Patriotism

fast_eddie_72 wrote: [when I look at the American Flag] I like to pause for a second and look at it. Just take a moment to be grateful. I've been one lucky guy. Really glad I was born here. I love America. I have ideas about things, and some other Americans have different ideas. One of the great things about America is we're free to have different ideas. Sometimes I think we need to remind ourselves that we're Americans first. I don't have much respect for people who run other Americans down for their views. I can do without Keith Olberman or Rush Limbaugh. Disagree with anyone you like, but don't make it a personal thing. Those are fellow Americans you're talking about. And typically, you're talking about the ones who have taken the time to express their views about what they think the country should be while serving in some capacity. United we stand- even with the Americans you disagree with.

+an unwriteable number of zeros

carguy123 wrote: But have you ever thought it would have been like to be one of the first Americans? There was no safety net. We know now that it worked out for them, but they didn't.

Carguy, sometimes I think youre nuts and a jerk, and other times I want to shake your hand, pat you on the back, and buy you a beer...what kind of beer will you be having tonight, cuz for this thread and the post above, the next one is on me.

There is a tiny little voice in the back of my head that tells me; a few centuries ago, a bunch of dudes got fed up and said enough, and went on a new path, just like you said, without knowing where it went. They called themselves Americans. I call myself American, and wonder when I will also say enough? Is America a pile of soil, or is it a CONCEPT ? Everyday something reminds me of how fortunate I am to have the opportunity to thrive here, and that tolerance and forward thought (at least in a global comparison) is a cornerstone to that opportunity. Im amazed and humbled that there are so many others that have a variation of that same appreciation and who are compelled to operate under the same tolerant and progressive nature. And I am equally excited that while there are some who may have different views, we are all free to disagree, and sometimes through disagreement, compromise can be beneficial to all.

Yet Im saddened when I think about the fact that there are people in OUR nation who may not have a sense of collective, may not be tolerant of others, may not want progress for our country, and in general have a separate, self serving agenda- and it seems like some of them may be calling the shots. That little tiny teesny weensy flicker of a voice in the back of my head sometimes begins wondering where a new pile of soil may be found?

I am still hopeful for my country. And Im proud to call it mine.

joey48442 wrote: Just to make sure I got this right, If you support the gubment from 200 years ago, your a patriot, And if you support the current gubment your an idiot?

Well, I don't think anyone would say that. A lot of folks- good Americans- have kind of convinced themselves that they are right. Not only that, they honestly believe that the “other side” (a manufactured group- they are other Americans who have different ideas about things, but we’re all supposed to be on the same side) are a threat to the future of our country. And make no mistake, these people are on both sides of the political spectrum.

Its kinda funny in a way how everyone lately likes to talk about the Founding Fathers and somehow try to divine what they would do in our current situation. I’m not sure why people do this. I guess they figure if they can make a case that “their side” is more in line with the Founding Fathers it somehow makes them more “right” or more American. Of course, the greatest gift the Founding Fathers gave us is self-governance and a dynamic system of continually evolving law so we can accommodate the needs, desires and wishes of an ever changing population. So what they would have done in a bygone era isn’t really germane to our discussion. We are doing as they intended governing ourselves right now.

Some of these men held slaves. None of them seem to have believed women should have a vote. They were products of their time just like we are. The ideas they presented are still working today. But we have certainly changed many things.

We all have the right to vote, and many of us exercise it as the Founding Fathers intended. A while back we elected Republicans to the White House and both houses of Congress. A lot of Americans were pretty sure it was the end of civilization and our great country would crumble. No doubt, we’re bruised right now, but crumble we have not. Most folks would agree at this point that we made some good moves and some bad moves during that time.

Enough folks thought it was time for a change that we elected Democrats to the White House and both houses of Congress. A lot of Americans are pretty sure it is the end of civilization and our great country will crumble. I suspect it will not.

