Keith Tanner said:I told my wife about this. She works for a ready mix and material supply company that also does roads and bridges. She just laughed and said "he's seriously trying to do it himself? Just call a pro!" Then she started going on about in-floor radiant and sealed systems and I had to change the subject.
Really that's the answer for anything concrete related, and I'm not saying that because I do concrete.
I called some concrete guys. They don't really have enough interest in a small job like this when they are swamped for new installs.
Called the Sawcut guy, his minimum is $525. He said he could cut my slab into little pieces before he'd hit his minimum hours. He doesn't do removal or trenching. He brings the saw, that's it.
Called a local larger plumbing company who does slab work. They charge $150/hr for two guys. They could do it next week. They could, however, do the rough in of plumbing work after. Though their rate is more expensive than my other more trusted plumber's rate at $100/hr (who I already told would have the work when I'm ready.)
At $150/hr, they'd hit the sawcut guy's minimum rate in a little under 4 hours, but they'd also being doing removal. They'd also know how much of the underslab cinders (yea, not sand or gravel under there, but volcanic cinders) to remove in order to hit slope requirements.
I asked their service manager if I could just have his guys remove the slab and go no further, and he sounds like he's fine with that. Doesn't get it, but he's cool with it.
I gotta say, I really like "my" plumber Brad. He's the most honest tradesmen I met. He just doesn't do labor intensive jobs like this. I feel bad about not using him.
WWGRMD?
Update: Just heard back from the sawcut guy. He'll do $250 for two hours with a gas saw that can do a 10" deep cut. Put a fan in the window and I think we'll be ok.
He'll make a mess I'm sure, but so would anyone else.
I may still need a jackhammer, but I probably won't end up with the little bits and pieces like I've been dealing with thus far. Hopefully I can just pull the blocks out.
I'd stick with one vendor who could get the job done in a half day.
Why make it more complicated?
Your loyalty to your plumber friend is nice, but he doesn't offer the services you need. You gave him a shot.
In reply to pheller :
A pro should still be cutting wet. You may have fumes, but not silica.
Tell him you know about silica, and expect him to work in accordance with OSHA.
You may not need a jackhammer. The Sawcutting crews I work with would rarely use one- if you cut it well, the pieces can be removed with a pry bar. (A big one). Just ask him to make a few extra cuts.
...on second thought, don't mention OSHA. It will sound threatening, and that guy will never show up.
Just ask him nicely if he will be cutting wet, and if he thinks he can keep the dust under control.
pheller said:Update: Just heard back from the sawcut guy. He'll do $250 for two hours with a gas saw that can do a 10" deep cut. Put a fan in the window and I think we'll be ok.
He'll make a mess I'm sure, but so would anyone else.
I may still need a jackhammer, but I probably won't end up with the little bits and pieces like I've been dealing with thus far. Hopefully I can just pull the blocks out.
That's 125 an hour, I'd be going with the plumbing crew for the extra 25 an hour and get your rough in done at the same time. Otherwise you still have to pull the blocks, coordinate your own plumber to be available around the same time etc.
Edit: you could hire a saw, but by the time you pick it up, pay the hire, return it and have them possibly try and charge you for a blade, have you actually saved much if anything?
I'm gonna try the sawcut guy and see where we end up. He'll use water for his cut. Not sure what else I should prep to cut down on the dust.
Things go well, I can just pry out the chunks and use my plumber.
Things go badly, I can just pry out the chunks, use my plumber, and call back out the sawcut guy to make things bigger.
Brad has given me nearly 3 hours of his time without charging me. Whether it was consulting on my old house, answering questions about my remodel, or telling me to where to cut/dig these trenches. I feel strongly about trying to use him on this project.
Understand the loyalty thing, and having a guy who's prepared to help you out on those little jobs for a good price that bigger firms would hit you with minimum charge is always handy
Your plumber would have come across this before though right? Would he have a "guy" he normally calls in for this kinda stuff? Given his honesty, I'm sure his referral would be a decent one.
daeman said:That's 125 an hour, I'd be going with the plumbing crew for the extra 25 an hour and get your rough in done at the same time. Otherwise you still have to pull the blocks, coordinate your own plumber to be available around the same time etc.
