Making six figures without going to college

Xceler8x wrote: I'd suggest that anyone thinking about college vs a trade should read this book. The author exhausts the subject in regards to working a trade or going to college. He did both so knows of what he speaks. Shop Class As Soulcraft. The majority of people I know who make over 6 figures have degrees. A minority of people I know make 6 figures without them. Those people either own their own business or are in IT. If my job goes away I'm looking into a job that is physically necessary and where the technology changes slowly. Being physically necessary to me means I have to be onsite physically to do the work OR it cannot be outsourced. That includes trades like plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, etc. The slow technology part also includes those trades but would apply more to plumbers than to say HVAC or electricians. You might not get rich in these jobs but you will have a job. Also, in those trades there is a serious glut of guys who are about to retire. Young guys studying that stuff will be the root from which the next crop grows. I believe they will be compensated and well.

I just finished it a couple of weeks ago. I sure wish someone had written something like that when I was 20. I actually thought I was immune to being outsourced, since I didn't work in a factory. The technology in my industry changed, and I discovered I was wrong. Professionally, I dig the new job..but it still gnaws at me that I'm working pretty much twice as hard for half the money. And knowing that there were operators laid off at local stations when their jobs were 'outsourced' to Atlanta bothers me a bit. OTOH, the company has two hubs (one in the east, the other in the west). What happens if some corporate accountant decides they can combine the two? I could end up out of work again.

friedgreencorrado wrote:

Xceler8x wrote: What happens if some corporate accountant decides they can combine the two? I could end up out of work again.

Maybe that corporate accountant will get replaced by some software and you'll be lost in the system forever getting paid a paycheck and no one knows.

Enyar wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote:

Xceler8x wrote: What happens if some corporate accountant decides they can combine the two? I could end up out of work again.

Maybe that corporate accountant will get replaced by some software and you'll be lost in the system forever getting paid a paycheck and no one knows.

Having discovered that in some fields, hard work doesn't pay off like I was told it would..I could actually go for that. I think Poop's on the right track. If you're going to work hard, make sure you're working for yourself. I know no one's ever made a fortune working for somebody else, but it used to at least put people in the middle class. I'm not so sure it does anymore.

There's a guy down the street on disability. He's not making a mint, but he gets by like most of the neighbors do. And he spends his days babysitting his grandkids & his nights drinking beer and watching sports on TV-instead of busting his backside working two jobs for 70hrs a week at pathetic wages like everyone else on our street. Only reason I skate by on part-time work is because I dumped retirement in favor of owning the house outright. Otherwise, I'd be working that much as well. It's amazing how much less money you need with no rent/mortgage. I'm a lot less judgmental of people who get "paid for nothing" than I used to be. If you live in a world of increasingly diminishing return for your 'sweat equity', why bother?

Yeah, I know that comment won't be very popular around here.

My brother is in the boat of never having went to college, yet he is almost in the six figure category. He did start out in the service which helped, and then started his own HVAC company after he got out. Now he works for a company that produces HVAC control systems in a somewhat engineering capacity. He's in his late '30's and it was a struggle to get where he is.

If you want to make a lot of money, college or no, it takes work. It's not for the lazy. You have to be dedicated, and work hard, many times a number of years for wages lower than you want. If you own your on business, this can mean much less than you want for years while you build it up. You may be paying employees while you go hungry.

There's no real secret. You need a skill, organizational skills, some means of money management, professionalism helps, and I'm gonna put in here some idea of people skills. Last but not least, you need a desire to succeed. Most people that are successful have failed at least once. You can't give up when it gets tough.

Personally, I've had 3 distinct careers, each very different from the other. My degree was of the worthless variety, so I had learn to do what I wanted. Ironically, I could have done any of these without a degree, but I think it helped getting my foot in the door. I also had my own business once, but moved on when someone flashed a lot of money in my direction to do something different. Sometimes I wished I had stayed the course though.