Just my opinion, for what it’s worth, but the only real threat to America I see is this need to make out like other Americans who disagree with you are a threat to our future. Forgive me if I repeat myself. I only have a very few ideas.

We have people like Olberman and Beck profiting from and encouraging that belief. I don’t have any time to waste on anyone whose agenda is to turn American against American. These people have done more harm to our country than any terrorist could ever dream of doing. The idea that people would voluntarily spend their time watching people who profit from this kind of rhetoric is shameful to me. These are people who spend their whole day thinking of seemingly reasonably ways to characterize people who disagree with them as some sort of dangerous threat. These are people who have made it their job to turn American against American. I didn’t look up “traitor” in the dictionary, but I would suggest it would be a fair description of these people.

Remember, united we stand folks. Next time a voice on the radio or television tells you otherwise, exercise your right to turn them off.

z31maniac wrote:

CaptainSpaulding wrote:

3Door4G wrote: On the OPs point, I've seen plenty of immigrants who say they're proud to be American. Lots of them are told they can't practice their religious/cultural freedom because the "true Americans" feel that anyone who doesn't act like them is a threat to their country somehow. I wouldn't expect people who are discriminated against and told they're a threat to feel like they really belong.

Example please. Tow words. Merry Christmas. Two more. Under God. Seems that the "true americans" religious beliefs are under attack more so than any other religion.

Wait, so because I don't believe in mythical life saving Zombies, I'm not a "true American?" Would you like an opportunity to retract that statement or are you showing some more of that famous religous tolerance? Oh, and "Under God" wasn't added to the pledge until 1954, 60 years after the "Pledge" was composed.

Wait.. No I would not like to retract that statement. Would you like to actually read what was quoted and posted before jumping the gun and getting overly offended. The use of "true americans" was used by the person that I quoted and not by me. I dont see anywhere in my post that I stated any kind of religious belief. I figured that the use of "" would be a pretty big frickin clue that I QUOTED some one esle and that those are not my actual words.

Pretty sure that even mythical life saving Zombies understand what a quote is.

The person that I quoted stated that only immigrants are being told that they can not practice their religoious beliefs/freedom and I simply pointed out that ALL are being descriminated against.

Frickin rocket science aint it.

alfadriver wrote:

CaptainSpaulding wrote:

3Door4G wrote: On the OPs point, I've seen plenty of immigrants who say they're proud to be American. Lots of them are told they can't practice their religious/cultural freedom because the "true Americans" feel that anyone who doesn't act like them is a threat to their country somehow. I wouldn't expect people who are discriminated against and told they're a threat to feel like they really belong.

Example please. Tow words. Merry Christmas. Two more. Under God. Seems that the "true americans" religious beliefs are under attack more so than any other religion.

Under God was added to separate us from the Godless Communists. was a poor add to anything to do with the US. No matter what higher being inspired the documents that were written for us, one of the very first things it says is that: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Putting "Under God" on government documents and coins violates that, IMHO. One should not need to recognise a God to be an American. Merry Christmas isnt' under attack, if you keep it on your house and in your church. When you put it on the county courthouse, it is under attack, as it should be. As a govenment, we are not supposed to recognize a single religion, but also do not repress any, either. So you can praise whatever God you wish to praise, but not on tax payer property. The only religious beliefs that seem to be under attack right now are Islam, since they are being protested to not build on their own land that happens to be near the World Trade Center. "True Americans" keep their religious beliefs in their churces and homes, and leave it out of government, as intended. These are examples of people yelling loudly for you to get upset, and that's all it does.

See above post.

