New USPS mail trucks

A creative solution of, "how do we keep them from driving the van with the side-load door accidently open?"  

j_tso said:

i was thinking they should just make the front flat, like the UK's Royal Mail trucks (or a bus), but having a hood probably makes it easier to service.

I think that's a pretty cool looking vehicle.

In reply to stuart in mn :

Always the first to an accident.

Did people think the Grumman LLV looked good?

I only want the vehicles to make their jobs easier and more efficient. 

Weird question: Are the old mail trucks available anywhere? I wonder if they could make for a fun project.

In reply to J.A. Ackley :

I am guessing at some point the old LLV's will start popping up on GovDeals and sites like that. From everything my dad said about them when he was a mail carrier you probably dont want one though. 

My understanding is the new vehicles aren't electric.  I think they may not even be hybrids.  Just dumb old ICE's.  And I can't beleive they'd use ASS, or the mechanics would be replacing starters every 6 to 8 weeks.  

They did get their money's worth out of the LLVs.  Our mail carrier still drives one.  And yeah, on a 95 degree day she's more than happy to climb out of that miserable penalty box to hand you your package and chat for a hot minute.  

If the USPS mechanics are like ours, they'll gripe about having to maintain the LLVs right up until these new fangled contraptions land, and then they'll whine about how hard _they_ are to work on, and pine about the good old days doing brake jobs on the LLV's with nothing more than a chisel and a dead blow hammer.  

J.A. Ackley said:

 

From a function standpoint it is tall enough for an average height human to walk in instead of the back breaking stoop they have to do now. It has a larger carrying capacity because USPS is now a parcel moving service instead of  "letter carriers". The drivers height is set to the requirements for mail box height. The nose is low for visibility. Headlights are lower for functionality AND not blinding other traffic. The front bumper is a travesty but I am sure they take a lot of abuse pulling up to mail boxes. I would bet the new one has a top speed of higher than 60mph which was the limit for the LLV.

I bet this

was the main design factor that dictates most of it. Function over form

Then again, I have been looking into importing a '98 Multipla since they became eligible. So feel free to disregard my thoughts. 

volvoclearinghouse said:

My understanding is the new vehicles aren't electric.  I think they may not even be hybrids.  Just dumb old ICE's.  And I can't beleive they'd use ASS, or the mechanics would be replacing starters every 6 to 8 weeks.  

They'll be available with both gas and electric drivetrains. It's been quite a journey - initially, it was 90% ICE on the order. That sparked an inter-agency bunfight. Now, I think it's 75% pure electric for the first 60k vehicles and they'll all be electric starting with the 2026 order.

It's interesting how requirements have changed over the last 40 years.  But I think the new truck looks really great from a requirements prospective.  

As for looking good, it's kind of sad that we no longer want our public "tools" (buildings, cars, trucks, etc) to look good anymore.  Some of the greatest looking buildings in our country are government buildings, and that no longer will happen.  

In reply to J.A. Ackley :

No need to wonder. They're on a slightly modified S10 chassis, and have GM power train. The answer is yes. Strip as much weight as possible, slap a more capable lump under it, mercilessly beat it with your biggest lowering stick... I mean, that's what I would do, time and money notwithstanding. 

Keith Tanner said:

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

Even with temperature variations, the fact that EVs can regen is huge. 

These things look the way they do because they're designed to meet a set of specifications drawn up with knowledge of the job being done. I remember the windshield wipers are particularly robust, for example. So it looks like a Pixar vehicle. That's okay, it's not a status vehicle. It's not for us. 

A quick google search suggests that regen between mail boxes is pretty minimal, given the low torque and speeds.  So...  Kind of explains why hybrids are not useful.

It's still a good EV platform, though, since the total miles are still pretty short and the sustained speeds are also low for the delivery parts of driving.  Another quick search suggests the average mail route is 24 miles.  So planning for a pretty short 100 mile range would be pretty perfect for an EV mail truck.  And it's far, far more about weight than air drag, given the speeds that most routes entail.  

I also read somewhere that the other advance was air conditioning. The LLV rocked the dashtop electric fan. Big win for the carriers.  

aircooled said:

The0retical said:

 

...It has to do with proving 125-degree lateral visibility for 5th percentile female stature through 95th percentile stature males. ....

