My next bench build... 4x4 diesel van

More pipe dreams, but we'll have fun anyway. I really want this but can't imagine affording it either financially or time-wise.

I keep going back and forth between a van and a truck. I had a van when I lived in TX because I didn't need 4x4. Now that I'm up here in PA and need to get in and out of four different hunting camps (and MUST have the ability to get to work in winter weather) I have a truck with 4x4. I prefer the vans, but buying a quigley is no fun.

So let's brainstorm about how to get a diesel 4wd or awd full size van with diesel and a manual. Torch and a welder will be involved.

Plan A: Find a wasted AWD Savannah or Express and swap in a Dmax and a manual.
Plan B: Find a good E350 powerstroke and convert to manual/4wd. I had a 'stroke E350 in TX. I had dreams of putting a cable-shifted manual from something like an NPR. Mount the shifter on the doghouse instead of having a shift lever way back behind me. Plan C: find a classic van and convert everything.

ground clearance is not a huge issue. Most of my 4wd stuff (getting into camps) is not rock crawling, more like fording small streams, mud, etc.

So... go. Help me dream.

Easiest: 6.2/6.5L into an Astro AWD with an S10 4x4 transfer case.

Next easiest: Any Falcon/A100/early Chevy cab forward already equipped with a straight axle in the front. Swap axles with whatever, add engine and trans of choice.

Least easy: start with whatever, pull front subframe. Modify subframe or build new so that it attaches to chassis but only holds engine, steering box, and leaf spring mounts. Add leaf spring front axle, add transfer case, lift rear as required to match.

Lunchbox locker in a diesel E350 and call it good enough?

Didn't some of the lighter Chevy step vans come with a 4BT, SM465, and a straight axle? Getting from there to 4x4 would be pretty strighforward. I think some were also IFS, not sure how hard it is to go to stick axle on those, I don't know a lot about them.

How much difference is there in the frames of an E250/350 and an F250/350 of the same generation? What is stopping you from getting the rustiest F250 7.3/4WD you can find and dropping a van body on that frame? I guess it can't be that easy or people would be doing it all the time.

Needs Vemco V-drive.

I'd question the true need. Could you just add some serious mud terrains and a locker?

Found some 4x4 conversion Q&A here: http://www.ujointoffroad.com/4x4vanfaqs.html

I didn't save any forum links but I was looking into it a little while back. I want to say you can convert the AWD express vans to a true 4wd w/ transfer case with E36 M3 from the GM parts bin, for not a whole lot of money.

well sure enough heres some info for you.
http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/52911-Chevrolet-Express-Van-AWD-to-4x4-conversion

Then, in yet another thread on the internet, making some aftermarket truck parts work, relatively easy 3" lift, then add some 3" taller tires... you get the idea.

sorry, no knowledge to offer on the diesel conversion. How hard could it be?

If I was going full size I'd probably start with Ambulance, maybe even search out a F-Series Diesel Ambulance because I hate how vans are packaged.

If I just wanted something to sleep inside that wasnt a camper shell (the most easy option), I'd go the AstroSafari route. Some people claim an LSX swap in those can yield better MPG than stock while having significantly more power. I think that is more trouble that it's worth, personally.

Kinda easy option? Gasser 4x4 with cheap uhaul box on the back.

Diesel vans are pricey, then you gotta go and do the 4x4 swap. That seems like too much time and money.

What's the problem with a big camper shell on your current truck?

Have you seen MG Metal works van? E350 with a new Cummins common rail in it, and coil sprung 4x4. Its pretty amazing....

I like my box truck, way more room than a van and I can stand up!

oldopelguy wrote: Easiest: 6.2/6.5L into an Astro AWD with an S10 4x4 transfer case.

Too small. Need full size so I can get 1-ton and towing up to 8000-ish

Next easiest: Any Falcon/A100/early Chevy cab forward already equipped with a straight axle in the front. Swap axles with whatever, add engine and trans of choice.

Possible, however those straight axles have a significant drop to them to clear the frame. Putting in a front straight axle would lift it very high.... like 6" or more to maintain enough travel.