Assume. Makes ass of u and me

alfadriver wrote: I know it's cool right now to hate the govenment, and belive that everything the govenment does is bad, and a waste of money, since private enterprise should be able to do it better. But someting to think about- with out the US govenment: We would not have gone to the moon and returned safely to the earth. As a side benefit- we also would not have cable or satillite TV, since most of the satillite development happened at NASA, as have most of the lifting devices. We would not have GPS. 30 years ago, when someone said we are going to put 24 satillites up to tell you where you are- would have seemed like a waste of money... but it looks pretty good. We would not have the interstate highway. Heck, we would not have highways at all. Well, we *might * have a patchwork of toll roads that would probably be hard to deal with. We would not have the US auto industry- without a great road system, what would the demand be. We would not have a railroad system. We would not have so much cheap stuff- both railroads and roads make it very easy to move things within the US. We would not have the interenet- well, we might, but it probably would be like the toll road system, and the systems may not be compatable with themselves. but the interenet was fully started by us as a whole. We would not have nuclear power or arms. The beginning of the atomic age was fully funded by the govenment, and probably would not have been as capable as it is without heavy government investment. We would not have a solid power grid - see the toll roads again. We would not have dams around the country providing cheap energy for us as a whole. We would not have public schools. Without the schools- the interent would not have started (was mostly started in the public university system), the atomic age would not have started (Chicago, UC Berkely and other universities did a lot of the core research and development). We probably would not have jet planes to carry us to various places. Without govenment investment into war planes and development, air anything would have been pretty slow to develop. We would not have cool underseas research vessels, since they are direct decendants to subs that our govenment paid for and developed. We probably would not have clean air, water, and soil, since it's cheaper to pollute.... Are we perfect- no, we are man, we can't be perfect. Are any of the above that great now? Of course not- none of them were even perfect when implemented. Do they make our lives better? oh, yea, without a doubt. So when you go to France and they brag about their large number of nuclear plants that power their country, you can be a proud American that it was US that started that. When you go to Germany, and they brag about their environmental movement- you can be a proud Ameican to KNOW that it all started here in the US. When you fly across the country in your US made Boeing 757, you can be a proud American to know that much of the development that made air travel possible and safe was developed right in our own country, with our tax dollars. And when you are downloading the GPS data from your most recent autocross run, you can be a very proud American to know that your tax dollars made that even possible in the first place. Our government isn't evil, it is us. We let it do what it does. We get convinced that the other side is so evil that the sky will fall. When we let government get out of hand, it's 100% our fault. But it's equally to our credit when it does good. Just don't forget that. Eric

It amazes me how many people have forgotten all of that. The United States are what "We the people" make it, not the Government.

To me a Partiot is someone who tries to make things better not someone who blindly follows what they are told by those in "charge" and not those who are the polar opposite where everything is bad. Take some responsibility and get involved, other wise go home and be quiet.

alfadriver wrote: Our government isn't evil, it is us. We let it do what it does. We get convinced that the other side is so evil that the sky will fall. When we let government get out of hand, it's 100% our fault. But it's equally to our credit when it does good.

Well I could have saved myself a lot of typing and just quoted your post. Well said.

alfadriver wrote: Our government isn't evil, it is us. We let it do what it does. We get convinced that the other side is so evil that the sky will fall. When we let government get out of hand, it's 100% our fault. But it's equally to our credit when it does good. Just don't forget that. Eric

I doubt you'll find anyone who will dispute (your list); government (as defined in the Constitution) was intended to perform specific functions - at the behest of the states.

You are absolutely correct that it is the citizenry who are to blame for the slow-creep of an encroaching bureaucracy. They are finally waking up and are voicing their concerns; that scares those in power and the "elitists" who pray at the altar of government. Too bad for them.

People don't advocate the elimination of government; they want to reclaim the personal responsibilities they have abdicated to government - they have more faith and trust in their personal judgements than those who are supposed to represent them.

It is good to see voters exert their influence and force their elected representatives to perform as expected; if they do not, they are out. Accountability is a beatch.

Let's not forget that, either.

Slavery, why does everyone leave that out when they talk about our founding principals?

EricM wrote: Slavery, why does everyone leave that out when they talk about our founding principals?

ding!