Lateral (side to side).  So, why so tall?  A 95th percentile male is approximately 6'2".   Sitting down, no surprisingly, they are a LOT shorter.  The seat height looks to be about the same as the truck shown on the right. I almost looks like they used that spec for someone standing, and it's still likely way to tall.

There's some info in the spec about vertical visibility as well from the seating position, but it requires some math from the 5th and 95th percentile seating position plus a specified buffer of a few inches around the edges. I don't have the design know-how to work that out. But yeah, it does appear the designers gave it the "may as well go with it" when it came to the area above the 6'2" male position.

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to The0retical :

Well, a mail carrier is basically doing a production job, so every little improvement in efficiency or ergonomics is multiplied thousands, if not millions of times over.  So from that perspective, going custom rather than modifying a stock design makes more sense. 

In theory, for urban areas, electric also makes a lot of sense. The old vehicles only got 9 MPG, but that had to be largely due to all the stopping and starting. Of course, when you factor in the problems that EVs have with extreme temperatures, the equation changes.

That's fair. As mentioned, USPS is more of a package delivery service these days rather than having the mail bucket next to them like the old days. A 50% premium for that kind of design is pretty reasonable.

Old_Town said:

I also read somewhere that the other advance was air conditioning. The LLV rocked the dashtop electric fan. Big win for the carriers.  

That and they required a bunch of noise dampening in the floor and walls. The LLV is also notoriously noisy.

clutchsmoke said:

Did people think the Grumman LLV looked good?

I regret that I have only one thumbs up to give for this comment.

In reply to The0retical :

Also , even if its a good size order , I doubt they are going to sell any to other businesses or the public.....

But the styling still looks ugly

I actually kinda like it. It's literally a public utility vehicle. It looks utilitarian, but also friendly and goofy. I would say it looks at least as good as the LLV's. 

Has anyone seen the Rivian Amazon vans yet? Those things are pretty sweet!

At 60k per, I imagine the price of a first class stamp is probably going to go up a few cents pretty soon.

alfadriver said:

It's interesting how requirements have changed over the last 40 years.  But I think the new truck looks really great from a requirements prospective.  

As for looking good, it's kind of sad that we no longer want our public "tools" (buildings, cars, trucks, etc) to look good anymore.  Some of the greatest looking buildings in our country are government buildings, and that no longer will happen.  

It's still possible to have good looking buildings. And even delivery trucks - the Rivian vans probably tick a lot of the same boxes but are cute. But did you want aesthetic considerations to be part of the decision process for a 100% utilitarian vehicle? If "we" wanted the truck to look good, "we" should have put in a bid that was cost competitive in all aspects AND looked more like whatever "we" want it to look like. Or "we" have to be willing to accept a bidder that is not the lowest based on aesthetic aspects that were not spelled out in the requirements, and that's the sort of thing that bidding requirements are designed to avoid. You can't just say "I like this one better because it's less dorky" and follow a proper bidding process that was put in place because of abuse.

In architecture, aesthetics are a greater consideration. There are still some interesting looking government buildings being built. They're not the majority, but they never were. You just remember the small percentage that you liked.

I have a hard time believing there's no regen available between mailboxes. Sure, it's nothing like coming to a stop from highway speeds, but it's done over and over and over again. It's the inverse of acceleration - it doesn't take that much power to accelerate to the next box, but you have to do it constantly. In fact, at lower speeds you'll be able to regen a higher percentage of the power expended - it's usually limited by the amount of energy you can jam back into the battery over time. And hey, any regen is better than no regen.

Chris Tropea said:

In reply to J.A. Ackley :

I am guessing at some point the old LLV's will start popping up on GovDeals and sites like that. From everything my dad said about them when he was a mail carrier you probably dont want one though. 

Having been a USPS Letter Carrier for the last two decades, I can see why some might want to own one of these death traps. From everything we've heard, LLVs will be scrapped or passed on to rural carriers routes until they can no longer be safely kept on the roads.

