I am very hesitant to post this as there is plenty of angst already in the various threads related to recent tragic events, but I have a genuine interest in hearing feedback on possible ways to improve the problems going forward.
There has been a lot of discussion regarding the issues of police brutality, profiling, and systemic racism, including the death of George Floyd. What I am not seeing is discussion about possible solutions to the issues.
Should all officers have body cameras that are active every minute that an officer is on duty (no option to turn it off)? If a complaint is filed or any injury occurs during an interaction, should the footage be reviewed by a board independent of the police structure and action takne as needed?
How do we reduce profiling? A more diverse police force? Aging out of the old guard? Better education and training of officers? Increased oversight by an outside board on complaints filed against officers to more quickly recognize potential patterns of abuse and quickly address it?
I am looking for thoughts on solutions because I have not seen much on this aspect of the issues so far. I have seen protestors with signs that read,“No Police – No Jails” on them. This doesn’t seem like a possible solution, but maybe I am missing some strong alternatives to the current system.
One point, from an interview I heard yesterday with a former New York City Police Captain, it could start with a different emphasis from the first day of training.
Become part of the community, and learn to interact with the people. Right now, it's an adversarial relationship.
Instead the training always starts with the use of force, and that gets emphasized throughout their career.
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
Lawmakers Begin Bipartisan Push to Cut Off Police Access to Military-Style Gear
This is a good place to start. Lets take the military attitude out of the police departments.
Lets try for protect and serve instead of extort and intimidate.
While I understand there are some bad people out there, and many police officers are killed in the line of duty, bad or poorly trained people are not acceptable police officers.
The police departments need to be not only willing , but eager to throw the bad ones under the bus.
Not as a mod, but as a person who likes the board, can we not start another thread like this? Please?
In the before times I'd nuke this in a second, for the time being we're allowing more discussion, but I'm not sure more threads is really the answer.
Have all cop cars be LS-swapped Miatas?
From a friend that is a retired policeman, the biggest issue is a lack of trust on both sides. Somewhere you have to start building the trust between the two groups, but you have to weed out the bad ones as much as possible. Truthfully, we can start the work now, but this is a many years effort as there needs to be changes in attitudes as well, and that takes time. I've been dating a black woman for about a year now, and it has been an eye opener. Racism I'm sure is better, but there's plenty still to go around. There are plenty of good policemen out there, so the question is, how to get the two sides to communicate, and how do win the trust and respect? Looting and destruction certainly isn't the answer.
Toyman01 (Generally Supportive Dude) said:
Lawmakers Begin Bipartisan Push to Cut Off Police Access to Military-Style Gear
This is a good place to start. Lets take the military attitude out of the police departments.
Lets try for protect and serve instead of extort and intimidate.
While I understand there are some bad people out there, and many police officers are killed in the line of duty, bad or poorly trained people are not acceptable police officers.
The police departments need to be not only willing , but eager to throw the bad ones under the bus.
This.
I think it would also be helpful if LEO's received more training. For example, in Oklahoma its around 660 hours to become a police officer just about anywhere in the state...................yet it takes 1500 hours of training to become a cosmetologist. Those are the real, actual numbers. CLEET is less than 600 to pass and it only takes a grade of 70% or better. The old saying "C's get degrees"
Tulsa PD, requires a Bachelor's degree and the Highway Patrol requires an associates or equivalent college hours.
Other than that, a GED, over 21, no felonies is all it takes to be eligible.
mazdeuce - Seth said:
Not as a mod, but as a person who likes the board, can we not start another thread like this? Please?
In the before times I'd nuke this in a second, for the time being we're allowing more discussion, but I'm not sure more threads is really the answer.
As Bill Clinton once said, I feel your pain.
Edit: the good news is, eventually it'll turn into a discussion about hot sauce, or tires or something. And that's not a bad thing.
That's what happens when families that love each other get together.
specifically on hands on use of force, the Gracie family (Gracie Jiu Jitsu, MMA fame) has a great course on how to safely and humanely control a person. It's unreal how little training most cops get in how to cuff and control people. I train Jiu Jitsu with two local cops who occasionally bring in new guys. they just don't have the knowledge or physical tools to control a person without escaliting the situation.
In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
Please delete - no issues at all if you do. I understand.
icaneat50eggs said:
specifically on hands on use of force, the Gracie family (Gracie Jiu Jitsu, MMA fame) has a great course on how to safely and humanely control a person. It's unreal how little training most cops get in how to cuff and control people. I train Jiu Jitsu with two local cops who occasionally bring in new guys. they just don't have the knowledge or physical tools to control a person without escaliting the situation.
