In reply to infinitenexus :
If ferd had given it a better name, it would have been accepted more from the start. People were mot happy at the poor mpg, even running empty. What they didn't focus on was how flat the tq. curve is, and how low it comes on. Has as much (or more) power than the V8 does, but gets V8 mpg, as well. Big surprise!
alfadriver said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
My rule is: With a 5er, as long as the truck can handle the weight, you can go darn near as long as you want. With a TT, as long as the truck can handle the length, then you can go as heavy as you want (within reason). With a 5er, you'll run out of towing weight capacity before you run out of safe length. With a TT, you'll usually run out of safe length before you reach the max towing weight, especially if you're talking about a modern lightweight RV.
Can you explain that with a little more detail? Or how do you calculate the max length of a trailer you can pull? I know that trailers are measured tongue to bumper- but does the axle location factor into that, too? That would be good to know that.
Well, there really isn't any calculating it. It's kind of like trying to predict what MPG you'll get. Too many factors.
There have been changes to how RVs are measured, and the length of the trailer is always nominal... meaning it might be a 26' trailer, but it may actually measure 25'-4" or 26'-8". I would have to look up the changes to how they're measured. Trailer measurements are kind of like SAE and net HP, or crank hp and wheel hp. They changed over the years and I used to know all that junk but it never really amounted to a hill of beans in real life. At some point in history, TTs could be measured by the size of the box or the overall length. 5ers could be measured from the pin or from the size of the box. Further confusion can happen because sometimes the pin is in front of the box or under the box, like these:
Pin in front
Pin under the box like this
The former (pin front) design has become more common in the last 20 years because of the dominance of short-bed trucks. Back in the day when almost every truck had an 8' bed that was mostly identical across all brands, the pin was usually under the box. There for a decade or so, a sliding 5er hitch was the hot ticket so that you could match your new short bed truck to your old pin-under 5er.
On the length/weight part, it was never a problem 40 years ago. Manufacturers didn't have access to light weight materials like today, so trailers were heavy. I had a Scotty 18' trailer from the 60s that weighed almost 4000 lbs empty. If you were going with a longer trailer, you would run out of weight capacity before you got too long to be dangerous. These days RV makers are using foams, composites, and computer engineering to keep things super light. A 7500-lb towable in 1980 was probably 24'. Today it might be 32'.
In the case of a TT and side wind forces, you have the additional leverage based on the distance from the axle to the hitch ball, so yes, the amount of rear overhang has a lot to do with it. You basically have to compare the length of the trailer to the distance between the trailer axle and ball... and compare that to the wheelbase and overhang of the tow vehicle. A long trailer not only has more real estate to catch wind and therefore greater force, but it's also a longer lever giving it more mechanical advantage. If the tow vehicle is proportionally just as much longer wheelbase, the lever (tow vehicle) that the lever (trailer) is trying to force somewhat cancels out the mechanical advantage.
Then you have to factor in the 700 other things; tire sidewall height and stiffness, bushing stiffness, spring stiffness, suspension design, tongue weight, trailer tire sidewall and spring stiffness, trailer height and aero. Lots of things go into it.
If you've ever towed a larger TT, you may have noticed this phenomenon. Let's say you're in the right lane doing 65. An 18 wheeler is overtaking you in the left lane at 67. When the wind blasting off the side of the big truck's nose hits the side of the trailer, the trailer pushes the hitch to the right, causing the tow vehicle to veer a bit left so you correct with a little bit of right steering. Then when the big truck is beside the tow vehicle blasting your doors (and the TT is in the low pressure area beside the big truck's trailer) you start getting blown to the right and have to correct left. In that same scenario with a 5er, that phenomenon is almost eliminated. When the big truck's blast hits the 5er, it pushes it to the right, but since the fulcrum is directly (or really close to) above the axles, it doesn't have the leverage of prying on the length of frame/hitch behind the axle.
APEowner said:A properly setup pickup truck and trailer shouldn't be hard to drive. One of the biggest problems I've seen is that there are some really badly designed and built travel trailers. If the weight distribution is off or the trailer is flexing all over the place then it's going to be difficult to tow no matter what the truck. I'd want to tow a trailer of the same make and model before I bought one. I also suggest renting a few before shelling out the cash for your own to get a feel for what you like or don't like.