I suppose there are people that end making a lot without working at it, but the ones I know, that is not the case at all. They usually have one thing in common, they are not lazy. That is unless you're an engineer! Sorry, inside joke!

I started going to school to teach history; actually went to teach history and HATED it. So I got a manual labor job in a paint shop; then learned everything I could about paint and the next door department which was design; then learned everything I could about carpentry from the guys who were building what I was painting. Then I learned everything I could from the installers; and the sales guys that were selling what we were making. Two years later when the production manager steps out I'm the only guy there who knows every job well and what it takes to not only DO it but to get it done (often more important). So I worked my way up to operations manager from a union labor job.

I think there are to many guys afraid to go on their lunch break and do something different; or once they clock out or whatever. For me it has always been "what don't I know and where am I going to learn it". I don't know everything about everything but I know a little bit about a lot of things and I was willi to find that stuff out on my time which any employer is going to value. They will pay you to learn what they want you to learn but if you want to know it you have to go learn it.

Xceler8x wrote: I'd suggest that anyone thinking about college vs a trade should read this book. The author exhausts the subject in regards to working a trade or going to college. He did both so knows of what he speaks. Shop Class As Soulcraft. The majority of people I know who make over 6 figures have degrees. A minority of people I know make 6 figures without them. Those people either own their own business or are in IT. If my job goes away I'm looking into a job that is physically necessary and where the technology changes slowly. Being physically necessary to me means I have to be onsite physically to do the work OR it cannot be outsourced. That includes trades like plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, etc. The slow technology part also includes those trades but would apply more to plumbers than to say HVAC or electricians. You might not get rich in these jobs but you will have a job. Also, in those trades there is a serious glut of guys who are about to retire. Young guys studying that stuff will be the root from which the next crop grows. I believe they will be compensated and well.

This book really rang home for me. I'm in my 50s and hit the 6 figure mark about 4 years ago. I have a 2 year art degree, but have been working designing and fabricating stuff for the biotech and renewable energy sectors for about 12 years.

I get by on the basis of being smart and street smart, relatively literate, and having "made stuff" for a long, long time. I've done all manner of work in the 20-odd years I worked before I joined "the professional world".

friedgreencorrado wrote:

Enyar wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote:

Xceler8x wrote: What happens if some corporate accountant decides they can combine the two? I could end up out of work again.

Maybe that corporate accountant will get replaced by some software and you'll be lost in the system forever getting paid a paycheck and no one knows.

Having discovered that in some fields, hard work *doesn't* pay off like I was told it would..I could actually go for that. I think Poop's on the right track. If you're going to work hard, make sure you're working for *yourself*. I know no one's ever made a fortune working for somebody else, but it used to at least put people in the middle class. I'm not so sure it does anymore. There's a guy down the street on disability. He's not making a mint, but he gets by like most of the neighbors do. And he spends his days babysitting his grandkids & his nights drinking beer and watching sports on TV-instead of busting his backside working two jobs for 70hrs a week at pathetic wages like everyone else on our street. Only reason I skate by on part-time work is because I dumped retirement in favor of owning the house outright. Otherwise, I'd be working that much as well. It's amazing how much less money you need with no rent/mortgage. I'm a *lot* less judgmental of people who get "paid for nothing" than I used to be. If you live in a world of increasingly diminishing return for your 'sweat equity', why bother? Yeah, I know *that* comment won't be very popular around here.

What you just said is the VERY reason I am unemployed and at home with my kid. I didn't get fired. Not even close. But my job WAS starting to take away some of the liberties that i'd earned myself in my 7 years of employ. At that point what they WERE offering was no longer worth my pittance of a salary and paying daycare. We had to tighten the ol' purse strings, but I don't regret it for a second.

motomoron wrote: This book really rang home for me. I'm in my 50s and hit the 6 figure mark about 4 years ago.

This is a significant part that is lost on the young folk leaving highschool to get their useless degrees (I teach highschool) - they believe they will grab their degree and step-into six figures. They do not understand "starting at the bottom and working your way up."

