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aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
5/6/17 11:32 a.m.
Ricky Spanish said: ...In addition, the new fiduciary rules require them to act in the best interests of their clients...

That rule has been delayed, and it seems like it will never be enacted, you can imagine why the financial industry would not want it (it's a lot easier to make money when you do not have to act in the best interests of your clients).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiehopkins/2017/02/03/trump-signs-executive-order-shelving-fiduciary-standard-for-financial-advisors/#5d67b4295863

I did not read all the references below, but at least one refers to a "good financial adviser". What does that mean? Is that a fiduciary? I don't know, but it sounds a bit like "you can drive faster if you drive a fast car" (yeah, no E36 M3 captain obvious). The others I looked at did not seem to make that distinction either.

I feel confident that a good adviser can help with overall retirement savings (lots of little retirement rules / considerations), but I am pretty suspicious of an "adviser" for general investment. Big hint, if you "adviser" is getting a cut of you transactions he is not motivated to work in you best interest. If you pay them a flat fee, you chances are better.

I am not sure about the managed funds doing better, but the fees on some of those are pretty hard to take, and I am curious if the fees are considered in the performance estimate (it wouldn't shock me if they weren't).

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2195138

https://www.kitces.com/blog/hierarachy-of-financial-advisor-value/

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/102616/how-much-can-advisor-help-your-returns-how-about-3-worth.asp

http://corporate.morningstar.com/ib/documents/PublishedResearch/AlphaBetaandNowGamma.pdf

http://corporate.morningstar.com/ib/documents/PublishedResearch/AlphaBetaandNowGamma.pdf

https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadepfau/2015/07/21/the-value-of-financial-advice/2/#cbb04b75245f

TRoglodyte
TRoglodyte UltraDork
5/6/17 11:51 a.m.

I started a thread earlier about asking my accountant about a fiduciary financial advisor. They suggested Ameriprise Financial whom they are affiliated with. I trust my accountant but I am skeptical about Financial advisors in general. I don't want a huckster messing around in my finances.

Basil Exposition
Basil Exposition SuperDork
5/6/17 12:37 p.m.
TRoglodyte wrote: I started a thread earlier about asking my accountant about a fiduciary financial advisor. They suggested Ameriprise Financial whom they are affiliated with. I trust my accountant but I am skeptical about Financial advisors in general. I don't want a huckster messing around in my finances.

I don't know about Ameriprise, but the key is to pick one that is a fiduciary and doesn't get any commissions from what they tell you to do. IOW, one who will charge you an hourly or flat fee. Finding a good one will be the challenge.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
5/6/17 8:18 p.m.
iadr wrote: ...What you pro Vanguard folks are missing is that we are in way, way, unprecedented times for investing. Mother of all bubbles.....

That always seems to come up. Kind of like how a guy I know kept talking about an All Time High in the market, like it is some sort of concern (every day should on average be an all time high).

What exactly in the chart below indicates a huge bubble?

Can someone find a chart that goes to at least 2016?

Basil Exposition
Basil Exposition SuperDork
5/6/17 8:36 p.m.

I've been seeing books on the shelf that predict economic chaos for the past 40 years or so. I somehow get a weekly email from a particular company that has been predicting a crash every week for the past several years. Coincidentally, that company sells gold.

The first "crash" I experienced was 1987. The Dow fell over 500 points in a day. Looks like barely a blip, now. Since then, we've had the dot com bubble and the housing bubble and my investments are doing fine, thanks. I'm sure iadr is right that there will be another crash-- eventually. The trick is to not panic and think long-term. That's why index funds work well. Short-term trading just tends to introduce volatility, risk, and fees. Pigs get fed and hogs get slaughtered.

Back on topic, several major investment houses are now setting up their own low-cost index funds to compete with Vanguard. Maybe MS is one of them and that's why they are dropping the Vanguard funds?

RX Reven'
RX Reven' Dork
5/8/17 6:32 p.m.

First, I’m sensing a fair amount of competitiveness (my investing karate is better than your investing karate – drops mic)…my hope is that we work collaboratively to improve everyone’s outcome.

Hi Ricky Spanish

Admittedly, I didn’t read the links you posted. No offense, it’s just that I studied investing options intensely long ago, developed a plan based on what I learned, and have stuck to my plan ever since. Pilots are taught to “plan your flight – fly your plan” and that’s exactly what I’ve done. Just so you know, I’m 52, I’ve been flying my plan since my divorce at 29, and despite setting an ambitious financial goal for myself, I’m significantly ahead of plan.

I did notice that two of your article titles mentioned “good financial advisors”. Well, that pretty much kills it right there…you don’t get to cherry pick after the fact; come on.

BTW, have you ever heard commercials where they say something like “90% of our funds have outperformed their respective Lipper averages over the last XYZ years” Yah, they systematically drop their poorly performing funds and then only include currently available funds in the calculations…that’s called selection bias and you can produce any statistic you want if you’re willing to stoop to that level.

You Wrote: MS wants to have funds which they can manage, and grow, so they can, you know, make more money since they're paid off the value of the account.

True but MS isn’t limited to making money by growing their client’s portfolios; they can just attract new money. It’s the same thing with realtors…the more they sell their client’s houses for the more money they’ll make per transaction but they’ll ultimately make a lot more money by convincing their clients to list their homes cheap so they can sell it quickly and move on to the next listing.

