Metal Buildings and Monster Size Garage

Hi all, like many of us, my long term dream is to have a wide by huge shop.  Lately, I've been looking at vacant plots of land, with the goal of building a weekend retreat.  I found a couple of configurators online, this one being one of the best:

https://quicksteel.actbuildingsystems.com/

I've been looking at either 40x80 or 50x100 spaces, something like this, with a mezzanine on the 2nd floor that could be converted into an apartment:

But having the best website doesn't necessarily mean having the best product.  So, with the above photos as a guide, anyone have experience setting up a building of this type?  Any recommendations on:

• best vendors to work with?  Mueller buildings is one of the ones I know well, but open to other recommendations
• type of steel, I see some that look like HD/Lowes level greenhouses (like this), and some that look like commercial/industrial red oxide heavy duty buildings (like this).  How to order and spec it correctly?
• Thoughts on insulation?  Fiberglass bagged vs foam board style?
• Anyone with experience on contractors that could pour the pad and set it up in the mid atlantic area?  I know the small buildings claim to be able to go up in a weekend with 4-6 people, but I know better than trying to set up something this size.  I'd likely need scaffolding or a bucket truck.

This is a bit of stretch for me, financially, timing, all that, I'm planning to do it in stages.  First the land, and hopefully the building shell.  A few years down the line, finish it inside and add the apartment, add the lift, etc.  Any items that need to be done right off the bat?  I'm thinking it needs power and HVAC right off the bat, for running lights and getting the space conditioned. 

New territory for me, and would love to learn as much as I can before plunking down $$. 

I was in the same situation about a year ago when we were selling a BIG commercial building where I had my shop. I looked at either building here at our house or at a 2-acre commercially-zoned lot down the road. By the time I got the zoning approvals, lined up the building supplier and required sub-contractors, it was going to be an 8 month minimum project. I couldn't wait and ended up buying a building about 20 minutes from home. It had good and bad points. The good things were: I could move in on the day of closing, the taxes were low because it's a 50 year old building, it's zoned commercial. The drawbacks are: it's not laid-out the way I would have done it, I still have some changes that I wanted to make and it's 20 minutes from home. 
 

My brother has a LARGE commercial building on the same street 1-1/2 blocks away, so I can store stuff there if necessary. It's in a nice part of town so security isn't much of a concern. And it's 20 minutes from home and she has no clue what I buy to fill the new building. 
 

Time frame and taxes were what turned me away from new construction.

I bought my 24' x 40' in what I cal the carport style construction... like your fires link: First link ... and am very happy with it considering the price paid. At the time< it was the best value compared to other styles. There is a huge price jump when you go to wider than 24', but but up to about 30' was still less than other styles, just not by as much.

Your 2nd link, is what most call "red iron" construction (for the obvious reason!) for as large as you are looking at, they are much stronger buildings than the carport style, and prolly your best bet. There are other ways, but the red iron is likely what you want. They usually wrap the frame with a insulation blanket, and then put the siding on.

A friend had a 40 x 60 built when he started his business in Gloucester VA back in the 80's. When he added another 40 x 60, he bought the materials and we put it up, a few years ago he added a third, and since most of the new building is office space, he designed his own "hybrid" method. Had the roof put up as a red iron, and instead of mutting insulation/metal on the outside, he filled in the area in between uprights with ICF block and pored concrete. The I.C.E. Block Is the company he has been using since we built his house that way in the mid 90's

If you are interested in more info on that kinda stuff, his shop, 17 Machine is right on Hwy 17, and not too far from richmond.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/the-3-rs-rx-7s-red-iron-random-other-stuff/181382/page1/

Just built a 30x50 red iron in the backyard.  Pics and a video are in the link above. 

I'm right about $50-60k and haven't done electric yet. It's cheap to go tall, expensive to go wider/longer due mainly to concrete costs.  All this can vary greatly on your local pricing and foundation requirements.  I am about two miles or so from the Atlantic.  The erector commented that my building had almost twice the amount of girts and purlin than most of his jobs in central GA.

Mid atlantic you shouldn't have to deal with hurricanes as much but given my experience with how some other workshops/barns etc dealt with them and the relatively minimal cost difference pushed me toward red iron. 

Insulation is as described a batt insulation sheet with plastic on one end sandwiched between the panels and framing.  

