In reply to Curmudgeon:
I know. I have no idea why I put car instead of cur. 
In reply to Curmudgeon:
I know. I have no idea why I put car instead of cur.
aussiesmg wrote: Oh and in addition my $300 a month payment saves me $600 a month in fuel bills. Elantra vs Town Car None of my 20 toys has a payment though.
No offense, but that is just making justifications. Yes a new elantra saves fuel vs a town car. but you can get the same (30 mpg average ish) from cheap older cars, that cost what the down payment (or less) on said elantra is. and if you are putting enough miles on the road per month, that it saves you 600 dollars a month.. waitaminunte...
according tot he EPA, a 2011 elantra costs $2.54 to go 25 miles, and a 1997 town car (your newest of your sold towncars) costs $4.51 per 25 miles. in 25 miles you are saving $1.97, so you are saving $0.0788 per mile.. divide 600 by 0.078 and it means you are driving 7,614 miles per month, or 1903.5 per week, or 380.7 per DAY, or a 190.35 mile commute, one way. perhaps you should just move closer than 3 hours from your work place. unless you job is drive around all day.
sorry, but I LOOOOOVE breaking things down. and I was going through the idea of getting a new car, to save fuel, because I was doing 150 per day... and when I saw your numbers, it looked huge trying to save 600 a month in fuel... when I was PAYING 600 a month in fuel. I found that a 2012 chevy sonic could save me slightly more than the payment cost per month. (surprisingly the 4cyl, 2001 eclipse spyder, is not very fuel efficient...)
I then realised that while I COULD save 250-ish a month with a 42 MPG sonic (and break even).. I could also save 200-ish a month with a VW rabbit, or escort, etc.. and only be out 1K or so (less than the down payment) and then pocket the 250 a month in fuel savings.. (and by pocket, I mean put into the racecar).
People like to justify. and that bothers me. If you want a new car, buy a new car. don't try to justify it for anything other than: I want something cool and new.
What my current problem is I don't have any credit. I've tried to purchase a car before from a dealership, with cash to put down, just to be turned away because my credit is non existent.
It makes me laugh when people say "Oh, easiest way to start getting credit is going to Macys or Walmart and getting a credit card", but then I get turned away because I have no credit to get credit!
This is why I have had crap cans all my life and respect what I have. I know little snot kids who have their parents buy them cars and they thrash and crash em' and get another one.
BoxheadTim wrote: I'm not a big fan of car payments either and usually avoid them unless I want to buy something special/expensive. However in my case, I don't have much credit history in the US so I am planning to bite the bullet and buy a used car on payments simply to make my credit mix look more "normal" and bump my score. And yes, I'm looking at buying something special
Happy to hear about the 996TT as I have been looking at them for awhile now. Please post up impressions after you've had some time with it.
I don't have a problem with car payments. The wife generally has a newish car that is financed...I generally have a E36 M3ton of toys that aren't, so it works out.
As long as you can afford it, there's nothing wrong with it. It's when some guy making $30k/yr goes out and buys a $50k car for 72 months that's a problem. I had the same mentality last year until I leased a car. The payment vs risk of a repair on a used car was negligible. I was looking at paying cash for a Legacy wagon (stick too, quite the unicorn) but it was about 20k from a timing belt and had a lot of original parts. I'm only paying $250/mo to drive a brand new car with full warranty and maintenance. So for 3 years I'm paying less than the cost for just the Legacy would have been, don't risk a penny in repairs, and I was able to retain the cash. I also don't have to deal with the craigslist crackheads when I try to sell it.
SCARRMRCC wrote:aussiesmg wrote: Oh and in addition my $300 a month payment saves me $600 a month in fuel bills. Elantra vs Town Car None of my 20 toys has a payment though.No offense, but that is just making justifications. Yes a new elantra saves fuel vs a town car. but you can get the same (30 mpg average ish) from cheap older cars, that cost what the down payment (or less) on said elantra is. and if you are putting enough miles on the road per month, that it saves you 600 dollars a month.. waitaminunte... according tot he EPA, a 2011 elantra costs $2.54 to go 25 miles, and a 1997 town car (your newest of your sold towncars) costs $4.51 per 25 miles. in 25 miles you are saving $1.97, so you are saving $0.0788 per mile.. divide 600 by 0.078 and it means you are driving 7,614 miles per month, or 1903.5 per week, or 380.7 per DAY, or a 190.35 mile commute, one way. perhaps you should just move closer than 3 hours from your work place. unless you job is drive around all day. sorry, but I LOOOOOVE breaking things down. and I was going through the idea of getting a new car, to save fuel, because I was doing 150 per day... and when I saw your numbers, it looked huge trying to save 600 a month in fuel... when I was PAYING 600 a month in fuel. I found that a 2012 chevy sonic could save me slightly more than the payment cost per month. (surprisingly the 4cyl, 2001 eclipse spyder, is not very fuel efficient...) I then realised that while I COULD save 250-ish a month with a 42 MPG sonic (and break even).. I could also save 200-ish a month with a VW rabbit, or escort, etc.. and only be out 1K or so (less than the down payment) and then pocket the 250 a month in fuel savings.. (and by pocket, I mean put into the racecar). People like to justify. and that bothers me. If you want a new car, buy a new car. don't try to justify it for anything other than: I want something cool and new.