I have a couple friends who run their own business, and they just don't feel that they have the business fully "established" yet - they are in their early 30's. I remind them that most of the people who have their businesses "established" are well into their 50's. It doesn't come right away - it takes work, and time.

I, too, read that book. But I teach shop class, so I'm a bit biased (grin).

There is no replacement for hard work.

A guy without an education can still be successful, but an educated guy with no work ethic will never be. I'm a Millwright and machinist, and cracked 6 figures over 10 years ago. My son is in the second year of his apprenticeship, and made half that last year.

There's still money in the trades, and it's only going to get better. I would estimate that over 70% of our shop is either 50+, or very close. We're all going to retire in the next 10-15 years, and I don't see enough young guys coming in to fill the void.

Enyar wrote:

poopshovel wrote:

In my opinion, the key ingredients to success are smarts enough to recognize an opportunity when it comes your way and enough drive to capitalize on it.

This. Big time. And capitalizing on these opportunities often requires a little capital. So while your friends are partying at the bar every weekend and buying $20,000 cars, you'd be wise to stack any tiny bit of cash you can...and turn those little stacks into larger ones whenever the opportunity presents itself. Don't listen to the people who tell you it can't be done. I'm not rolling in the dough or anything, but I SACRIFICED the first 15 or so years of my working life; saving money. No vacations. No cars over $2k. Going out to dinner a maximum of twice a year or so, so that I can do those things now. It's worth it. My room-mates in Gainesville bagged on me constantly for eating beans and rice and never going out to the bars with them. Both accumulated over $100k in debt. 15 years later, one (a "wildlife ecology" major) works as a pastry chef. The other (nursing degree or something?) is a full-time stay at home mom...not that there's anything wrong with that. Wife's best friend spent 4 years and god knows how much in student loans at Massage Therapy school in Colorado. Personally, I think she just wanted to move to Colorado, and the school was an excuse. She works as a paper-pusher at a doctor's office for barely more than minimum wage during the day, and delivers pizzas for Dominoes at night. Mom and Dad pay her car payment on her 2000-something Nissan Murano (which she constantly complains about) and she lives in her parents old house rent-free. She is still drowning in debt...and going back to school for accounting, which may or may not be a good thing.

I'm gonna throw this out there. What if you were hit by a truck at year 14.999? Personally, I don't think you should have to sacrifice life completely to get ahead. Sure you don't need brand new cars and shots of Woodford Reserve every night...but enjoy life! Do what makes you happy. If that means eating rice and beans and living in the slums then so be it. Personally, I'll take my 3-5 trips a years, boats, good wine, ribeyes, and toys.

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking in the first line(???)

And something is getting lost in translation.

I'm not saying "I ate beans and rice, so you should too." I was replying to the post about capitalizing on opportunity. This requires capital.

If Mommy and Daddy are there to pay your way (not you. Just the proverbial you...and the proverbial Mommy and Daddy) good for the proverbial you. That didn't happen for me. And I'm glad it didn't.

15 years ago, I worked 6:00 - 2:00 at my day job making $7.50/hour. School from 2:30-5:30. $2.50-ish an hour plus tips and mileage from 6:00-12/2 AM.

My room-mates, who had no jobs, and blew their financial aid on beers and good food have failed at life. I stacked little wads of paper until the opportunity to use those little wads to make bigger wads appeared.

I am now in a position to do what those guys and gals did 15 years ago because of that. Comfortably. I could go out and plunk big wads of cash on all kinds of crazy toys and booze and hookers tomorrow. But I won't. Not until I can do it comfortably.