Quoted for truth. Newer towables are comically awful. When I replaced my 1992 TT, I bought a good used 1992 5er from my parents. That 5er had been used by a previous owner, my parents every summer, and now me for three summers and it is in FAR better condition than their 2018 TT they bought. And I mean FAR better. Some of their cabinet doors have fallen off and the rest have hinges so bent that they don't close (super cheap stamped steel). The sliding pocket door for the bedroom won't close because it hits the floor. The bathroom wall has sagged so much that the door latch is off by about 1/2" and won't latch. Drawers in the pantry have fallen because the particle board sides let the screws pull out of the slides. The countertop and stove were installed so crooked that the fake backsplash tiles are cut at an angle to fill the gap. The overseas tires they put on gave them three flats (not exaggerating) in one 400-mile round trip. One blew on the way down so they put on the spare. The spare made it 20 miles before blowing. They stopped at a Walmart and go two new. On the way back they blew one after 100 miles, then blew another at 150 miles. Three tires in one trip. The damage those blown tires did to the interior was enough that the warranty claim meant completely stripping the interior. It required new flooring, a new couch, and one new interior wall. It took 3 months to fix. From tires blowing.
Note on TT "measurements ".
sometimes it's from bumper to hitch. Sometimes it's box length. Sometimes the model number has one of the two, and sometimes it's just a random number (I assume for advertising?)
Sometimes the same trailer from one year to the next will be measured differently. Or different models, same year, measured differently. No rules, just whatever the manufacturer wanted to do that day.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Interesting that you say that TT's are heavier now, but we found a '17 foot trailer that was weighed with extra lumber in it at 2300lb. It's a 1971 low travel trailer. So keeping under the tow rating of our Escape is easy.
It's also interesting that you think modern trailers are much lighter, as every single "small" trailer I see bragged about is over 3000lb. They don't normally talk about the fiberglass shell or other light trailers, though.
But what we camp in is way smaller than something that can be lived in for a long time- our box is just 12.5x7 on the inside. Which is actually bigger than an equivalent Casita....
Although if we could find a similar 5th wheel with the pin in front- that would be pretty cool. Would make me consider getting a Maverick.
The whole "lite" towable is a huge thing. According to their tow rating, my friends (with a Disco 2) bought a TT based on the weigh and went with an ultralite 26'. Let's just say that 26' of TT behind that short wheelbase Disco was horrific.
In the 80s/90s it was hard to find a TT over 30' that wasn't 10k gvwr. Now its common to find them with 6500-7000 gvwr.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
I hate those, too. One thing that works for us is the garage requirement. Forcing that means we get a pretty darned small trailer. Which is really nice to tow.
We took a drive down to a motorhome dealer today to check some of them out and get a feel for them. It was pretty chilly today (16 degrees) so we couldn't spend a long time, but I'm really glad we made our trip. It was eye-opening. Actually, first we went to a dealership/mechanic, thinking we could look at some, but they had precisely zero class As for sale, just a bunch in the shop. I got to talk with the RV mechanic for a while though, which really helped. Talking to him really pushed us towards a diesel pusher. If we're going to try to live in this thing for several years, we might as well do it right and stop trying to cheap out (Honestly, I'd try to do a $2000 challenge RV if I could).
At the dealership we checked out several class As and came to the conclusion that we absolutely would prefer a decent class A over a truck/5th wheel setup. The only downside is we want a diesel pusher class A with some slideouts, so we're talking more money. We actually found a used one that was absolutely perfect--incredibly roomy, two bedroom/two bathroom, tons of lower storage. It was $75K so still too pricey at the moment, but it helped us realize that there are realistic class A options out there.
They had an older gas class A there in really good shape and we got to take a gander at it as well. With no slideouts, it was just too small. We wouldn't be able to go that route. So right now from some brief searches, I think if we look in the 20-30K price range, we can get a diesel pusher that'll work for us. That takes price out of the Class A/5th wheel question; either route will be roughly the same, used.
Either way, we have a year and a half to save and learn about this. Seeing them in person just puts us one step closer.
Now that the reality of pricing has hit you the logic of truck/trailer is soon to follow. A cheap diesel pusher will cost mucho money when there is a mechanical failure 500 miles from home. Towing alone can kill a grand. And then the old "where do we sleep?" issue. But keep on learning and share the process , interesting reading and helpful to others.
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