Edit: you could hire a saw, but by the time you pick it up, pay the hire, return it and have them possibly try and charge you for a blade, have you actually saved much if anything?
I'm not hiring the saw, I'm hiring a guy to make the cuts with a big saw for me.
You are right though, from an overall value standpoint, hiring the two-man crew for $150 is a better deal and if I haven't been telling my plumber that I'd use him for this job for the last 3 weeks and taking up all his time asking questions and coordinating, I would totally use the two-man crew from the bigger company.
daeman said:Understand the loyalty thing, and having a guy who's prepared to help you out on those little jobs for a good price that bigger firms would hit you with minimum charge is always handy
Your plumber would have come across this before though right? Would he have a "guy" he normally calls in for this kinda stuff? Given his honesty, I'm sure his referral would be a decent one.
He does and he did, but his referral is a general contractor specializing in bathroom remodels who is booked up currently.
You asked what GRM would do. I answered.
Sounds like you already know what you want to do. Perhaps the better question is "What would pheller do?"
Nothing wrong with that plan. It will slow your overall duration. I doubt the plumber's business will be hurt for an hour's worth of work.
You could talk to him. Just a thought. It would probably be a much better way to communicate than asking the opinion of a bunch of strangers on the internet.
You could also send your plumber a check for $100 as a gift with a nice bottle of bourdon, and a hand written card thanking him for his generosity and assistance.
SVreX, and others, thanks for the advice and much appreciated.
Trial by fire over here!
Good whiskey goes a long way.
I can be bribed with a good Islay lol
Well the Sawcut Guys showed up yesterday, used a hydraulic saw (which could only penetrate 5.5") but it was enough to allow me to remove the remaining concrete in less than an hour. Unfortunately, they did cost a bit ($500 vs $250) more than originally expected due to using the hydraulic saw, but I did think it was a bit dicey to use a gas saw indoors.
Despite tons of water used in the process they did make a huge mess, but I pulled the remaining concrete while it was wet in order to keep the dust down, which was successful.
I'm going to let the plumber figure out the plumbing, and I'll start focusing on how to refill the concrete. The sawcut guys had a bit of overcut in some of their lines, and I'm wondering if I shouldn't fill those cuts in, or break it out and replace the whole area. Plus I've got a large block in between my vents that has a bit of movement in it, so I may way to rebar/dowel that section.
In reply to pheller :
That's great!
Talked with a concrete guy about him fixing it. He said for a job as small as mine, with as much work as I've already done, I'd be good to try it myself.
He doesn't think I need doweling, but it would be cheap insurance, especially around the toilet area where it might someday get tile.
There was a disagreement between the inspector and the plumber. The plumber used 1-1/2" vent near the new toilet, but the inspector wanted to see 2" because the arm served the toilet and the shower drain (which is way the hell over there, near at max arm length for a 2" vent). This PO'ed the plumber. I paid for it.
Between the jackhammer rental, sawcut service, and plumbing, I'm $2200 in.
Next up is:
1) repair the concrete
2) Remove the existing shower insert to expose the outside wall and install a new 53"x16" window.
3) Reinsulated all exposed stud bays with "cut and cobble" method of insulation utilizing polysio.
4) Build out the 66" shower alcove with built-in shelving unit (yes after much family/friends/designer/contractor suggestion, we decided for built-ins).
5) Install greenboard or whatever to replace drywall I'll remove.
That escalated quickly...
Plumber estimated my job would've cost twice what I've got into it had I paid someone to do it. The depth of the slab where the toilet went would've likely caught off guard anyone else, and taken as much time as it took me. The inspector disagreement as well.
I was getting low estimates for this remodel at $8,000-$10,000 even if I didn't use a tile shower. We'll see if I can keep it under $6,000.
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