Dig this: I don't believe in God, but I love listening to certain preachers, sermons, whatever. I heard this middle eastern Christian dude on the radio one night, talking about pleasure and sacrifice. It spoke to me. He said, in not so many words:

"All pleasure requires sacrifice. REAL pleasure requires sacrifice on the front-side (my words.) FALSE pleasure requires sacrifice on the back-side (also my words.)"

i.e. - False pleasure is blowing your paycheck on booze and lottery tickets. It's fun...for a weekend. Suddenly it's Monday and you're broke. It feels great in the beginning, but hurts in the end. Real pleasure is creating your own little empire, which requires thrift, diligence, and patience. It hurts in the beginning, but feels berkeleying fantastic in the end. False pleasure is cheating on your wife, getting caught, causing her to hurt in unimaginable ways, having others look at you like a real piece of E36 M3 instead of a man. Felt great at the time though, right? Real pleasure is being able to look at your wife, your relationship, after 10 (for me, recently,) years and know that you've been a faithful, loving MAN for that long. Hurts when you're blue-balled with some some chick at the bar who's begging for it. Pays huge dividends when your conscience is clear and you know you've done the right thing...and not because jeebus told you to.

That was my point. Capitalize on opportunity. This, almost always, requires capital. Put it this way, to drive the point home in a car context: People often ask us (the race team) how the berkeley we score these killer deals on cars. My answer is often "Sometimes you just gotta be the guy with the truck and the trailer." If you ain't the dude with the cash, you ain't got the truck and the trailer.

Dig?

Enjoy your Woodford Reserve. Me and Evan are chillin quite comfortably tonight. $19.99 a jug, less 5% case price, less 5% CASH price = winning.

And no offense to anyone, but outside of Ben- Mr. Shovel is likely to be the one i'd most want to party with. He knows a cheap good time. I feel like we'd be homies if we weren't separated by a large map of space.

mndsm wrote: And no offense to anyone, but outside of Ben- Mr. Shovel is likely to be the one i'd most want to party with. He knows a cheap good time. I feel like we'd be homies if we weren't separated by a large map of space.

(borat voice) "High Fives." (borat voice.) I'm told I'm pretty goddamned fun to party with. C'mon down.

My pops and I work as Glaziers. We're not union, but on certain jobs we get the prevailing wage, which I've seen as high as $35 an hour. Problem is, that isn't a constant deal, and we have 3 to 4 jobs going at once, so it's a crapshoot of wether you get that or not. They had one big job that lasted 16 months, dad CLEARED 70k.

We get some okay benefits, like on jobs that aren't on a prevailing wage, we get ride time. Basically, I get paid from the time I leave home until I return, minus a 30 minute lunch.

They just paid to get a handful of us OSHA 10 certified, so there HAS to be a big scale job coming up.

poopshovel wrote:

mndsm wrote: And no offense to anyone, but outside of Ben- Mr. Shovel is likely to be the one i'd most want to party with. He knows a cheap good time. I feel like we'd be homies if we weren't separated by a large map of space.

(borat voice) "High Fives." (borat voice.) I'm told I'm pretty goddamned fun to party with. C'mon down.

Be at The Challenge. It's gonna be fun.

Afterthoughts:

I did no schooling at all. I started out in the fab shop, and after a few months of showing that I would show up on time, not break stuff, and can read a tape they put me on the road. My base wage is still pretty low but yearly raises are coming up, although those are not guaranteed.

An example of what we've done.

Glaziers work with glass, for the unfamiliar.

It's not for those afraid of heights, and we're almost always outside. In the winter you freeze, in the summer you sweat, but it's quite rewarding to see a building and say "yep, I built that!"

Swank Force One wrote:

poopshovel wrote:

mndsm wrote: And no offense to anyone, but outside of Ben- Mr. Shovel is likely to be the one i'd most want to party with. He knows a cheap good time. I feel like we'd be homies if we weren't separated by a large map of space.

(borat voice) "High Fives." (borat voice.) I'm told I'm pretty goddamned fun to party with. C'mon down.

Be at The Challenge. It's gonna be fun.

Not if we're not there it won't. Rookie.

poopshovel wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

poopshovel wrote:

mndsm wrote: And no offense to anyone, but outside of Ben- Mr. Shovel is likely to be the one i'd most want to party with. He knows a cheap good time. I feel like we'd be homies if we weren't separated by a large map of space.

