https://hackaday.com/2020/01/07/dmca-locked-tractors-make-decades-old-machines-the-new-hotness/
It looks like Farmers love new tech. They like auto steer, GPS etc.. They don't love having to get a computer out to fix anything or on the newest stuff wait(because they are locked down) for a tech from the dealer..... Up time win it.
I know we talked about this a long time ago, just interesting to see some of the market reactions.....
Thanks for posting this, FBC.
My brother is a farmer, and has 6 large tractors. Four are from the 70's and 80's, the last two from the 2000s. Electronics tech has made its way in with gps tracking for both record keeping and autosteer. I would imagine that the engines are computer controlled also. The nearest service is over an hour away, so if something goes wrong you are left with expensive repairs no matter how you look at it. Coupled with the fact these machines are used in dirty, hot, and rough conditions.
I struggle with these same electronics on the machinery I build. We are now pushing 30 years on PLC controllers and interface panels. When you can find a replacement unit for a machine that is that old we no longer have a laptop that will run and download the programming software. Its tough to tell a customer that even though his machine is in good shape he needs an electronic upgrade that will run into the 1000s.
Fueled by Caffeine said:
I read that article in the Strib yesterday as well, I thought it was pretty interesting. John Deere 4000 series tractors are also popular with collectors who aren't using them for work, so I suppose this makes them doubly desirable.
I love old tractors. Why i own like a half dozen of them.
Read up on John Deer copyright laws and the fight for owners right to repair and you'll see why old is desirable.
https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-farmers-right-to-repair/
D2W said:My brother is a farmer, and has 6 large tractors. Four are from the 70's and 80's, the last two from the 2000s. Electronics tech has made its way in with gps tracking for both record keeping and autosteer. I would imagine that the engines are computer controlled also. The nearest service is over an hour away, so if something goes wrong you are left with expensive repairs no matter how you look at it. Coupled with the fact these machines are used in dirty, hot, and rough conditions.
I struggle with these same electronics on the machinery I build. We are now pushing 30 years on PLC controllers and interface panels. When you can find a replacement unit for a machine that is that old we no longer have a laptop that will run and download the programming software. Its tough to tell a customer that even though his machine is in good shape he needs an electronic upgrade that will run into the 1000s.
I'm running into this problem at work with some old dyno control equipment. We can cannibalize one system to save others, but eventually we'll be out of parts and need to spend big bucks on an upgrade.
John Welsh said:Read up on John Deer copyright laws and the fight for owners right to repair and you'll see why old is desirable.
https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-farmers-right-to-repair/
yeah, between DMCA, right to repair, and companies like Tesla with zero parts aftermarket.. there are major question marks on how cars and machines are going to be handled going into the future.
stuart in mn said:Fueled by Caffeine said:I read that article in the Strib yesterday as well, I thought it was pretty interesting. John Deere 4000 series tractors are also popular with collectors who aren't using them for work, so I suppose this makes them doubly desirable.
The John Deere 4440 is the Miata of tractors around S.C.
spacecadet said:John Welsh said:Read up on John Deer copyright laws and the fight for owners right to repair and you'll see why old is desirable.
https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-farmers-right-to-repair/
yeah, between DMCA, right to repair, and companies like Tesla with zero parts aftermarket.. there are major question marks on how cars and machines are going to be handled going into the future.
And down in his barn, my uncle preserved for me an old machine, for fifty-odd years.
be the uncle.
Anyone want to buy an Allis Chalmers D17?
It's been years since the right to repair movement started. I can't believe we're still at it.
You see the same thing with Apple doubling down on repairing or refurbishing their products. They sue, pressure platforms into delisting items, make deals with recyclers to scrap them, strangle supply lines, and anything else they can get away with.
I'm a bit surprised other players in the heavy equipment industry hasn't responded by offering to sell the software diagnostics suite, and charged an SMA for it, yet.
I know service and parts is where they tend to make their money, but they can't keep this up indefinitely.
In reply to spacecadet :
Rush's song Red Barchetta comes closer and closer to being a reality every day.
But, but, but modern technology is sooo much better.
I'll stick with the old stuff. We still are logging with '40s Caterpillar D2 and D4 bulldozers. When it comes to brutal work like that, the less sensors and computers and BS to go wrong, the better.