It was absolutely done in a couple days by a skilled crew of 4-6 guys. Leading up to that the permitting, foundation, concrete, fabrication of the building etc etc took several months. It cost $9k for the installation and after pricing out a telehandler I figured it wasn't going to be worth it.  I would have needed it for at least a month (about $2500) and hoped I could wrangle help on the nights / weekends.  Plus the fact I've never done one before and really have no idea what I am doing. 

lotusseven7 (Forum Supporter) said:

I was in the same situation about a year ago when we were selling a BIG commercial building where I had my shop. I looked at either building here at our house or at a 2-acre commercially-zoned lot down the road. By the time I got the zoning approvals, lined up the building supplier and required sub-contractors, it was going to be an 8 month minimum project. I couldn't wait and ended up buying a building about 20 minutes from home. It had good and bad points. The good things were: I could move in on the day of closing, the taxes were low because it's a 50 year old building, it's zoned commercial. The drawbacks are: it's not laid-out the way I would have done it, I still have some changes that I wanted to make and it's 20 minutes from home. 
 

My brother has a LARGE commercial building on the same street 1-1/2 blocks away, so I can store stuff there if necessary. It's in a nice part of town so security isn't much of a concern. And it's 20 minutes from home and she has no clue what I buy to fill the new building. 
 

Time frame and taxes were what turned me away from new construction.

Great minds think alike.  I have also been looking at commercial properties, but around here at least they seem to be holding high, even a year into the pandemic.  Not selling  at those inflated values, but I think the owners are hesitant to bend on price for fear of knocking over the house of cards.  I've seen warehouse/commercial space selling at $60-70/sqft on 2-3 acres.

Good points on the taxes and zoning.  The current plots of land I am looking at are currently zoned Agricultural, and a metal building is one of the pre-approved uses/additions.  Particularly since it initially won't have water/sewer, just power, the tax increase on the site will be minimal. 

In reply to 03Panther :

Thanks!  Maybe I'll ride the motorcycle out that way after work in the next couple weeks to take a look...I ride down to Yorktown a couple times a year anyway just for fun.   Any feedback you can share from helping your friend put up his 40x60?

Greg Voth said:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/the-3-rs-rx-7s-red-iron-random-other-stuff/181382/page1/

Just built a 30x50 red iron in the backyard.  Pics and a video are in the link above. 

I'm right about $50-60k and haven't done electric yet. It's cheap to go tall, expensive to go wider/longer due mainly to concrete costs.  All this can vary greatly on your local pricing and foundation requirements.  I am about two miles or so from the Atlantic.  The erector commented that my building had almost twice the amount of girts and purlin than most of his jobs in central GA.

Thanks for the input.  Similar thoughts here.  I could probably figure out how to put it together, but time is at a premium for work.  $10K to have someone else put it up, and just be able to move in and start using it, sounds pretty good vs. a month or two of nights and weekends.

I've seen as low as $50-60K estimates for the building itself, concrete, and labor.  But that's just the bare shell.  A friend in the area said his was $150-200K by the time it was finished (power, water, sewer, lighting, 4 lifts, interior walls, HVAC, everything).    So quite a range to work with, and one I'm hoping to break down into $10-30K chunks over a couple years.

I'm subscribing for a good cry.  Commercial property is disproportionately expensive here - both to purchase and in taxes- and to find residential land in an area that doesn't care about zoning/what you build I have to go about 30 miles.  I did look at one garage to purchase, but the 850k price tag for a wasted 48 x 40 shop was only eclipsed by the fact that the taxes per month would have been more than my current mortgage.

I'm kinda stuck with my 12x24.

Dad had two barns done on his farm.  One was a 40x40 and it was a Morton steel building.  It was erected in 1978 and it is still a wicked strong piece.  The second one he had done as a pole barn and it was an Armstrong.  Both great, but the Armstrong really isn't saying much.  Most of what makes it good is the wood framing.  Armstrong basically supplies the steel part of the kit.

In the farm territory around here, the big names you see are Morton, Armstrong, and Pioneer.  That doesn't mean they're the best, it just means that they have a strong preference in this neck of the woods.

Morton is generally considered the "best" in that their manufacturing, fabricating, and the quality of materials they use are often superior, but you'll pay accordingly.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks for the supplier options.  The plots I'm looking at are also about 20-30 miles/minutes outside of town.  This is meant to be more of a combo "awesome shop" and "weekend retreat", not a commercial/business space.  I missed out on a great piece of land with a large pond and some other nice to have pieces. 

