and they gave me the exact out-the-door pricing. 

We arranged to pick it up on 11 AM on a Saturday, and I let them know I had a lunch appointment with my brother-in-law's family, so I had to be out of there by 11:30.  They assured me that was no problem, and it wasn't.  

The only sales tactic stuff to deal with was the extended warrenty nonsense.   No/no/no/no...   

Total time invested was well under an hour, not counting the drive there and back to get the car & have lunch with the BIL's family.

I don't feel ripped off, and I'm sure the dealer doesn't either.

I will say that I probably should have gotten PPF done, there are a few rock chips on the front of the hood now that it's got 20k on it.

That's the second time S-Plan as worked like that (when we bought a new Mazda5 for my wife).   When I bought my 2007 Rx-8 without S-Plan, it was the classic dealer games which I swore to never play again. 

In reply to Driven5 :

In this market dealers ignore emails like that.  Most of them ignored them before.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

I worked at a Ford dealership for a short period in the mid-90s, and the sales guys would laugh at the pre-internet version of this same plan.