I'm sure Steve'll chime in here, but he really does drive a BUNCH of miles every day
In reply to SCARRMRCC:
He hauls people around for his job so certain cars, like a VW Rabbit, just won't cut it.
wbjones wrote:1988RedT2 wrote:I think the reference was to the $$$$$$ spent each week vs the ¢¢¢¢¢ spent bringing his lunch from homeAnti-stance wrote: Oh, and these kinda people I am talking about are the same kinda people that rag on me for driving a 95 Camry and bringing my lunch to work everyday instead of having a car loan and eating at Burger King everyday.Wow. Eating at BK everyday? Well, that certainly is the epitome of big spendin' and classy eatin'!
Yeah, I got that. 
It's just that "instead of having a Mercedes payment and eating at Chez Louie everyday" would have been a bit more powerful.
DukeOfUndersteer wrote: What my current problem is I don't have any credit. I've tried to purchase a car before from a dealership, with cash to put down, just to be turned away because my credit is non existent. It makes me laugh when people say "Oh, easiest way to start getting credit is going to Macys or Walmart and getting a credit card", but then I get turned away because I have no credit to get credit! This is why I have had crap cans all my life and respect what I have. I know little snot kids who have their parents buy them cars and they thrash and crash em' and get another one.
instead of the wally world CC I'd think your bank would be an easier place to start building your credit ( even if it's only a secured CC ) that's a start
I think I'm going to start looking down on people who have mortgages. I can't believe you people rent your house from your bank.
I have a car payment on my 2013 WRX. My wifes 2012 outback is owned outright as is our home. But according to GRM logic I am a moron with money as I have a car payment. You don't know everyone's story. Just because a new car/payment doesn't make sense to you doesn't make you better than they are for deciding to buy a new car.
T.J. wrote: I just bought a new van. I financed $20k and paid the other $50k or so with a check.
I have looked at similar vans for my M-I-Law that is in a wheel chair. Yes, they are pricey.
I bought a new 2003 Trailblazer and put $4,000 down on a total $21,000 purchase price and the dealer finance manager raked me over the coals questioning why I would put down any money - he strongly suggested I finance the whole deal. (this was back in 2003 - yes, I understand the extra cash in his pocket).
A pretty high proportion of us here are mechanically inclined. If you're not, the cost of running a 20-year-old Toyota goes up dramatically. A friend of mine loves cars but doesn't have the place, ability or tools to work on them - so everything has to be done by a professional mechanic. And that gets expensive surprisingly quickly, especially if you have the sort of job (like he does) that requires five nines of automotive uptime. Even a check engine light is a hassle, whereas for me its a quick check with a scanner. So he tends to drive newer cars, the payment is a better way for him to spend his money than repairs. Rarely NEW cars, but there is financing involved.
On my new truck, there wasn't much to save by buying used as the resale value on diesel Dodges is VERY strong and my wife's work gets us a wicked fleet discount. We either could have bought new or used for about the same price - and this way we got 50,000 miles of use for free 
We're planning on keeping it for the lifetime of the truck. As I mentioned earlier, the financing costs were so low that it didn't make sense to pay cash. So yeah, we have a payment on that thing. And when it's paid off, I'll continue to take care of it.
As for building credit - that's easy. Get a credit card, use it, pay it off when the bill comes. Costs you nothing. I went from having no credit history when I moved to the US to being able to finance a house at a low rate in two years.
There's a lot of very unattractive posturing in this thread.