Joey

I'm ashamed of America right now. You're allowed to be ashamed of something you love, aren't you? It's hard to feel ashamed by something you don't love. It's OK to criticize your country. You don't get better by constantly patting yourself on the back for being so berkeleying great.

America is just a bunch of people who share the ideals of freedom and liberty and justice. We may well go broke, descend into a fiscal nightmare and get pushed off the world's center stage. But you know what? We've been there and we made it out. Nothing we can't fix, and hell, we could be the poorest nation on earth and still be awesome.

Our ideals are more delicate and once you start giving them up it's very hard to get them back. If a traitor is someone who betrays their cause, and the cause of America is justice, freedom and liberty (and equality), think about what we've allowed to happen as a response to 9/11 and what that makes us all.

For berkeley's sake the president ordered the assassination of an American citizen without involving the judiciary! We torture people using techniques we've prosecuted people as war crimes for! We've held prisoners in an offshore prison without trials for YEARS! We're telling the catholics they can't build a church 5 blocks from ground zero even though they've renounced the attacks (funny how that sounds when you substitute catholics for muslims)!

Some of the responses to 9/11 made us safer, but almost all of them make us a little less worthy of our national pride. A patriot doesn't throw what they believe in under the bus because they're scared of some berkeleying terrorists. So, yeah, I'm ashamed.

I'd rather be true to what the country stands for than fit Glenn Beck or Keith Olberman's idea of what a patriot is.

joey48442 wrote:

EricM wrote: Slavery, why does everyone leave that out when they talk about our founding principals?

ding! Joey

wrap your brain around the fact that not all slaves were African...some were white europeans/other colonists who sold themselves to absolve debt!

4cylndrfury wrote:

joey48442 wrote:

EricM wrote: Slavery, why does everyone leave that out when they talk about our founding principals?

ding! Joey

wrap your brain around the fact that not all slaves were African...some were white europeans/other colonists who sold themselves to absolve debt!

Ummm...does that make it ok?

wrap your brain around the fact that not all slaves were African...some were white europeans/other colonists who sold themselves to absolve debt!

Did indentured servants count under the Three-fifths Compromise?

CaptainSpaulding wrote: Wait.. No I would not like to retract that statement. Would you like to actually read what was quoted and posted before jumping the gun and getting overly offended. The use of "true americans" was used by the person that I quoted and not by me. I dont see anywhere in my post that I stated any kind of religious belief. I figured that the use of "" would be a pretty big frickin clue that I QUOTED some one esle and that those are not my actual words. Pretty sure that even mythical life saving Zombies understand what a quote is. The person that I quoted stated that only immigrants are being told that they can not practice their religoious beliefs/freedom and I simply pointed out that ALL are being descriminated against. Frickin rocket science aint it.

I apologize for misinterpreting your post.

paanta wrote: ...We're telling the catholics they can't build a church 5 blocks from ground zero even though they've renounced the attacks (funny how that sounds when you substitute catholics for muslims)!....

A better analogy might be to say: Telling the Catholics they can't build a church 5 block from a middle school even though they've renounced the church molestations.

I also see a strange trend of hypocrisy in some of the action of the US since 9/11 (although I am pretty sure it has been going before that less obviously).

Patriotism is a tricky word. I think there are many people who have very different definitions. For some it seems to be waving a flag and supporting the troops (honestly, is there anyone who doesn't?!), but I think there is more to it then that.

Opposition and criticism of the government is an essential part of this country and in reality is a part of Patriotism. I think it was Jefferson who said the fear of revolution by the people are an essential aspect of keeping the government in check. Of course revolution at this point is a bit unrealistic.

4cylndrfury wrote:

joey48442 wrote:

EricM wrote: Slavery, why does everyone leave that out when they talk about our founding principals?

ding! Joey

wrap your brain around the fact that not all slaves were African...some were white europeans/other colonists who sold themselves to absolve debt!