If it helps you dream big (or have a good cry :P), this is one of the other pieces of land I've been looking at:

Flynlow (FS) said:

If it helps you dream big (or have a good cry :P), this is one of the other pieces of land I've been looking at:

Jerk 

I do have access to family land where I could build a killer shop.... but it's 100 miles away.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Flynlow (FS) said:

If it helps you dream big (or have a good cry :P), this is one of the other pieces of land I've been looking at:

Jerk 

I do have access to family land where I could build a killer shop.... but it's 100 miles away.

As a single man, that would be worth a move!

 

In reply to 03Panther :

Thanks!  Maybe I'll ride the motorcycle out that way after work in the next couple weeks to take a look...I ride down to Yorktown a couple times a year anyway just for fun.   Any feedback you can share from helping your friend put up his 40x60?

I had just been laid off at the shipyard, and was not looking for work. This was back in '94. He offered me $50 a day to come over and play. 

Asked me if I had any experience with 'em, and I just looked at him funny and said "no, but I had an Erector Set as a kid!"

Truly are the same thing, on a different scale. Course I was younger and tougher back then. His "crane"  to lift up the pieces while we bolted them, was a ex army off road fork lift, with lots of "personality " and a 20' long boom pole on the forks! We were to wide open in those days to care how incredibly dangerous that was!

But Dave and I always did work well together, and if ya take your time, and good situational awareness; the proof it was "safe enough" is we're still kickin' if ya do ride by,tell 'em "Pete" says howdy! 

So, yeah, starting to look at this more seriously, sellers accepted my offer last week.  Starting survey, financing, septic, etc. now, targeting closing in July.  Visited it again, it's greened up for the summer:

Will likely wait until the current building material crisis eases off a bit, but I am planning to rent a bobcat and move some earth around and shore up the driveway.  The drop from the road to the driveway/dirt road would tear the lip off the BMW.   And right behind where I'm standing is some major ruts to fill in and grade smooth:

Nice move!  Can you share the location?

In reply to Flynlow (FS) :

I love your idea!  Wouldn't we all like to live in a Garage Mahal?!! 

Having said that, also please give some consideration to what a residence is, and some of the requirements typical to them... especially regarding safety. There are a lot of issues with putting a residence and sleeping area over a garage... 2 means of egress, fire separation, fumes, etc. 

I don't want to be a wet blanket in any way. Just give it some thought (and get the input of design professionals). 
 

Duke said:

Nice move!  Can you share the location?

About 20 min north of Richmond.  Land is 2 lots, actively growing loblolly pine and managed by Virginia Department of Forestry.  I'm going to try to keep that going while I put the shop somewhere unobtrustive (and cut some trails for dirtbikes).  Overhead map, the red dots are where my two photos were taken from above:

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Flynlow (FS) :

I love your idea!  Wouldn't we all like to live in a Garage Mahal?!! 

Having said that, also please give some consideration to what a residence is, and some of the requirements typical to them... especially regarding safety. There are a lot of issues with putting a residence and sleeping area over a garage... 2 means of egress, fire separation, fumes, etc. 

I don't want to be a wet blanket in any way. Just give it some thought (and get the input of design professionals).

Appreciate it!  Especially knowing that comes from your wealth of experience in the construction industry.  I will definitely get a professional to weigh in, and this will not be my full-time residence.  More a cot and a beer fridge to make overnight stays tolerable (vs. camping in the rain). 

My rough construction timeline is:

1.) ASAP - small shed (home depot or lowes kit style) to house the mower and bush hog for trails and driveway maintenance

2.) Next 1-3 years - big pole barn in my first post

3.) Either before or 1-3 years after #2, based on cost: Would love to put a fire watch tower on the 3rd clearing towards the middle of the property.  Something like this, to be used as a weekend cabin/guest house eventually:

https://www.fs.fed.us/eng/facilities/documents/1938_USDA-FS_StdLookoutPlans.pdf

Probably no more than 30' tall to the floor of the enclosed space.

And just to be silly, here's a 5 min sketch of intended use:

That looks fantastic!  Best of luck!