The other reason you won't see them for sale is because USPS is the most trusted government agency, think about how much more easily terrorists could infiltrate areas simply by driving an USPS LLV. Authentic clothing can be found on eBay and in many thrift stores so all they need is to close the front cargo sliding door and wear a uniform and they can get into most areas other than hardened security areas. 5-6 armed terrorists or a larger bomb could fit in the box section. :-(

You can find the occasional Canadian Grumman for sale, saw one one Youtube that was being fixed up as a work utility vehicle. Other than the paint scheme and some safety lighting modifications that were being removed (hazard flashers) it was the same as USPS LLVs. The only thing I'll miss is the aircraft like assembly using riveted together body panels. My 36.5 year old LLV is still in pretty good shape but it's severely lacking in today's safety requirements and the ~6" fan on the dash gives them the nickname easy bake or convection ovens.

BTW, another post mentioned the Mercedes Metri, those are terrible for mounted delivery. The doors are too wide and too high to reach out (kills an already tired/sore/damaged shoulder), one shorter carrier in our office wears a Mueller elbow brace because he's constantly bumping it on the high window frame. Also, getting in/out for taller carries is said to be difficult and the cargo area is smaller than LLVs without having the ability to install two, upper side shelves. Being able to walk into the back like UPS and FedEx vehicles is going to be my most anticipated option as I am 6'3". Better organization, easier on the body (less injury claims) saves USPS compared to piling everything willy nilly into the back or stuffing the shelves to the point that things start falling off while taking turns. Then if you can't remember that one package out of the 150-200+ for that day, you're wasting time backtracking when you find it later. LLVs are MUCH better than Metris, the only thing going for the Metris is the A/C and BT radio. Vehicle maintenance hate working on LLVs and threaten replacing them with Metris if you write them up for lesser repairs than they consider less important, only they don't have to fight with the broken/worn out issues over and over throughout the day.

The cargo light still works but the 36 year old incandescent bulb is too dim? Too bad, wear a headlamp because they HATE replacing them having to cut into the aluminum ceiling skin. You seat doesn't rotate properly so you can deliver to cluster boxes with better ergonomics, or rotate the seat so your long legs and knees can more safely exit without smacking them on the door frame? Many maintenance workers have attitudes and I get that they are tired of patching these LLVs together but carriers are even more tired of dealing with broken down equipment all day every day putting more wear and tear on their bodies. Common seat problems are foam being overly compressed, often barely attached to the frame. Seat cover material stretched or torn and the support straps under the foam broken or missing. LLVs needed to be replaced 15 years ago. :-(

alfadriver said:

As for looking good, it's kind of sad that we no longer want our public "tools" (buildings, cars, trucks, etc) to look good anymore.  Some of the greatest looking buildings in our country are government buildings, and that no longer will happen.  

Yes. Compare it with the British version: The American vehicle has better sightlines looking for kids and such, and may be easier to work on, but the Brit is far better to look at. The USPS is the embodiment of what a bureaucracy will come up with if looks are no concern. 

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

Well, what a defense contractor will come up with when given a set of specifications that don't include "make it look cute, okay to ignore sightlines". And it's actually one of the better looking ones that came out of the competition - they all shared the huge windshield and protruberant bumper/nose, driven by functional requirements.

Note that the Royal Mail van posted earlier seems to be a prototype that was undergoing trials in 2017. It would have taken a lot of front end damage if it was deployed at scale - it's a cool concept but does not meet the needs of the users.  The Royal Mail does have about 5000 electric vehicles, but they look like this and are missing a lot of what Jesse is looking forward to.

I think it's cool that the platform was built for both gas and electric. It gives a lot of flexibility depending on initial use goes.

The Rivian Van is a good example of better on paper then reality. They get terrible mileage. Reports of 50-75 miles on a charge are common. Not every area has charging network necessary, so only more progressive areas like west coast cities have them, and usually only in big facilities. As a result, many large Amazon facilities have a mix of Rivians, Dodge ProMaster and Morgan Olson F59. That's not to say the Rivian doesn't suit it's purpose awesomely (it's got a lot of high-tech features that make using them much easier) - from what I understand delivery drivers love them, but more that they are an addition to the fleet, not a replacement of it. 

So the new USPS trucks flexibility is nice in that they can put the same truck in downtown DC as they've got in Norton, Kansas but one is electric and the other is gas. 

My main worry is that Oshkosh will build these things with todays tech, or even yesterday's tech, but never update them.