Firstly, no one said anything about African slaves, just slavery.

Secondly, could you show the proportion of those who entered freely into slavery vs. those who were taken against their will? I am just curious.

My point was that whenever anyone references our founding fathers they leave out all the nasty, gross, unethical parts. Like the part about Washington draining the US Treasury by writing checks to his own bank account just before he left office.... Or Franklin sexing up his house servants and making his guest wait for him in another room. So their founding "principals" were much different than our own principles today.

914Driver wrote: Inspiring post Carguy, but a question. How in 200 years have we gone from what you describe with no safety net to the gimme, gimme, gimme society that votes for a man because he's going to up their monthly free stipend or pay the mortgage? What became of the patriotic ethic that made one proud of a day's work, proud to stand up and be counted? What happened to the family unit?

One word - Kennedy. At least as far as the gimme, gimme, gimme part.

Lincoln was the pres that destroyed the states Rights and Kennedy destroyed the states Will. Both the worst 2 presidents in the nation's history. If they hadn't been assassinated (coincidence or great forethought?) most people wouldn't remember them fondly.

The addition of the Welfare system slowly but surely took out incentive and pride. There are 4th, 5th & 6th generation welfare families who never even consider getting a job and why should they. They are living the American dream, no work and yet being supported. No, they won't ever live in a mansion, but they don't aspire to that other than theoretically.

Normal is what is happening to you, but people seem to have lost the hope they can do more than just a little better than normal. Where are the Horatio Alger stories? Well, there's Bill Gates but he got there by tromping on the backs of other people and it's only in the past few years, when he's decided to be philanthropic, that he's not been seen as the villian so we don't have any true heros to hold up to people.

914 Drive I understand where you are coming from because so many people both on and off of welfare no longer aspire to work their way up the ladder. They don't even think they can - and the present circumstance don't help the matter. But right now is the best opportunity you'll ever have in your lifetime to make it big.

Most of you younger guys will hate me for this next statement but the older guys will totally understand. I think the lack of a draft or some sort of compulsory military service was a key turning point in the loss of pride as well as a lowering of the skill sets of many of the less motivated people (productivity) and lack of respect. Once upon a time all young men in America had to serve in the military. As a young man I looked upon it as an intrusion in my life. I felt I could get so much further ahead by not having to stop my life to go into the military, plus it was the 60s and there was that little Viet Nam thing going on. I didn't go, it kept me in college (which I wouldn't have done without that "incentive") and oddly enough I worked in a field that directly supported the military and thought nothing of that. While I saw more than a few of my friends killed I also saw a lot more of my friends change. Not change like the Great Obam (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain) promised, but actual positive and personal change.

They grew up, they became responsible, they had skill sets that allowed them to make a decent income and give them an upward path. Gangs? What gangs? Any around were junior gangs as all their older members were put into the service and learned respect. They didn't go back to the gangs afterwards.

The money spent on the military was money well spent because it bought more than just the ability to fight wars, it bought self respect, respect for others, a pride in your country, it trained most of our work force, caused others to get an education,

We don't really have a need for a huge military presence, but way before my time there was the Civilian Conservation Corp. They built many of the roads, bridges and parks you enjoy today. The concept was to give the people a job so they could survive today (there was a depression going on then too), but also to give them a skillset so they could survive tomorrow. It worked. Something along those lines could be adapted to our present day military so that we not only had the readiness capabilities but so that we could also build our futures. But then I think jail should be a punishment so that people have a bigger incentive not to do the crimes and therefore I think the prisoners should be doing unpaid work so that they pay back part of what they've taken away and also learn skills. But that's just me, I'm logical.

If you'd like to see a fine example of the difference compulsory military service can bring to pride and a nation's productivity you have only to look to Israel.