(borat voice) "High Fives." (borat voice.) I'm told I'm pretty goddamned fun to party with. C'mon down.

Be at The Challenge. It's gonna be fun.

Not if we're not there it won't. Rookie.

Oh come on- Mx6 Mafia vs. the Hongs? Dude, that's cover material, even if it's the person that can do the stupidest E36 M3.

Also ON TOPIC- Trains. Railroad pays a E36 M3LOAD of money. I know dudes into the 6 fig territory that can't tie two shoes together. It's fairly gruelling work if you're the engineer and not the conductor (the driver of the train has it easy... I think that's the conductor) but goddamn is the cash nice.

If you are willing to go military, the Navy Nuclear program will get you a plant operator position at any nuclear power plant after a 6 year stint. Those jobs start at $70k before overtime, and there is a lot of overtime. That's where I was 8 years ago.

Don't like the military? Same place also hires Radiation Protection personnel, almost the same pay, and with a couple years of experience you can usually put in for the same operations job. You can get there through the janitorial jobs too. Biggest hurdle is the background checks, but once you are on site you are your only limiting factor.

Nuclear not for you? The power industry could still use all the hard working people they can get. Quick tech school training gets you hired as a lineman for your local company. Couple years later you can move up to a bigger (higher voltage) company or move into the dispatch center for $60k. Spend a couple of years there, get a NERC certification and come play with us big boys.

Can't climb a pole? The whole industry is transitioning from 50's electromechanical relaying to solid state digital equipment. That requires skilled electricians, relay technicians, and communications technicians, all of which make more than most. Move up to the big companies and your pay will go up too. And, any of those crafts can get you into a dispatch center too. And the average age of the people I work with is over 50, with 60%+ turnover expected in the next 5 years.

Pretty much look around at those people who are working when the weather is so bad you don't have power or can't get to work, and do some research.

I used to know a guy that was a mortgage broker. His income varied depending on how many deals he closed, but I remember him being livid if he had made less than $10K by the end of the month. His business suffered with the real estate implosion, he got divorced and we lost touch - so I don't know what he's making these days. But brokerage is one of those jobs that's all about marketing yourself and closing sales, and nobody cares whether you have a degree or not.

Background: never went to college or tech school, knew I'd blow the tuition partying instead of studying and had zero clue what I wanted to do.

Had I not left my soul-sucking job of earlier this year, I'd have been making $60k plus a multiple thousand dollar annual bonus. Being miserable was no longer worth that, so $10k less per year to not hate getting up in the morning was a change I was willing to make. Believe me, that was not an easy decision. I do occasionally pine for the extra income, but I do NOT regret my decision. In a few years I'll probably be halfway back to that, and that's okay. At least I'll live long enough (hopefully) to enjoy it more.

In the process of making this difficult decision, I looked around at a lot of other people. I see a lot of folks that visibly appear to have more than I do, and my income was/is good, and we are fairly frugal with money. Knowing what I do about incomes, I can only surmise that the main difference between the "obvious haves" and the "sort-of haves" (I'm the latter) is very likely because of debt. There's no way these people with similar incomes can have the houses and the toys they do (and multiple kids) and not be making payments on everything in sight. And I know that's the norm now, in talking with folks. Living paycheck to paycheck is a concept I've simply never accepted. I don't have a lot in reserve, but I've got enough that if one of us loses a job we won't be on the street in two months. There's great comfort in that.

My meandering point being, focusing on the income I think is the wrong thing to dwell on. What you do with any given income, ie how you manage it, is far more important than what you make.

nderwater wrote: I used to know a guy that was a mortgage broker. His income varied depending on how many deals he closed, but I remember him being *livid* if he had made less than $10K by the end of the month. His business suffered with the real estate implosion, he got divorced and we lost touch - so I don't know what he's making these days. But brokerage is one of those jobs that's all about marketing yourself and closing sales, and nobody cares whether you have a degree or not.