I was also thinking of trying to find an older Quigley conversion with a wasted engine/trans and just swapping in a straight 6 diesel/manual from an NPR, then a divorced transfer case. Problem is, quigleys don't really depreciate like one would hope.

At least the Express/Savannah were offered with AWD so the axles are already engineered. Then I could cut and paste whatever driveline I wanted in place, and the likely solution would be Dmax or 6.5TD.

BrokenYugo wrote: Lunchbox locker in a diesel E350 and call it good enough? Didn't some of the lighter Chevy step vans come with a 4BT, SM465, and a straight axle? Getting from there to 4x4 would be pretty strighforward. I think some were also IFS, not sure how hard it is to go to stick axle on those, I don't know a lot about them.

You could get a 4BT/manual in a small stepper. But see my above post for straight axle conversions on step vans. Major lifting would be involved with a solid front drive axle.

xflowgolf wrote: I'd question the true need. Could you just add some serious mud terrains and a locker? Found some 4x4 conversion Q&A here: http://www.ujointoffroad.com/4x4vanfaqs.html

Thanks for the link

I always question the true need as well, and I'm one of the first to recommend NOT going 4x4 to most people.

1- absolute need to get to work in bad snow. There is no doubt that 2wd/LSD/good tires are 90% as good on the road, but getting moving is a big issue. 2wd sometimes means getting a tow for two feet because you can't get out of a parking spot. Granted, that is only once or twice a year, but it doesn't take too many years of that to really want 4x4 so you can press a button and keep going about your day.
2- 4 hunting camps that require fording streams, steep mud entryways etc. I got stranded bad a few years ago when my 4x4 wouldn't engage. I had to walk 3 miles in the woods to get cell service, then my dad had to drive three hours to camp to pull me out because the only wrecker who could help me was an hour away and wanted $800. When you're 6 miles from anything in the woods with your rear axle buried in mud up to the bumper, 4x4 is really needed.
3- I frequently launch and pull boats at a lake where the ramp is sand. Sometimes even 4x4 doesn't do the trick.
4- frequent farm-type use; dragging trees, going into the woods to cut firewood, towing a hay wagon, pulling a tractor out of the mud
5- infrequent snowplow use... but I doubt I'll put a plow on the van.

For the sake of this discussion, consider 4x4 an absolute must. I use it. If it were just a couple times a year that I got stuck or needed a push I wouldn't do it. If it were just because "eek there's a snowflake," I would skip it. When its every few weeks that I really can't function without it, I make sure I have it.

pheller wrote: What's the problem with a big camper shell on your current truck?

The short answer is, I hate trucks.

The long answer is, I use truck-ish type things all the time; hauling lumber and other large props/furniture for my work at the theater, towing a boat, getting in and out of hunting camps, etc. But for its length, height, and wheelbase, I get 8' of cargo space with a high-altitude bed, and a cap/shell that means I have to crawl around on all fours (which at my age is a pain). With the same size and wheelbase in a van, I get 12' of storage space that I can walk around in (bent over of course). Its mostly about packaging. A full size cargo van has nearly twice the cubic feet capacity as a truck. Plus its a bit more secure than a shell.

The only downside I ever had with a van (depending on the model) was engine work, but honestly take a look under any pickup since about 2000 and tell me its any better. F350s after 2003 you have to remove the cab to do a head gasket. I had to replace spark plugs and a heater core in an F150. Four of the plugs are back under the windshield and you can imagine the profanity out of my mouth trying to reach the heater core. Conversely, the E350 diesel I had was pretty easy to work on. Most of the stuff I could do sitting in the driver's seat with the doghouse off.

Its not that vans have become easier to work on, but they sure have taken hints from the van world on how to make trucks impossible to repair under that hood. Therefore, any mechanics reasons to buy a truck instead have been nullified by the fact that trucks aren't really any easier to work on anymore.