Conspiracy theorists will say the govt has breed the will to aspire out of us. I've never been a conspiracy theorist, well except for the Kennedy assasination, but then I live in Dallas and know several people who saw the man on the grassy knoll. He may not have shot, but he was at least the spotter or the back up man. But lately with the benefit of being able to see the effects of historical incidents I've begun to wonder. This present day crisis was spoken of as a goal to work for by the Kennedy brothers. Don't believe me, then read the newest book on the Bay of Pigs. They used actual White House transcripts for part of their dialogue in the book. This part was in there and they reference how to confirm it. Keep in mind this book was written way before the present crisis.

My nod towards the possibility (not a belief) that there could be a conspiracy is the fact that I've learned that the workings of the govt are manifest and complex enough to hide a hundred conspiracies both great and small. Government representatives were originally designed to be a short term job not a career. Once anything becomes a career the careerist will work to improve his/her position. Hence my argument for term limits. We want people representing us and not themselves. Now all I need to do is mention Hitler to totally kill this thread. Mentioning conspiracy theories, even to cut them down, or Hitler is guaranteed to kill any internet thread.

So let me mention one other controversial topic. Church is also a positive influence on society. No matter your beliefs, if there's not a God then man needed to invent a God for mankind to exist and grow in a more peaceful manner. Many would argue that without the church or a shaman tribes couldn't have existed long enough for mankind to grow to the technological levels we have today. They say we'd have stayed in to small war like tribes fighting each other.

Ten Commandments? Wrong or a good pattern for life? Common sense I'd say.

I won't subject you to my religious beliefs other than to say I'm not a Catholic because to me they're a shadow government trying to control the world at large rather than just a single country. (whoops another E36 M3storm), but remember the Middle Ages and how long the world didn't progress? That was when the Catholic church was at it's height of influence. So churches aren't automatically a good thing, remember David Koresh? Many on this list still talk about drinking the Kool Aid. But even with those examples churches bring more good than harm and have a stabilizing effect on their members and the countries that allow them. Yup, back to being proud I'm an American. I'm proud that we have the right to worship as we please.

I saw a movie last night called The Expendables. It was a total shoot-em-up movie with guns, knives, bombs, and car chases and little to no plot, but in light of this discussion I looked at it in a different way. The basic evil in the movie was a small dictatorship that totally controlled the population and while this location was fictional, more than one country like this exists and have existed multiple times within recent history. But unless we let our present government controls progress beyond the levels we are at today (remember we've been allowing the government more control into our lives since the Civil War) then we and our kids don't have to worry about a dictator. But soylent green is a possibility with the new health care bill.

carguy123 wrote:

914Driver wrote: Inspiring post Carguy, but a question. How in 200 years have we gone from what you describe with no safety net to the gimme, gimme, gimme society that votes for a man because he's going to up their monthly free stipend or pay the mortgage? What became of the patriotic ethic that made one proud of a day's work, proud to stand up and be counted? What happened to the family unit?

One word - Kennedy. At least as far as the gimme, gimme, gimme part. Lincoln was the pres that destroyed the states Rights and Kennedy destroyed the states Will. Both the worst 2 presidents in the nation's history. If they hadn't been assassinated (coincidence or great forethought?) most people wouldn't remember them fondly.

OK you lost me right there.

this is rapidly turning from a Love your country, make positive changes through peaceful demonstration and VOTING to bashing things we don't agree with.

And that is too bad.

carguy123 wrote:

914Driver wrote: Inspiring post Carguy, but a question. How in 200 years have we gone from what you describe with no safety net to the gimme, gimme, gimme society that votes for a man because he's going to up their monthly free stipend or pay the mortgage? What became of the patriotic ethic that made one proud of a day's work, proud to stand up and be counted? What happened to the family unit?

I saw a movie last night called The Expendables. It was a total shoot-em-up movie with guns, knives, bombs, and car chases and little to no plot, but in light of this discussion I looked at it in a different way. The basic evil in the movie was a small dictatorship that totally controlled the population and while this location was fictional, more than one country like this exists and have existed multiple times within recent history. But unless we let our present government controls progress beyond the levels we are at today (remember we've been allowing the government more control into our lives since the Civil War) then we and our kids don't have to worry about a dictator. But soylent green is a possibility with the new health care bill.