SCARRMRCC wrote:aussiesmg wrote: Oh and in addition my $300 a month payment saves me $600 a month in fuel bills. Elantra vs Town Car None of my 20 toys has a payment though.No offense, but that is just making justifications. Yes a new elantra saves fuel vs a town car. but you can get the same (30 mpg average ish) from cheap older cars, that cost what the down payment (or less) on said elantra is. and if you are putting enough miles on the road per month, that it saves you 600 dollars a month.. waitaminunte... according tot he EPA, a 2011 elantra costs $2.54 to go 25 miles, and a 1997 town car (your newest of your sold towncars) costs $4.51 per 25 miles. in 25 miles you are saving $1.97, so you are saving $0.0788 per mile.. divide 600 by 0.078 and it means you are driving 7,614 miles per month, or 1903.5 per week, or 380.7 per DAY, or a 190.35 mile commute, one way. perhaps you should just move closer than 3 hours from your work place. unless you job is drive around all day. sorry, but I LOOOOOVE breaking things down. and I was going through the idea of getting a new car, to save fuel, because I was doing 150 per day... and when I saw your numbers, it looked huge trying to save 600 a month in fuel... when I was PAYING 600 a month in fuel. I found that a 2012 chevy sonic could save me slightly more than the payment cost per month. (surprisingly the 4cyl, 2001 eclipse spyder, is not very fuel efficient...) I then realised that while I COULD save 250-ish a month with a 42 MPG sonic (and break even).. I could also save 200-ish a month with a VW rabbit, or escort, etc.. and only be out 1K or so (less than the down payment) and then pocket the 250 a month in fuel savings.. (and by pocket, I mean put into the racecar). People like to justify. and that bothers me. If you want a new car, buy a new car. don't try to justify it for anything other than: I want something cool and new.
Steve is driving an OBSCENE amount of miles for his job, i think that damn car already has 60k miles on it or something.
He NEEDS the car to be rock solid reliable with no downtime, so something with a warranty and brand spanking new makes a E36 M3load more sense than an old clapped out piece of E36 M3.
I also believe he's getting significantly more than 30mpg out of the thing.
I hate the idea of buying a new car as much as the rest of the hairy chested men who like to call everyone else who does, nancies.
But it really makes sense for him.
That said, i've had two car payments in my life. One was for the Cherokee which is now paid off, and we've got a payment on the MSM.
It was worth it for the Cherokee. SO not worth it on the MSM.
Probably never doing it again.
SCARRMRCC wrote: People like to justify. and that bothers me. If you want a new car, buy a new car. don't try to justify it for anything other than: I want something cool and new.
I think this is exactly what it boils down to. Sure, a solid old beater is more cost effective than even the most fuel efficient new car. But there's no way to put math and logic behind the desire to have a new car. As long as you can afford the payment, I see nothing wrong with admitting you want a new car. It's not a purely rational decision. That said, I still don't tend to buy new, I'd rather buy something 1-2 years old that took the initial depreciation hit. We just bought my wife a fully loaded '11 Kia Forte hatch, the car we have the loan on. Could I have saved a bunch of cash and gotten her an '03 Civic/Accord/whatever? Sure. I realize there are cheaper ways for her to get to work. But she works hard and likes a nice newer car. It makes her happy, which makes my life oh so much better...
nocones wrote: I think I'm going to start looking down on people who have mortgages. I can't believe you people rent your house from your bank. I have a car payment on my 2013 WRX. My wifes 2012 outback is owned outright as is our home. But according to GRM logic I am a moron with money as I have a car payment. You don't know everyone's story. Just because a new car/payment doesn't make sense to you doesn't make you better than they are for deciding to buy a new car.
I think you're reading more into this than is there ... or else you're just stirring the pot ...
I haven't gotten the vibe that buying a new car on credit is bad ... just some people shaking their heads at the folk that seem to stay upside down with their car payments ( new car before the old one is payed off) or the folk that are really buying more than their income/situation can justify ( and then complain about being broke )
and a home is (supposedly ) and appreciating asset and a car a depreciating asset ... makes interest on a home more palatable ( plus the tax thing) than a car loan interest
Keith Tanner wrote: A pretty high proportion of us here are mechanically inclined. If you're not, the cost of running a 20-year-old Toyota goes up dramatically.
This is very true!
Time is worth something too. There have been many a times I was trying to fix my beater at night so I could get to work the next day. Broken bolts, rust, needing stuff after the store is closed and order only parts wore me out. Using time to work on one of the dozen house/car projects I usually have going on is a better use of limited resources to me.