I used to have a P30 step van and a Grumman step van. THOSE were easy to work on. The whole nose of the Grumman flipped up and you could sit on the frame inside there.

pheller wrote: If I just wanted something to sleep inside that wasnt a camper shell (the most easy option), I'd go the AstroSafari route. Some people claim an LSX swap in those can yield better MPG than stock while having significantly more power. I think that is more trouble that it's worth, personally.

True, but diesel can get almost twice the MPGs, so cheaper on fuel, and gobs more torque.

Kinda easy option? Gasser 4x4 with cheap uhaul box on the back.

Thought about it, but compared to a van it still doesn't add up to me. Still less space, but a bigger vehicle. This will be a daily driver as well.

Naw you gotta go old school. No IFS crap. Get an 80s Chevy G20. Swap in a 14 bolt full floater rear and Dana 60 front axle. You need a NP205 transfer case with a SM465 feeding it. Now for engine I like the idea of the Isuzu 4BD turbo. If that's not enough power then the 6.5 Turbo should move it well enough.

I have seen pics /video of a mercedes om603 in an 80s Chevy van. That was probably very slow though.

4x4 pickup of your choice with a slide-in camper for use when necessary?

I'm seeing various older Quigleys for as little as $3500 in PA, but a word of warning- have you driven one? I drove a couple (80s Ford and GM) a while ago, and they had all of one inch of front suspension travel and the turning radius of a berkeleying aircraft carrier. Maybe the newer conversions are better, but they really felt like the absolute minimum was done to get the front axle under there.

What's your budget? Expedition Portal frequently has stuff that fits the bill, but it's all $$$$$. If you liked your step vans, I can't see those being super difficult to stuff 4wd bits under- do you have a maximum size limitation?

TDi swap into an AMC Eagle? Am I too late to this to throw out stupid ideas?

Nothing about 4wd vans is new. In the full size van world you can find a newer AWD GMC, or look at a conversion. If you go conversion, again, there isn't anything new under the sun. If you want any decent travel you have to go up. You're going to have to cut and weld. Space is an issue. The real question is whether it's cheaper to start with a diesel, or convert to one. I suspect that long term it will be cheaper and easier to start with one, but that really depends on the diesel and what sort of shenanigans you're willing to deal with. Gregor over on Garage Journal talks about his van and the conversion. I linked to the page the van talk starts, but I warn you, his threads are more rambling than even mine, but instead of being a hack, he's actually good at stuff.

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/cto/d/quigley-cargo-van/6279351710.html

done.

In reply to ¯_(ツ)_/¯:

Absolutely agree, Quigly sucks badly.

And I do think a P30 step van would be a good in between between van and box truck. Ambo's are good as well if you dont want standing height.

mazdeuce wrote: If you want any decent travel you have to go up. You're going to have to cut and weld. Space is an issue.

I think this is the core of the problem, drop axles and IFS share a goal of getting the vehicle lower relative to the axle centerline, to put a stick axle under the front of a van (which is designed to be as low as is practical for easier loading) is going to require lifting it by roughly the amount of suspension travel you desire. I don't think you can make room up front, the powertrain can't go up very far without putting the engine through the base of the windshield and/or screwing up the load floor for transmission/ rear driveshaft clearance.

This is probably why the factory never touched it aside from GM. GM had a proper 4x4 IFS figured out something like 10 years earlier than Ford or Dodge, so it wasn't a huge engineering challenge to not make it so tall that it would be too much of a rollover risk to sell to the public.

EDIT: This line of thinking has led me to conclude that what you're really after here is a short 4x4 cabover truck, the problem there is the only one imported to the US is the Mitsubishi FUSO FG, which seems to have only been imported in the last 10-15 years and everybody with one doesn't want to get rid of it yet.

Did someone say 4x4 diesel van?

Van + LSD + good tires + F&R receivers and a detachable winch for the rare times you get stuck.

The manual transmission will be trickier than the 4x4 bit, IMHO. Some day when I have room to tear things apart and experiment, I want to figure out a way to make a column shifter operate a T-5 (or whatever). One thing I like about vans is the clear passage from the drivers seat to the rear space, without a long-ass shift lever sticking out of the floor.