This entire paragraph takes away from your credibility as well :(

I wish you luck in all your endeavors, and this will be my last post in this thread.

As far as slavery goes I doubt there is a person on this forum who doesn't have at least one ancestor who was a slave. It doesn't matter what your color or background. Up until relatively recently slavery wasn't frowned upon except by possibly the slaves. But there was always an out. You could buy your way out, work your way out or you were released when your master died. I think that's what made it socially acceptable back then.

Read your bible people. Slavery is throughout the bible. Read your history books, the Romans built Empires upon the backs of slaves. We now have machines to do our slave work like running us down the drag strip at insane speeds.

Times change and Mores change, but slavery still exists in parts of the world. Just not over here unless you believe many of the illegals are held in slavery by Coyotes.

EricM wrote:

carguy123 wrote:

914Driver wrote: Inspiring post Carguy, but a question. How in 200 years have we gone from what you describe with no safety net to the gimme, gimme, gimme society that votes for a man because he's going to up their monthly free stipend or pay the mortgage? What became of the patriotic ethic that made one proud of a day's work, proud to stand up and be counted? What happened to the family unit?

One word - Kennedy. At least as far as the gimme, gimme, gimme part. Lincoln was the pres that destroyed the states Rights and Kennedy destroyed the states Will. Both the worst 2 presidents in the nation's history. If they hadn't been assassinated (coincidence or great forethought?) most people wouldn't remember them fondly.

OK you lost me right there.

Then you need to get out more and read a few more books. Study your history. When did the Federal government become more important than the States government - the Civil War. It's a fact, not believing it doesn't change it.

It's PC to think of the cause of the Civil War as slavery, but it wasn't. Slavery was just one point in the States Rights argument.

When did the modern day welfare system begin/get "perfected" under Kennedy. In another post someone mentioned that welfare was one of the top 3 budget costs, but you couldn't mess with it because it would cost too many votes. Back in the 60's the Kennedy brothers talked of using the welfare system to breed voters. You don't have to believe me you can check it out for yourself.

But suspend belief until you have facts enough to make an informed decision.

They say with age comes wisdom, but that's not true, with age comes experience. I'll take experience over wisdom any day.

I will have to agree with you that admitting in public that I went to see a Stallone movie destroys at least a little of my credibility, but my wife wanted to see it and those of you who are married know that means you want to see it as well.

But look beyond the movie part and the Stallone part. The premise was only believable because that type of evil has existed and still exists to this day.

carguy123 wrote: As far as slavery goes I doubt there is a person on this forum who doesn't have at least one ancestor who was a slave. It doesn't matter what your color or background. Up until relatively recently slavery wasn't frowned upon except by possibly the slaves. But there was always an out. You could buy your way out, work your way out or you were released when your master died. I think that's what made it socially acceptable back then. Read your bible people. Slavery is throughout the bible. Read your history books, the Romans built Empires upon the backs of slaves. We now have machines to do our slave work like running us down the drag strip at insane speeds.

So, are you saying slavery is okay? Good enough for the Founding Fathers, good enough for the Bible? Or are you saying not everything the Fouding Fathers did is right and not everything in the Bible is right?

Didn't say it was OK, I said it wasn't frowned upon back then like it is today.

I am saying using a machine as your slave to take you around a track is OK tho!

CaptainSpaulding wrote: See above post. Assume. Makes ass of u and me

I almost held back, but wanted to make my point anyway.

carguy123 wrote: In another post someone mentioned that welfare was one of the top 3 budget costs, but you couldn't mess with it because it would cost too many votes.

I think that was me, but welfare wasn't on the list. The big lines are Social Security, Medicade/Medicare and Military.