I bought my 2003 Civic (new) on payments. Ten years later (6 since paying it off) and I still have it. I bought my 06 3/4 ton Chevy (2 years old at the time) on payments and paid it off a few months ago. Plan on keeping it around too.
nocones wrote: I have a car payment on my 2013 WRX. My wifes 2012 outback is owned outright as is our home. But according to GRM logic I am a moron with money as I have a car payment. You don't know everyone's story. Just because a new car/payment doesn't make sense to you doesn't make you better than they are for deciding to buy a new car.
This is a good example of why I said it's impossible to set hard and fast rules about car payments, and debt in general.
Even though we're a bunch of enablers when it comes to purchasing vehicles, I'm thankful there's a common "spend within your means" thread on this board, and an understanding that "means" can be very different from one person to the next. I haven't seen another automotive forum where someone asks about buying a car and at least half of the replies encourage the OP to spend less money than they intended.
Spending above your means is not a wise move, whether it be house, car, or anything else...
I have financed every new and used car/truck I have bought outside of parts cars. I have never had the disposable income to save up and buy things outright. In the end though, I still have all those vehicles except for 2 of them, the one I used as a trade in to get out of that loan and the other I sold to my dad.
I have a job because people take car loans. I'm happy with it.
FWIW, these days it often does make sense. If I'm buying new or slightly used, I can get a loan with such a low interest rate that it would make poor financial sense not to take the loan (IF I were buying a new or slightly used car). A car is a depreciating asset, but that doesn't really matter. If I'm buying something, I'm going to pay for it one way or the other. I might as well take the loan at 0% APR (or 1.9% or whatever) seeing as I can safely earn 3% on the market.
This whole idea of Debt=Bad is not entirely true. Debt you cannot afford is bad, but debt is not inherantly a bad thing.
mtn wrote: This whole idea of Debt=Bad is not entirely true. Debt you cannot afford is bad, but debt is not inherantly a bad thing.
Debt is merely a tool. And like any tool, it can be misused. I certainly did enough of that in my younger days.
But I kinda knew how this thread was going to go as soon as I saw the title. 
Tom_Spangler wrote:mtn wrote: This whole idea of Debt=Bad is not entirely true. Debt you cannot afford is bad, but debt is not inherantly a bad thing.Debt is merely a tool. And like any tool, it can be misused. I certainly did enough of that in my younger days.
I'm assuming you went into too much. I have the opposite problem. I never went into any (other than to my dad), and now nobody will let me go into any because I don't have any credit. I've been denied for 2 credit cards because I don't have any credit history. (Yes, I know. A good problem to have)
I'm seriously considering having my dad cosign on a ~$6000 loan with me and just get a truck or wagon, and build my credit.
nocones wrote: I think I'm going to start looking down on people who have mortgages. I can't believe you people rent your house from your bank. I have a car payment on my 2013 WRX. My wifes 2012 outback is owned outright as is our home. But according to GRM logic I am a moron with money as I have a car payment. You don't know everyone's story. Just because a new car/payment doesn't make sense to you doesn't make you better than they are for deciding to buy a new car.
That is not the same in any way at all. people that have mortgages are like people getting a car loan. people renting are like people that LEASE a car, NOT like people that buy old cars...
A housing correlation would people buying BRAND NEW houses, or 5-10 year old houses. And it REALLY does equate. at one point I had bought a house about 35 miles from work. people asked why I bought that old, small house, so far from work. THEY were paying HUGE monthly payments on their 400k houses (equivalent to a new car), and could afford it.. pretty much. I didn't have that kind of money, so I was paying for a 35K house (equivalent to a cheap used car). Others yet, decided to rent in the city I worked in (equivalent to a lease). And I guess the last group would be those that do not rent, did not buy new, or a smaller older, and farther away house: the people that live in a hotel (that would be the equivalent to renting from enterprise).
Oh god, this thread again?
1988RedT2 wrote:wbjones wrote:Yeah, I got that.1988RedT2 wrote:I think the reference was to the $$$$$$ spent each week vs the ¢¢¢¢¢ spent bringing his lunch from homeAnti-stance wrote: Oh, and these kinda people I am talking about are the same kinda people that rag on me for driving a 95 Camry and bringing my lunch to work everyday instead of having a car loan and eating at Burger King everyday.Wow. Eating at BK everyday? Well, that certainly is the epitome of big spendin' and classy eatin'!
z31maniac wrote: Oh god, this thread again?
I probably should have put this in the rant thread instead of starting a thread that probably has been discussed waaaay too much.
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