I mentioned martial arts training before. Both mental and physical training. I also mentioned screening out those on the edge.
Well trained and well educated policemen cost more money. Not many in our current government believe in investment though.
Miata, Mazda5, XJ, and 42.
slefain said:
Miata, Mazda5, XJ, and 42.
If you mean Jag and not Jeep, I'm yours!
Being in EMS, there's a bunch of things I can highlight here from working with cops- I do want to point out, I've had bad experiences with my city's force.
I believe that some of the worst issues is partially based on area, but in mine cops are single-man units due to a lack of personnel and are almost always first on scene irregardless of the problem- meaning some overstressed officer is the frontline now for suicide prevention, drug abuse, and general emergency medicine. Several times one of our incorporated cities has had a single officer in it due to staffing, and with the protests now it's easy to pick out the men and women who were called in since most will still be in jeans with body armor tossed over- and that's not even getting to how much they work in a week! I can't be too angry at my officers because I can only *think* about how stressed and overworked they now are. Floating Doc and z31maniac touched on training, and it's a hard discussion since you 1) have a manpower issue and 2) fewer kids it seems, want to become cops due to bad associations (ACAB, anyone?) which just perpetuates 1. Right now the best idea I have towards 'fixing' this issue would be akin to apprenticeship; if a security guard passes mental checks for the stress and shows personal growth (i.e. gaining security clearance, classes on criminal justice/law, leaning languages, ect.) I see no reason to NOT turn it into another option towards a career in law enforcement and to gain an all-important 2nd uniform to watch one's back.
Icaneat50eggs:
specifically on hands on use of force, the Gracie family (Gracie Jiu Jitsu, MMA fame) has a great course on how to safely and humanely control a person. It's unreal how little training most cops get in how to cuff and control people. I train Jiu Jitsu with two local cops who occasionally bring in new guys. they just don't have the knowledge or physical tools to control a person without escaliting the situation.
snowdoggie:
I mentioned martial arts training before. Both mental and physical training. I also mentioned screening out those on the edge.
Well trained and well educated policemen cost more money. Not many in our current government believe in investment though.
Absolutely agreed on both. Departments who've tried screening out those with power-seeking style mindsets quickly run into manpower and hiring issues. What's worse is the issue of timing- it's far easier for an officer to go down in the basement and log 20 minutes shooting paper targets than sitting for a 4-hour discussion on race, simply because one can be done at the end of a shift to blow off steam and the other you WILL be called out while observing. At the risk of a flounder well, we have specific ideologies in our political system who think any government spending is bad, so there's that.
Toyman01:
This is a good place to start. Lets take the military attitude out of the police departments.
The last president was; that got reversed pretty hard.
The single biggest issue I see is that the bad cops are protected by the "good" cops. That has to end. Nobody should be above the law, and the police have no business policing themselves.
If every shooting of an unarmed person was prosecuted properly there would be no riots or protesting. If I kill somebody accidentally or otherwise, I'm not going home that night and neither should the people sworn to uphold the law.
Lots of talk about the problems...what about solutions?
It begins with those complaining to get themselves in positions that enable changes from the inside.
I think in some cases they are turning good cops into bad cops. Long hours. Low pay. Stress. Lack of resources to deal with stress. Lack of training. The fact that in a tight job market you have trouble recruiting for low pay, high stress jobs. You also have a culture that discourages asking for help in dealing with the stress.
Call it political if you want, but sometimes fixing problems costs money. It's like fixing potholes. Either pay to fix or watch your infrastructure fall apart. Treat your policemen like crap and they will treat your citizens like crap. You get what you get, and I don't really see things changing anytime soon. Yeah. You will see protests for maybe another month or so. You will see articles in the press about de-militarizing and re-training the police. Then the protests will die down, the press will find new shiny objects to pursue and we will keep plodding along until the next horrible incident and the whole thing blows up again. This isn't new. The game has been going on since the first Watts riots in 1965.
Moderators - please lock this thread. My apologies for starting it. I do not want it to further escalate tension on the message board.
For those that commented - thank you for the feedback.
I did not read any of the above so i hope I do not repeat ,
the Police need to change their training , and the code of silence if something wrong happens ,
The Police need to watch over each other and stop the officer that goes off , we all go off sometimes , but a cop needs to be better than the public ,
and the police need to have patience , when they have a suspect in a house , sit it out and wait , why are they in a hurry if there is not a hostage etc ?
I am so happy we have the Police , I just want to have better police and a better world ,
So much more , but enough for now , Stay safe and smile at a Cop , even with the mask on.....