You Wrote: Vanguard funds are rarely, if ever, in the best interests of the client - they are almost exclusively used by people who want a "cheap" fund but don't realize that working with a planner will yield a 2-3% higher return, net of any fees.

I think your definition of “cheap” conflates low cost with low quality. Consider the difference between a Seiko with a simple quartz movement and a Rolex with a fine Swiss movement. The Seiko costs less but it surpasses the Rolex in terms of accuracy, durability, and features. I see this as an excellent analogy to index funds and actively managed funds….one having no moving parts while the other requires a complex mechanism.

Anyway, my analysis indicates that the large majority of actively managed funds underperform relative to index funds.

The Ph.D. statistician in the “Drunkards Walk” book I recommended tracked the performance of the top 10% of funds managers over time and found that they, as a group, fell to below average performance over time. This strongly suggests that they don’t possess an innate talent, but rather just happened to pick a strategy that worked well for a period of time due to market conditions (Bear Vs Bull market, etc.).

I do believe that a slim few individuals are so talented that they can not only beat the indexes but beat them so hard that they can cover their expenses, salaries, and the additional tax burden they place on their clients due to increased trading but I don’t believe there is a way to identify them soon enough to be of use…basically, by the time you know who they are, they’re retiring.

STM317
STM317 Dork
5/9/17 5:17 a.m.

In reply to iadr:

You can stand on the sidelines all you want, proclaiming the next crash is right on the horizon. But while you're doing that, the wealthy are busy sucking up more and more of the money on the planet. I've found in my life that it's best to emulate those whom you aspire to be like. So, if you want to run a marathon, you must train like a distance runner. If you want to be a better driver, you should get instruction from the best drivers you can. And if you want to be wealthy, you should invest wisely. Rich people don't get rich being afraid to invest. Poor people stay poor that way though.

dculberson
dculberson PowerDork
5/9/17 9:39 a.m.

There is always a crash coming, and people always claim investing has changed and we're in "unprecedented times." And yet somehow small investors that buy and hold over decades still make money and still have solid retirements. The people that claim otherwise turn out to be naysayers with no alternative suggestions. What do you have your investment dollars in? How do you put it in reliably, repeatably, and regularly? I put 100% of my investment dollars in VTSAX right now. Total stock market index, with a .05% expense ratio. It has returned handsomely for years through many doom and gloom predictions and has kept going after many "THIS is the top, really, this time is different" claims.

There's always a crash on the way. But there's also always a rally on the way.

If you have problems with aircooled's chart, maybe look at an S&P "Total Return" index. They only introduced their stock index in 1923 so that'll have to do. That includes many, many "mother of all bad days" and yet still returns 10.34% annually on average. (If you run your own calculations, be sure to use only "total return" calculators as they include dividend reinvestment which can be 2%+ of your growth.)

There's nothing inherently inflated about this market. It's right on a pretty natural curve for US market growth. Is it near an all time high? Yes, but the majority of the time in history the market is near an all time high. That's how a growing economy and growing country works.

Sitting on the sidelines is the worst decision you can make for your wealth.

STM317
STM317 Dork
5/10/17 5:37 a.m.

I don't think you're saying anything new here. We know that there will be drops, and some could be very large. We also know that there will be gains, and some could be very large. The overall trend of increasing over time still holds, and therefore, as long as you don't panic and pull everything when it drops, you should be in position to gain from the ensuing rebound. Now the timing of the drops and climbs comes into play, as nobody wants the drop to occur right before they retire but there's no sense in worrying about things outside of your control, and with proper diversification, your investments should be pretty low risk (and therefore sheltered from massive losses) right before you retire anyway.

I'd ask you, what's the alternative? Stacking as much cash as you can? Ignoring the fact that you'd lose value to inflation, IF the market crumbles completely, and all investors lose everything, will your cash be worth anything? Buying real estate? Again, if the market crumbles, who will have the money to buy/rent? Building a doomsday bunker to survive the fallout? Enjoy your life of spam and twinkies, while you revel in how right you were with Wilson the volleyball. I know it can seem like a silly game with made up numbers, but it's worth playing that silly game in my opinion, mostly because the alternative options kind of suck by comparison.

As to your question about the increase in the mid 90s, I think it's globalization. The Cold War was finished, tech was becoming mainstream as it matured and costs dropped, automation was improving efficiency, US companies had tons of new markets to expand into for increased sales, as well as reduced labor costs.

RX Reven'
RX Reven' Dork
5/11/17 1:13 p.m.
iadr wrote: Maybe I am just envious, b/c I am missing out on all this wealth as one of my most tightly held personal values is that it's immoral to put money in the stock market. It distorts business. They stop trying to serve the customer, and instead look over their shoulder at making money for strangers.

Hi iadr,

Not holding stocks because you think publically traded companies are evil produces the same result as not voting because you don’t like any of the candidates…trillions of dollars will be invested in companies with or without you and somebody is going to be elected to public office with or without you.

It’s all relative so your nonparticipation won’t put the brakes on anything…all you’re doing is silencing your voice.

Socially responsible investing is a real thing and there are many options available to you.

Here’s a decent article that was published in Kiplinger about a year ago to get you started.

Kiplinger Article

Go for a Win-Win man…utilize your money to reward good corporate behavior and profit at the same time.

Good luck

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