My younger cousin's husband is a mortgage broker and made astronomical money. He worked for BoA up till around 2007, then jumped ship to some other bank just before the implosion, she doesn't work. They had done all the 'right' stuff: 3 story $900,000 lakefront house, Volvo XC90 for her, 911 Porsche for him, big houseboat, spent a HUGE sum (I once heard $60k tossed about) adopting two Russian kids just before the door got slammed on that, sent those kids to an exclusive private school, you name it. They damn near lost everything when the mortgage banking house of cards came tumbling down, to this day I'm not real sure how they kept the house but I think it was from how he 'flipped' their two previous big buck houses (big equity) and cashing in some retirement stuff.

Me, I'd rather be able to sleep at night. The crash didn't really affect me, I managed to come through the divorce OK as well and I attribute that mostly to not giving a E36 M3 what other people think meaning I don't live beyond my means.

ddavidv wrote: My meandering point being, focusing on the income I think is the wrong thing to dwell on. What you do with any given income, ie how you manage it, is far more important than what you make.

There's no reason you can't do both. We have always been careful, and when I worked my way into a good income, it made all the difference.

I might regret posting this, but oh well, here it goes.

I do not like posting in these threads much as I don't think I have much advise to give. I do think that I recognize good advise, or things that worked for me. Reading through this thread, I saw a lot of good advise, some things that I thought were good and jumped out at me:

• the key ingredients to success are smarts enough to recognize an opportunity when it comes your way and enough drive to capitalize on it.

• where you live makes a big difference.

• Don't listen to the people who tell you it can't be done

• get a skill in something that no college is teaching anyway so the degree doesn't matter, and that very few people do so you are always in demand.

• People that make good money can always tell you the way they got there. People that don't, can always give you the excuse of why they can't get there.

One of the best:

• Stop focusing on WHAT you do. Start focusing on WHO you work for, and HOW you do you work.

• Whether you work for yourself or an employer, I still consider that I'm a one-man enterprise. My real job is to create value for whoever I work for

I honestly think, and I mean no disrespect by this, that if you are asking how to make x amount by putting in less effort (lets say not go to school), you are not going to get there. Do not worry about the money, just do good quality work and you will be happy with yourself. Basically, just do what you enjoy, the money will follow or if it does not at least you did what you liked. Do not worry about what the guys next door do. You need to be a driven person

I can tell you the story of two different people, both with a BSME. I graduated college and started off making $40k, it was low pay but they offered me something that in my eyes was worth the pay difference. They offered to sponsor me for a green card, so I took the job. My wife on the other hand, graduated and started off at $63k (actually out of all my class friends the lowest start was $57k). All of them had jobs with big companies, except me.

Fast fwd, 10 years. Some of my friends got an MBA, my wife has a Masters in ME ... And guess what? They are all barely scratching 100k, my wife just got there this year after fighting for it like crazy.

I, on the other hand, proved myself to the company that I started with, added value and been making over 100k for over 5 years now. I never gave a crap of how much money I would make. I just did my job, and always tried to do it right. The money came.

I am the exception, but you know what? The whole point is that I never set out to make X much money, I believe it was a result of my work and my attitude.

If I lose my job tomorrow, I am confident in two to three years I can get back up to that number. I will be doing what I enjoy.

If I worked 40 hours a week, for 52 weeks a year.. I would make $90,000 as a Stage Electrician. Granted, Atlantic City is the 3rd highest paying area behind NYC and Chicago, but still.

Would I recommend it? Not in a heartbeat. regardless of what you think stagehands do.. it is dirty, hard, and full of -very- long workdays that can be indoors, outdoors, or anywhere inbetween in any weather.

Everything is also rushed. you get a 20 truck show in at 6am, the lights need to go up at 8, and everything needs to be broken down and back in the trucks by 2am. I am amazed more people do not get killed or hurt

poopshovel wrote: For someone intending to own their own business, I'd absolutely say that ten times out of nine, $100k put toward startup is a better value than $100k in business school.

i would agree except for one expenditure.

accounting courses.

learn your good bookkeeping & spending habits early.