Great looking piece of property! I went to H. S. in Chesterfield, back when chesterfield was still country. I didn't really want to move back into town (Hampton - N. N. ) around all them people, but that's where the Apprenticeship was.  Made it back to country living, a few miles off 64, 1/2 hr S. Of RIC in '04 or so, where I lived in a warehouse unit for several years.  Plan at the time was to build a "Barn-domindium" in TN; but ended up in AL instead!

I assume you are living/working in Richmond proper now?

Canoe thread revival, but I missed this thread the first time through so I'm happy. Before today, I did not know that I needed a fire watch tower in my life. My wife and I have been idly and sometimes not so idly looking at large country properties for sale. I wouldn't picture a workshop for now, but a fire watch tower weekend cabin sounds perfect.

How's your land purchase going? By now I assume it washed out or you closed...

I got a quote for one of these several months back. 

6000 sqft. Shop on the ground floor. Living on the 2nd. It was about $49k. Figure close to $100k by the time you pour the slab and finish the living area. 

dculberson said:

Canoe thread revival, but I missed this thread the first time through so I'm happy. Before today, I did not know that I needed a fire watch tower in my life. My wife and I have been idly and sometimes not so idly looking at large country properties for sale. I wouldn't picture a workshop for now, but a fire watch tower weekend cabin sounds perfect.

How's your land purchase going? By now I assume it washed out or you closed...

Thanks for the revival and reminder.  I don't have any sort of alerts active, so I sometimes miss new posts.  And excellent timing, because I just closed last Wednesday.  Very frustrating process, that I am happy to share details over a beer to anyone interested, but the quick version is: when buying vacant land, plan on 6 months from offer acceptance to close.  If you get it done in 3 months, you're a rockstar.  We took 5 months, and the closing attorney and financing company both said that was faster than they expected.  Also, I spent an insane amount of money ($10,000+) to have a full survey done and new pins driven, but the upside is it hadn't been properly surveyed in 100 years, and the land is ~20acres larger than expected.  It also puts me a step ahead when I eventually pull permits for construction.

Current plan for this fall is just to gravel the access from the main road to ~100ft in so I don't always have to take something with ground clearance, and put up a basic gate (lender requirement), something like this:

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/utility-tube-gate-50-in-h-x-12-ft-l

Beyond that, I need to build my cash reserves back up a bit.  Hopefully next year I can build the shop space and/or fire tower.  I am actually down in Texas this week for work, so I went to one of Mueller's stores to talk to someone in person, and was somewhat disappointed.  The sales guy kept saying, "Yeah, we don't work up in New England, too many hurdles in New York  and all that."  I chose not to bring up that Richmond, VA not only isn't located in New England, but it is strongly considered "the South" for all kinds of historical reasons, and just thanked him and went on my way.  On the bright side, I have a hard data point (seen on their website, confirmed in person) that a 40x60x16 is $27,000, plus concrete, insulation, and doors.  So that will be helpful for referencing other quotes.  I plan to reach out to the companies Curtis mentioned above, and try a couple of the local contractors.  Several of whom told me steel prices *may* come back down next year, so waiting 6 months could be a good thing. 

I hiked the property the day before closing, and I swear the trees are 2' taller than when I first visited at the beginning of the year, not sure if the cooler weather and rain the last 2 months sparked a growth spurt or if I'm losing my mind.  Picture from the same spot because it's the easiest place to climb and get 20' of elevation:

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

I got a quote for one of these several months back. 

6000 sqft. Shop on the ground floor. Living on the 2nd. It was about $49k. Figure close to $100k by the time you pour the slab and finish the living area. 

Very cool!  Do you have a link to plans that you can share?  Is the one pictured also 6000 sqft?  I only ask because the buildings in my first post were 4000-5000, and appear to be a bit larger based on the door size and forklift for scale.  Possibly yours is much deeper.  I like all the additional windows higher up.  Bringing in some natural light was definitely something I struggle with on a metal building.  I don't want any on the ground floor for security, but it would be nice to be able to see in the daytime without electricity if needed.

Also, the regrowth in these photos makes me happy.  The land was clear cut in 2016 or 2017:

And here it is just 4-5 years later:

Flynlow (FS) said:

Also, the regrowth in these photos makes me happy.  The land was clear cut in 2016 or 2017:

And here it is just 4-5 years later:

Was it replanted or is that just natural reforestation?