In reply to NickD :
Especially when they quit working in the worst possible spot
In reply to NickD :
The problem with farming is how it scales. When you're not quite large enough to compete with mega industrial farms but you're not a hobby farmer, you're boned.
A lot of mid sized farms are really working every inch of what they have to continue to exist. In order to do that efficiently they need the kind of tech that is offered by these companies.
Around me there's a couple of farms that share in the cost of the really expensive machinery (combines mostly) then, when it's time to harvest, they run it in a loop and run it for all it's worth, even into the evening. It's not that they couldn't do that with an older combine, but it would be a lot harder on all of them and the yield would likely be smaller. Those seemingly marginal percentages can really make all difference to the mid-sized farms.
I'd be pissed if the expensive combine broke down in the neighbors field before it got to mine and John Deere told me "It's Saturday evening, we don't work Sundays. I'll have someone there Tuesday" when I could fix older equipment on Sunday and write off less of the crop.
Meanwhile Super-Mega-Industrial-Corporate Farm pulls out the other subsidized $400k combine and keeps going.
The guy that rents our farm uses a 70s era John Deere. He bought it new. It now has about 25000 hours on it.
spacecadet said:John Welsh said:Read up on John Deer copyright laws and the fight for owners right to repair and you'll see why old is desirable.
https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-farmers-right-to-repair/
yeah, between DMCA, right to repair, and companies like Tesla with zero parts aftermarket.. there are major question marks on how cars and machines are going to be handled going into the future.
"Right to repair" is the good thing. Service information and the tools to do it must be made available to anyone, at reasonable expense.
It would be a different story if John Deere was forced to comply to the same laws as automakers do.
Tesla is exempt because a failure on a Tesla won't result in an increase in emissions. RTR is based on the idea that if cars were not able to be maintained, pollution would increase.
spacecadet said:John Welsh said:Read up on John Deer copyright laws and the fight for owners right to repair and you'll see why old is desirable.
https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-farmers-right-to-repair/
yeah, between DMCA, right to repair, and companies like Tesla with zero parts aftermarket.. there are major question marks on how cars and machines are going to be handled going into the future.
This is one area where people should be overjoyed for the OBDII regulations. What the tractor companies are doing is specifically illegal for car companies WRT the powertrain. Which is why the standard OBDII system was created in the first place. Dealers are not allowed to have a monopoly on car fixing.
Not sure about the aftermarket, but given the CARB and EPA laws surrounding criteria emissions and aftermarket parts- I'm pretty sure banning the aftermarket is illegal as well. How Tesla has not gotten into the rest of the vehicle diagnostics this is unknown- but they have challenged the whole vehicle distribution system (which OEM's want to get rid of, too, FWIW).
The only thing that will prevent small mom & pop repair shops are the lack of people willing to learn how to deal with the various interfaces. Those small shops are already willing do drop HUGE dollars on all the mechanical tools- so adding the computerized ones isn't a massive stretch. Lack of people who want to do that is a problem all over the place.
Seems like farmers need SEMA to step into the hole.
In reply to alfadriver :
There was a recent thread on iATN's discussion forums about shops that operate without service information. Some people apparently just wing it and call Identifix when they run out of wing it. (I interviewed at a place, too, where the owner said they didn't subscribe to any services because "if someone knows what they're doing, they don't need that." I did not take the job.)
Personally, I find it crazy to the point of recklessness. This is where you get people who find out the hard way that, say, you do not try to rotate an engine with the crank pulley bolt loose. Or loosen said bolt without cam and crank locking tools in place.
Interesting articles. Makes me respect what’s left of the small family owned farms and what they have to go through to survive even more so.
Knurled. said:spacecadet said:John Welsh said:Read up on John Deer copyright laws and the fight for owners right to repair and you'll see why old is desirable.
https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-farmers-right-to-repair/
yeah, between DMCA, right to repair, and companies like Tesla with zero parts aftermarket.. there are major question marks on how cars and machines are going to be handled going into the future.
"Right to repair" is the good thing. Service information and the tools to do it must be made available to anyone, at reasonable expense.
It would be a different story if John Deere was forced to comply to the same laws as automakers do.
Tesla is exempt because a failure on a Tesla won't result in an increase in emissions. RTR is based on the idea that if cars were not able to be maintained, pollution would increase.
I should have expanded that thought a bit more. I was referring to the fight against right to repair. but yeah, we're on the same page, I just chose poor wording.
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